Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #109

[tresir2012]

Why no photos of crime scene tape near the creek banks where he would have had to leave marks climbing out? LE had to have known if the bodies had been dragged or dropped there vs killed there, wouldn't they? Plus you can see the creek from the bridge.

Don't worry, nobody agrees with my scenario, either. We can agree to disagree and wallow by our lonesomes together.

There was crime scene tape up to the creek bank on the north side and I do remember some on the bridge side too. I think he would have gone through the woods or along the road till he reached the sand bar shallow area and crossed there, carrying one at a time or carrying one with forced assistance from the other. Crossing at that shallow point would leave minimum footprints as the water would flow over and erase them. He could also return and erase any still showing after the hiding of the bodies.

 

[TL4S]

The crime scene tape stopping before the creek has always bothered me. I've always believed (and still do) that they were killed where they were found, but the tape placement seems odd.

I've always wondered if something from the audio made it clear to LE that they didn't cross the creek, or at least BG didn't.

 

[somequestions]

I'm not trying to suggest or imply that this case is, but at what point does a case become "cold?"

That is a good question. I think the answer that investigators would give is that a case becomes cold when they are no longer receiving tips and when they have exhausted all the leads/tips that they have been given. So in this case I think law enforcement is going to say that the case is "active" for a very long time. I have never actually read of any police/investigative agency admitting that a case is cold, no matter how long it has remained unsolved.

The real question is when will this crime be solved?

I have looked at a lot of cases. The saddest ones are the ones that are no longer being discussed. People simply forget that they remain unsolved after such a long period of time or they assume the case has been solved. Enough time passes and people forget about the case altogether. It just fades away.

That is my definition of a cold case.

 

[Blueberry2720]

The "couple arguing under the bridge" has always bugged me.

Let's assume there was such a couple.
Let's also sssume they were talking, arguing, making some noise - whatever the case may be - and they were loud enough to be heard by someone up near or on the bridge.

Now, let's assume any one of us sleuthers was one of the "couple".

After repeatedly hearing this story of the arguing couple, would you not come forward and say, "Oh, yes, I was one of the people under the bridge and the other person with me was blah-blah." ???

Is this a true eye-witness proven story?
Or some "I heard what sounded like two people arguing and it seemed like it was coming from under the bridge." statement that quickly grew legs and turned into something bigger??

I do not for a minute believe BG had the girls under the bridge and they were "arguing". So, where and who are these people? Why has no one come forward, said it truly occurred, and claimed responsibility??

Frankly, I think it is a bogus story.
Just had to get that off my chest. . .

JMO

 

[Yemelyan]

Why no photos of crime scene tape near the creek banks where he would have had to leave marks climbing out? LE had to have known if the bodies had been dragged or dropped there vs killed there, wouldn't they? Plus you can see the creek from the bridge.

There were photos of detectives in the day(s) immediately after the crime examining the area near the creek banks as well as photos of police in the creek itself but I agree, no crime scene tape extended as far as the creek bank. I can entertain a lot of possible scenarios (he forced them across the creek, they tried to escape across the creek, they ended up back in that side of the bridge somehow before being chased or forced to that location and the creek is secondary, as a spot he threw the phone or other items related to the crime) but him carrying them or even carrying one of them that far is just way out of the realm of possibility for me, based on the weight alone.

Clearly there are elements of the timeline that we do not know (which is as it should be). Every time someone here makes some kind of inference about this crime based on the evident quickness of it I think of poor Gabbi Doolan, raped, sodomized, and murdered in Kentucky about 4 years ago. She was only missing for 30 minutes before her body was found.

 

[rosesfromangels]

The "couple arguing under the bridge" has always bugged me.

Let's assume there was such a couple.
Let's also sssume they were talking, arguing, making some noise - whatever the case may be - and they were loud enough to be heard by someone up near or on the bridge.

Now, let's assume any one of us sleuthers was one of the "couple".

After repeatedly hearing this story of the arguing couple, would you not come forward and say, "Oh, yes, I was one of the people under the bridge and the other person with me was blah-blah." ???

Is this a true eye-witness proven story?
Or some "I heard what sounded like two people arguing and it seemed like it was coming from under the bridge." statement that quickly grew legs and turned into something bigger??

I do not for a minute believe BG had the girls under the bridge and they were "arguing". So, where and who are these people? Why has no one come forward, said it truly occurred, and claimed responsibility??

Frankly, I think it is a bogus story. Just had to get that off my chest.

JMO

When I heard of the alleged arguing couple under the bridge, I immediately thought drunk, quarreling transients.

Is that area known for transients?

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[155etta]

Why no photos of crime scene tape near the creek banks where he would have had to leave marks climbing out? LE had to have known if the bodies had been dragged or dropped there vs killed there, wouldn't they? Plus you can see the creek from the bridge.

Don't worry, nobody agrees with my scenario, either. We can agree to disagree and wallow by our lonesomes together.

The crime scene tape encompasses a surprisingly large area. I think they were flat out running at that point. I think it was dragged out over a larger area than just where the bodies ended up. MOO.

 

[tresir2012]

Bringing forward the foreigners post from the media thread as it has good detail and sources for times we have been discussing. It is on page 39 of the media thread.



TIMELINE for Monday, February 13, 2017
The Day the Girls Went Missing

ALL info is based on Libby's family's own words.

10:00
Libby and Abby awakened at Libby's house. Derrick (Libby's father) made them pancakes.


1:00
Kelsie, Libby's sister, arrive at Becky and Mike Patty's house, were also Libby live. Kelsie says that she was going to a friend's house before going to work. Libby hear her and ask if she can go to the bridge for a while since it was so warm.
1:38
Libby and Abby were dropped off by Kelsie (Libby's sister) to go hiking near Monon High Bridge , according to family.


