Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #109

[Boxer]

No problem. 2.47 is all I have seen mentioned and I agree it is tight. It was well before Derrick arrived at 3.10 anyway. Also take into account FSG heard nothing before that presumably; and also it has not been reported that anyone heard anything AFAIK.

Where is the 2:47 FSG sees BG in MSM? I have read that time too, but can not find it in MSM or primary source. I would love to see it. I was trying to put a solid timeline together, and had to withdraw everything about FSG except meeting DG at 3:14 by the parking area. If FSG walked straight back at his normal pace he would be leaving the bridge about 6 minutes earlier, 3:08.

 

[CSIDreamer]

Alleged Rapist Who Killed Himself In Police Standoff Now Being Looked At Regarding Delphi Murders

Not sure if this link has been posted but I hadn't seen it before.

Yeah, it has. But I was wondering earlier today, actually, what became of this.

 

[tresir2012]

Why can't these timings be pinned down exactly or they seem to be distrusted? I guess I don't really get it after two and a half years these things should not have changed.

 

[tresir2012]

Where is the 2:47 FSG sees BG in MSM? I have read that time too, but can not find it in MSM or primary source. I would love to see it. I was trying to put a solid timeline together, and had to withdraw everything about FSG except meeting DG at 3:14 by the parking area. If FSG walked straight back at his normal pace he would be leaving the bridge about 6 minutes earlier, 3:08.

Funny but I just edited my post and copy and pasted it from a post of yours quoting a heavy.com article in thread 108.

 

[sunshineray]

Alleged Rapist Who Killed Himself In Police Standoff Now Being Looked At Regarding Delphi Murders

Not sure if this link has been posted but I hadn't seen it before.

As far as I'm aware, linking Gray Hughes videos is allowed. In this one starting at 6:55 and going to 7:50, ONLY from there to there, Delphi murders are talked about. The rest is about the other kidnapping case so not relevant here on this thread.

Anyone have ideas on why PE would say what he did about the Delphi murders, to a total stranger while on the run from police?

Mods: I hope I posted this correctly...if not, apologies please delete.

 

[Boxer]

Funny but I just edited my post and copy and pasted it from a post of yours quoting a heavy.com article in thread 108.

I will go back, IIRC I had to withdraw the FSG timeline as someone challenged the info because Heavy.com was using a Facebook post as their source.
Can't find that original timeline in #108 anymore, (I thought I asked for it to be removed because it would be confusing.)

 

[Yemelyan]

It's approx 800 feet, 270 yards. He could have taken them one at a time to the creek edge and let the current help him. Or one dead/or injured while the other walked. I wouldn't suggest something I thought was impossible. They ended up across the other side of the creek dead and he was near Freedom bridge within 17 minutes of the 2.30 video. That's the reality that has to fit. Going back across the bridge 300 yards with two girls then down the east shore 300yds then back to Freedom bridge approx 800 yards is not possible in 17 minutes. MOO.

Okay. A standard football field is 100 yards long, no? So we are talking almost 3 of those in length. One girl is about 180 pounds (I remember this from the "missing" info disseminated by LE before the bodies were found). The other is certainly around 100 pounds more or less. Let's say you're right and he only has to transport one of them and lets imagine it's the lighter of the two. Now he has to wrangle a 100 pound dead weight across a creek and other rough terrain while keeping control of a living hostage as well, one who may be shorter than he is but weighs almost as much. He has to go across 3 football fields in 15 minutes under these conditions? I just don't know. It's more likely that what we think we know about the eyewitness testimony is off. Didn't Sgt. Holeman say that NONE of the re-enactments that are currently out there are correct?

 

[BNA]

I've wondered if he mentioned religion because of something that was left with the girls, or how they were posed, a cross, something?

Well, that is certainly possible. However, I have been thinking that it is more likely that he mentioned religion as a sideways plea for continued support from the general public in Indiana, etc.

 

[Nobody_special]

Until this year, we didn't know about the "Down the hill" audio. It was just "Guys" ... possibly preventing identification. After 6 years, former co-workers or classmates won't remember his voice.

But if a longer audio is posted, perhaps some relative will come forward.

Other way around: Down the Hill was released 2 years ago. But I agree with your premise, if longer audio (that would not compromise the investigation) does indeed exist.

