Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #109

[tresir2012]

The perpetrators in the crime I described were also sober (or largely sober) when they murdered the victim. In the case I listed, the perpetrators were in their teens / very early twenties. Their drug usage was recreational.

I think motivational themes might be more important than actual drug use as being the primary cause:

- Respect / disrespect: The older brother had 'dissed the group by running up a drug debt and by being openly flippant to the group regarding payment.

- Need for an easier target: Older brother was street tough / wise. Directly confronting him could be problematic. Younger brother was a far easier target.

- Impulsive decision making: Decision to relatively kidnap younger brother was completely on impulse with out thought to later consequences.

- Snowballing circumstances: Fear of being charged with kidnapping led to decision that murdering the younger brother was "logical" and the only way out.

In a targeted for complex circumstance type motive, the initiating circumstance would not need to be a drug debt by a third party per se. Rather, just any respect / disrespect issue, the girls seen as easier victims. Then factor in impulsive decision making and the possibility of snowballing situations where murder comes to be seen as "logical".

Sorry Crptic but I don't follow who is supposedly older brother/ younger brother in your example.?

 

[rosesfromangels]

LE has attempted to educate the public on what a quality tip is. I give them credit for that, but I still fear that 95% of what they are getting in are not helpful. Most tips by now probably elicit eye rolls, but you can’t ignore them. When they finally do catch this killer the numbers will probably read “ We received 76,437 tips in this case, and 76,436 were of no value at all. But 1 made all the difference.”

I love this post!
And one tip is all they need.
Someone is protecting the identity of the Perp, and I wish them sleepless nights and loose bowels.
Sorry, I know that’s crude, but that’s how I feel.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[tresir2012]

I agree that the time window is super small. I believe he knew exactly when he would be there and he planned to kill them and get back to wherever he was quickly in order to maintain an alibi. With that short a window, 'he was able to get in and out of the area quickly' he must have lived and/or worked nearby and had an alibi that is not as solid as it appeared.

Yes that is the only thing that fits the timeline. In, kill them and out. Only question therefore is, was it random or targeted? MOO.

 

[sunshineray]

I’ve pretty much concluded that LE (because they are humans after all) messed up in their communications to the public. I don’t necessarily fault them. People aren’t perfect. IMO, there can be a tendency in such cases to elevate LE to almost divine status with every word being revered.

But I do think in this case, LE has bungled information. In their attempts to keep some things under wraps, they’ve tripped up on trying to explain things and have ended up having to go back and contradict themselves.

Several examples. One being sketches are primary and secondary, now not the same, now maybe a combination. Another being what day the vehicle was seen at the CPS building, and implying that the girls crossed the creek in an interview but then saying the online reenactments are all wrong, and different answers when asked if PE is a suspect (yes, no he was already looked at, well yes he is but only in the sense everyone is a suspect, etc). To name a few.

Unfortunately LE’s attempt at holding some big chunks of info close to the chest has really painted them into a corner. So when seemingly simple information is put forth or asked about, they get tripped up. Enough info is being withheld that they can’t answer questions without inadvertently saying something that may need to be tweaked later. In an attempt to remain vague they state the contrary and then it’s just completely muddled.

In the end, I think a lot of what LE has said needs to be taken with a grain of salt, and I say that with no disrespect to them. They’ve changed direction but have also not been clear on several key elements of the case. Something is off. IMO. I know others have voiced the same feeling.

I’m very open to the idea that, still, not all they’ve put forth is necessarily accurate. To a certain extent, at this point I feel all bets are off so to speak. They know things we don’t, and it’s affecting the “information accuracy”.

MOO.

I think when the Sheriff spoke with Radar Online in December2018 and said FBI were "...doing 'DNA testing research,' with regards to the case." He probably wasn't supposed to release that. Another poster said in February 2019 something changed in the case, info officially available for the public was taken down and left blank...until the April PC.

I think this had something to do with it.

"...that 15 genes determine unique facial features, including the prominence of cheekbones, the distance between eyes, and chin shape. Seven of these genes are linked to the shape and length of the nose, which has been difficult for forensic scientists to reconstruct using only cranial DNA information."

Painting a Mug Shot with Genetics: A Spotlight on DNA Phenotyping

Along with the ancestral info "DNA testing research" can give, it's turned into a wealth of biometics and even health testing. IMO knowing killer is local is tied to DNA, as well as the switch of sketches.

 

[c98rich]

Has anyone considered the monster kept something that LE could not find when the girls were located? Perhaps a trophy or something? Also, the information released (or lack of) has not helped catch him. So, why not provide more to help? My belief is they have little to nothing and he will never be caught.

 

[Yemelyan]

Maybe I misunderstood your post, but you really think he could take 2 dead bodies from under the bridge, across the creek, to the place where they were found in about 15 minutes? Wasn't the combined weight of both girls close to 300 pounds? It's hard to carry a living (so, not dead weight) 50 or 60 pound child over rough terrain. So your assertion seems off to me.

If the time frame is only 17 minutes from 2.30 to 2.47 this does not give time for anything like recrossing the bridge and going down the east bank of Deer Creek and then be back near Freedom bridge at 2.47. He must have immediately killed one or both down
the hill and under the bridge then taken their bodies across the creek then left. It was that quick IMO.

 

[155etta]

I wonder about the "getting around quickly."
Police having a theory know where he was at A time and then B time, and that is a lot more info than I thought they had.
I suppose they know when he was killing the girls for TOD and various constraining factors, but that they know something about where he was after, and the B time/place being interpreted by the police as meaning BG had local knowledge.

If the vehicle leaving CPS was really BG leaving, and he could have left as late at 5pm, that is very creepy.
I assume that means the fiend was waiting in the woods for a gap between searchers to sneak his way back to the car.

This definitely points to someone local to me. If he was a drifter, he would be in and GONE!

 

[Rosegold68]

Has anyone considered the monster kept something that LE could not find when the girls were located? Perhaps a trophy or something? Also, the information released (or lack of) has not helped catch him. So, why not provide more to help? My belief is they have little to nothing and he will never be caught.

i feel he won't be caught either, but they do have something!! plenty......photo/video/audio....the LE are viewed as a bit of a laughing stock now,all that evidence and nobody in custody years later? kind of handed on a plate to them

 

[155etta]

Maybe I misunderstood your post, but you really think he could take 2 dead bodies from under the bridge, across the creek, to the place where they were found in about 15 minutes? Wasn't the combined weight of both girls close to 300 pounds? It's hard to carry a living (so, not dead weight) 50 or 60 pound child over rough terrain. So your assertion seems off to me.

A person coming from a family of believers can play a believer, and yet have lost faith long time ago. Or be in the crisis of faith. In fact, this very crisis might play the role in the murder, as the form of inner rebellion. I believe other, more significant, contributors, could be porn addiction and sexual dysfunction. JMO.

But with the faith, I think it is high tide-low tide with the BG. A truly religious person must know there is no salvation after such a sin, so it was probably his “disbeliever’s” phase when he did it. Yet Carter, knowing more than us, underscored religion, leading me to think he believes the person is a believer.

I've wondered if he mentioned religion because of something that was left with the girls, or how they were posed, a cross, something?

 

[tresir2012]

Alleged Rapist Who Killed Himself In Police Standoff Now Being Looked At Regarding Delphi Murders

Not sure if this link has been posted but I hadn't seen it before.

 

[155etta]

I now believe the crime was planned but the victims were not planned (I.e. the killer wanted to commit the crime and planned it but the girls happened to be the ones who walked into his trap). I believe this guy is a predator who fantasized about the crime. He had a spot staked out, the gear prepped to conduct the crime, and he went into those woods along that trail and those poor girls, sadly, were the ones who showed up.

However what does not make sense to me is the timing. If you were trolling for little girl victims on a weekday in those woods, wouldn’t you be there later in the day after school let out? It makes me wonder if he is somehow connected to the school system and so knew the unusual schedule for that day. A bus driver?

I also think they have DNA and just don’t have a match. Have they ever asked for volunteer swabs of community residents?

All MOO

I also think the time of day is important and that they were not in school. Someone knew that.

 

[155etta]

IIRC, there was a sign in front of the school announcing no school on Friday and Monday. No request for volunteer DNA that we're aware of, but it has been reported that they have taken DNA from people they were interested in.

Why would they take DNA if they had nothing to compare it to? Unlike some, I think they have DNA.

 

[TL4S]

If the time frame is only 17 minutes from 2.30 to 2.47 this does not give time for anything like recrossing the bridge and going down the east bank of Deer Creek and then be back near Freedom bridge at 2.47. He must have immediately killed one or both down
the hill and under the bridge then taken their bodies across the creek then left. It was that quick IMO.

Is it stated that BG was seen at the Freedom Bridge at 2:47? Is this the FSG sighting? Because I thought that happened at the Monon High Bridge. If the time frame is correct, and if FSG saw BG near the Monon High Bridge at 2:47, than maybe he saw BG after he had recrossed but before he'd left the trail to corner the girls in the woods. I don't know. I guess I haven't seen enough about the witness sightings and their times, or the accuracy of any of them.

 

[tresir2012]

Maybe I misunderstood your post, but you really think he could take 2 dead bodies from under the bridge, across the creek, to the place where they were found in about 15 minutes? Wasn't the combined weight of both girls close to 300 pounds? It's hard to carry a living (so, not dead weight) 50 or 60 pound child over rough terrain. So your assertion seems off to me.