 

[TL4S]

No problem. 2.47 is all I have seen mentioned and I agree it is tight. It was well before Derrick arrived at 3.10 anyway. Also take into account FSG heard nothing before that presumably; and also it has not been reported that anyone heard anything AFAIK.

ETA below is a C/p from post 962 in thread 108.

"Ok - I have to withdraw anything of CE as only the Heavy article seems findable now and that does not state times. I really thought I read in MSM that she took a picture at 2:49. Can't
even find anything about seeing DG either.


2:07 Girls on bridge
2:30? LG video of BG on bridge
2:47 FSG sees BG on trail
2:55? FSG gets to MHB hears couple
3:15 DG and FSG talk at trail near parking
Going by this timeline...

So FSG saw BG after the murder? Like immediately after? Because LG video of BG was at 2:30ish and the crime took place minutes after video according to LE. Then FSG sees BG at 2:47.


Do I have this wrong? Or did FSG actually see BG immediately after the murder? "

Hmm. I don't know, either. I'm thinking if FSG saw BG on the trail, it would have been nearer the Monon High Bridge instead of the Freedom Bridge because FSG was on his way back from the MHB when he saw DG. Unfortunately, I haven't seen if FSG stated which direction BG was heading. But if FSG never saw the girls, but saw BG on the north side of the bridge at 2:47, and he's accurate on that, than I'm a bit flummoxed. I'd probably lean more on the girls crossing the creek to avoid BG and him recrossing the bridge, waiting on the trail until nobody was watching (after FSG passed) and finally heading into the woods to cut them off near the murder site. I still think that gives him enough time to have killed them around 3pm and been done by 3:11 when DG called her phone. Timeline is VERY tight.

 

[Yemelyan]

Until this year, we didn't know about the "Down the hill" audio. It was just "Guys" ... possibly preventing identification. After 6 years, former co-workers or classmates won't remember his voice.

But if a longer audio is posted, perhaps some relative will come forward.

Am I crazy or do you have it backwards? We had "down the hill" early on and the "Guys..." part was released at the April press conference.

I don't think its likely that they will ever release more audio. I imagine that they want info such as, what was the first thing he told them, kept confidential for use in ruling potential suspects in or out.

 

[Yemelyan]

Does any of the FSG sightings/timeline info come from MSM or is all of that from sources like GH videos and interviews family members have done on podcasts, etc?

 

[tresir2012]

Okay. A standard football field is 100 yards long, no? So we are talking almost 3 of those in length. One girl is about 180 pounds (I remember this from the "missing" info disseminated by LE before the bodies were found). The other is certainly around 100 pounds more or less. Let's say you're right and he only has to transport one of them and lets imagine it's the lighter of the two. Now he has to wrangle a 100 pound dead weight across a creek and other rough terrain while keeping control of a living hostage as well, one who may be shorter than he is but weighs almost as much. He has to go across 3 football fields in 15 minutes under these conditions? I just don't know. It's more likely that what we think we know about the eyewitness testimony is off. Didn't Sgt. Holeman say that NONE of the re-enactments that are currently out there are correct?

Yes but none of the reenactments showed the girls being carried across the creek IIRC so that could be what they got wrong IMO. They were murdered within minutes of the 2.30 video.

 

[TL4S]

Yes but none of the reenactments showed the girls being carried across the creek IIRC so that could be what they got wrong IMO. They were murdered within minutes of the 2.30 video.

If he killed them on the south side of the creek, what would be his reason to carry them to the north side instead of leave them where they fell?

 

[Boxer]

Well, that is certainly possible. However, I have been thinking that it is more likely that he mentioned religion as a sideways plea for continued support from the general public in Indiana, etc.

MOO I think Carter was trying to suggest a way to get over grief. Basically he said the girls are in a better place, which is the standard way to comfort families and say the departed have gone on and transcended this pain.
MOO He was irritated, I think a CaCo Sheriff deputy blew an interview that corroborated the initial YBG sketch. "We are starting now'"

 

[Boxer]

Hmm. I don't know, either. I'm thinking if FSG saw BG on the trail, it would have been nearer the Monon High Bridge instead of the Freedom Bridge because FSG was on his way back from the MHB when he saw DG. Unfortunately, I haven't seen if FSG stated which direction BG was heading. But if FSG never saw the girls, but saw BG on the north side of the bridge at 2:47, and he's accurate on that, than I'm a bit flummoxed. I'd probably lean more on the girls crossing the creek to avoid BG and him recrossing the bridge, waiting on the trail until nobody was watching (after FSG passed) and finally heading into the woods to cut them off near the murder site. I still think that gives him enough time to have killed them around 3pm and been done by 3:11 when DG called her phone. Timeline is VERY tight.

Yes. Agree.
But why would anyone with local knowledge leave the crime scene and walk down the trail?
I don't think they would. If he had no car hidden on the south side for his exit, then I would think, if he was local, he would make an effort to skirt witnesses altogether and:
1. Walk out to I25 by walking 625 down to 421 then to I25, pretend to be hitching north and walk back to the car (at CPS?)
OR
2. He would walk 625 to the informal trail south of Deer Creek crossing over Bridge Creek and go over land to get to I25 and then use then same ruse, pretend to hitch while walking north to his car.

 

[Yemelyan]

Yes but none of the reenactments showed the girls being carried across the creek IIRC so that could be what they got wrong IMO. They were murdered within minutes of the 2.30 video.

Can you address how one would carry someone who is 180 pounds the length of 3 football fields in 15 minutes (yes, you said the current in the creek could "help" but what about the steep bank from creek to the place where the bodies were found), or conversely, carry one approx 100 pound person the same distance while controlling a 180 pound person? I'm trying to imagine two girls and fireman's carry? Dragging? I just don't see it being at all viable. And like a previous poster said, to what end? Just to hide them in a particular place? Why not leave them where they fell. How exposed would a person be dragging corpses across the creek to the sight of people who may be walking on the trails?

Yes but none of the reenactments showed the girls being carried across the creek IIRC so that could be what they got wrong IMO. They were murdered within minutes of the 2.30 video.

 

[TL4S]

Can you address how one would carry someone who is 180 pounds the length of 3 football fields in 15 minutes (yes, you said the current in the creek could "help" but what about the steep bank from creek to the place where the bodies were found), or conversely, carry one approx 100 pound person the same distance while controlling a 180 pound person? I'm trying to imagine two girls and fireman's carry? Dragging? I just don't see it being at all viable. And like a previous poster said, to what end? Just to hide them in a particular place? Why not leave them where they fell. How exposed would a person be dragging corpses across the creek to the sight of people who may be walking on the trails?

I agree. I don't believe that the location of the bodies had special meaning, or that it was BG's planned destination. IMO, the location is, however, very important for the story it tells.

If the murders were planned, I can't see any reason for BG to have crossed the bridge. Or the creek. Why not wait on the north end, or follow them across and kill them in the woods below the south end of the bridge, on either side? Them being on the north side of the creek doesn't make sense here.

Neither does it make sense to me for BG to ever cross the creek or march them for hundreds or thousands of feet through the woods (or creek). Maybe he did plan to engage them on the south end of the bridge, but they took off down into the woods heading towards the creek, which foiled his plan.

I don't know for sure how it happened, but I feel decently confident that their final location was where it was because that's where BG finally caught up with them. Obviously nobody else feels that way.

 

[Cutiekitty]

Why can't these timings be pinned down exactly or they seem to be distrusted? I guess I don't really get it after two and a half years these things should not have changed.

Well, some of the times came from citizens or the media and have been repeated to the point they have become fact. If LE didn’t state them, they don’t count to me. The 2:30 time was initially put out by LE as the time BG was last seen then taken down. I’m wondering if they determined that time was incorrect.

 

[Michigan]

I agree with you. The thing I'm wondering is if he had "2 teenage girls" in mind. I wonder if he had decided that was the day to put his plan in action against whatever female he deemed to be part of the plan. For all we know, had a lone female been 5 minutes ahead of them, it would have been her.

I agree. We may not be looking specifically for a pedophile here although it hadn’t occurred to me before. He could have been looking for a female and was there looking for lone female joggers and therefore him being there trolling when school would normally be in session isn’t part of the equation. But the girls showed up and he went with them. MOO