It's approx 800 feet, 270 yards. He could have taken them one at a time to the creek edge and let the current help him. Or one dead/or injured while the other walked. I wouldn't suggest something I thought was impossible. They ended up across the other side of the creek dead and he was near Freedom bridge within 17 minutes of the 2.30 video. That's the reality that has to fit. Going back across the bridge 300 yards with two girls then down the east shore 300yds then back to Freedom bridge approx 800 yards is not possible in 17 minutes. MOO.

 

[TL4S]

It's approx 800 feet, 270 yards. He could have taken them one at a time to the creek edge and let the current help him. Or one dead/or injured while the other walked. I wouldn't suggest something I thought was impossible. They ended up across the other side of the creek dead and he was near Freedom bridge within 17 minutes of the 2.30 video. That's the reality that has to fit. Going back across the bridge 300 yards with two girls then down the east shore 300yds then back to Freedom bridge approx 800 yards is not possible in 17 minutes. MOO.

My feeling is it wouldn't be possible to kill two girls, carry one at a time or lead one across a creek, then walk the woods and trail back all the way to Freedom Bridge in 17 minutes, either. Without anyone noticing your wet clothing. I guess I'm mostly questioning the 2:47 sighting.

 

[tresir2012]

Is it stated that BG was seen at the Freedom Bridge at 2:47? Is this the FSG sighting? Because I thought that happened at the Monon High Bridge. If the time frame is correct, and if FSG saw BG near the Monon High Bridge, than maybe he saw him after BG had recrossed but before he'd left the trail to corner the girls in the woods. I don't know. I guess I haven't seen enough about the witness sightings and their times, or the accuracy of any of them.

I believe that is from a GH interview but that of course doesn't make it correct. I recall FSG saw BG twice, one on the trail and once at Freedom Bridge. So am not sure whether it is trail time or Freedom Bridge time. MOO. Theory is based on what I have best knowledge of plus speculation. He was certainly well gone by the time DG telephoned Libby and then arrived at trailhead at 3.10 approx.

 

[tresir2012]

My feeling is it wouldn't be possible to kill two girls, carry one at a time or lead one across a creek, then walk the woods and trail back all the way to Freedom Bridge in 17 minutes, either. Without anyone noticing your wet clothing. I guess I'm mostly questioning the 2:47 sighting.

No problem. 2.47 is all I have seen mentioned and I agree it is tight. It was well before Derrick arrived at 3.10 anyway. Also take into account FSG heard nothing before that presumably; and also it has not been reported that anyone heard anything AFAIK.

ETA below is a C/p from post 962 in thread 108.

"Ok - I have to withdraw anything of CE as only the Heavy article seems findable now and that does not state times. I really thought I read in MSM that she took a picture at 2:49. Can't
even find anything about seeing DG either.


2:07 Girls on bridge
2:30? LG video of BG on bridge
2:47 FSG sees BG on trail
2:55? FSG gets to MHB hears couple
3:15 DG and FSG talk at trail near parking
Going by this timeline...

So FSG saw BG after the murder? Like immediately after? Because LG video of BG was at 2:30ish and the crime took place minutes after video according to LE. Then FSG sees BG at 2:47.


Do I have this wrong? Or did FSG actually see BG immediately after the murder? "

 

[155etta]

Liberty German may have intentionally gone to the Monon high bridge on Feb 13, 2017 to meet someone from her online universe.

She thought he would be a smart teenage boy, but being cautious and a budding detective, she arranged the sleepover on Sunday, so her friend Abigail will come with her on Monday.

My hunch on Feb 14 2017 late night was that the perpetrator was a worker at the nearby meat processing plant, and he would leave the area shortly.

I discussed my hunch with local police. I suggested the man may have expected Liberty to come alone, and may have originally planned to kidnap her. His car was waiting.

This make sense to me. If they planned to meet but hadn't met before, that might be why Libby filmed him (just in case). After introductions, maybe he said, "GUYS, my car is just DOWN THE HILL". Maybe they were headed there and then got spooked, changed their minds, got freaked out and that's when things turned ugly.

 

[Boxer]

i feel he won't be caught either, but they do have something!! plenty......photo/video/audio....the LE are viewed as a bit of a laughing stock now,all that evidence and nobody in custody years later? kind of handed on a plate to them

MOO no evidence to tie to a specific person in their records or of the many they have asked for DNA samples from.

MOO If they have DNA it is mDNA -
female line, from a family not doing GED.com for their female line nor having any any recent female convicted of a felony.

 

[Kubirai]

This make sense to me. If they planned to meet but hadn't met before, that might be why Libby filmed him (just in case). After introductions, maybe he said, "GUYS, my car is just DOWN THE HILL". Maybe they were headed there and then got spooked, changed their minds, got freaked out and that's when things turned ugly.

Until this year, we didn't know about the "Down the hill" audio. It was just "Guys" ... possibly preventing identification. After 6 years, former co-workers or classmates won't remember his voice.

But if a longer audio is posted, perhaps some relative will come forward.