2:07
Libby took a snapchat pic of Abby on the bridge, this was the last time anyone heard from the girls.
2:30
Libby take video of Bridgeman
2:49
CME (female witness) walked the bridge, saw a man before that and a couple under the bridge, did not see or hear the girls or the possible suspect at the bridgearea.
2:52
"Flannel Shirt Man" (older man mid to late 70's, a witness) sees a man ( possibly the suspect) leave the area just few meters north of the meeting point.


3:02
Possible suspect is seen at Freedom Bridge (not sure by whom?).
3:11
Derrick, Libby's dad call Libby while passing Wilson Bridge, no answer, he leave message at voicemail; he is almost there.
3:14
Derrick, Libby's dad call Libby again saying he has arrived at the meeting point,
no answer just voicemail, so he walk towards the trailhead, didn't see anybody.
Derrick walk further and meet an older man (the old FSM man witness?), coming from the high bridge, and ask him if he had seen the girls, but he had not but tell Derrick that there
was a couple (a man and a woman) under the bridge. Derrick then take the trial leading down to the creek to see if the couple was there, but Becky (Libby's grandmother), who is telling all this, does not remember if Derrick saw the couple or not.
Derrick then walk back to the meeting point.
3:30
Derrick call Becky telling her that Libby's not answering her phone and now the calls goes straight to voicemail.
3:30
Becky calls and sms Libby, but no answer.
3:35
Derrick walk down to the Freedom Bridge and on his way he meet the older man again (the FSM witness ?).


4:00
Derrick has walked back to the meeting point.
4:00
Becky calls her husband Mike Patty at his work and tell him she had called and sms'ed Libby, but no answer.
Becky tell Mike that they will go to the bridge and look for the girls.
Mike Patty says he will leave work at once and come to the Bridge and look for Libby and Abby.
4:??
Tara German (Libby's aunt) leave Becky's house 10minuts before Becky and when Tara
got to the meeting point she got into Derrick's car with Derrick.
4;??
As Becky leave her house Cody Patty (Mike Patty's son) come pulling in. He has just gotten out of work, Becky told him what was going on and Cody got in the car with Becky, and they headed to the meeting point.
When they arrived at the meeting point there was a lot of cars there also cars that did not belong to the family says Becky.
Becky call AT&T, bc Libby had reset her phone the week before, and Becky asked if they could ping Libby's phone but they said they could not do it.
4:18
Becky calls husband Mike Patty again
4-5:00
Mike Patty says that they, as a family, had searched the area, couldn't find anything.


5:15
Becky says "at this time Mike come walking up, he had been searching too" (at the meeting point) "when Mike got there he pulled in to Mr. Mirrore's driveway because there was no place to park due to so many cars".
Mike Patty call a friend who is a police officer.
5:15
Becky, after a long time talking to AT&T, give up talking to them because they could not help.
5:20
Mike Patty call the police


This are my sources :

Gray Hughes interview with Becky and Mike Patty


Gray Hughes: Derrick's Path and more Libby and Abby Delphi Indiana


Dr Phil interview with Libby's family

And 4 pages of typed interview with
Becky Patty (Libby's grandmother) and Tara German (Libby'

 

[TL4S]

There were photos of detectives in the day(s) immediately after the crime examining the area near the creek banks as well as photos of police in the creek itself but I agree, no crime scene tape extended as far as the creek bank. I can entertain a lot of possible scenarios (he forced them across the creek, they tried to escape across the creek, they ended up back in that side of the bridge somehow before being chased or forced to that location and the creek is secondary, as a spot he threw the phone or other items related to the crime) but him carrying them or even carrying one of them that far is just way out of the realm of possibility for me, based on the weight alone.

Clearly there are elements of the timeline that we do not know (which is as it should be). Every time someone here makes some kind of inference about this crime based on the evident quickness of it I think of poor Gabbi Doolan, raped, sodomized, and murdered in Kentucky about 4 years ago. She was only missing for 30 minutes before her body was found.

In one video (I don't remember which one) Mike Patty mentioned that LE were checking the creek. IMO, of course they are going to check it for evidence, especially if they didn't know yet which way BG left. But I agree, BG carrying them across the creek does not seem plausible. In the end, it'll probably be something none of us ever even considered!

 

[EarthtoMel]

DBM Someone else had the same thought I did.
Always a day late and a dollar short....

 

[tresir2012]

The crime scene tape encompasses a surprisingly large area. I think they were flat out running at that point. I think it was dragged out over a larger area than just where the bodies ended up. MOO.

I was going to bring forward a post of mine that is in the media thread that illustrates the whole of the trails were a crime scene and blocked off but will instead direct posters to near the top of page 39 .

 

[JnRyan]

Not to be a Debbie Downer or Negative Nancy or what have you, lol: but, just 'cause LE says all the reenactments are wrong doesn't mean they are. LE has seemed incredibly 'mum is the word' about details & releasing details.

I'd be more surprised if they said: "Why, yes! Yes! That's exactly how it went down!"

JMO

I listen to what they say and it is usually all the reenactments are wrong. But like a test in school is one 50% right, is the next one 85% right and this next one 90% right. In this example all 3 of these are wrong to some degree. So I don't know when LE states they are wrong....just HOW wrong are they? I suppose the devil is in the details.

And if my example turns out to be correct LE really hasn't lied to us. Because all are wrong. To a degree.

 

[tresir2012]

In one video (I don't remember which one) Mike Patty mentioned that LE were checking the creek. IMO, of course they are going to check it for evidence, especially if they didn't know yet which way BG left. But I agree, BG carrying them across the creek does not seem plausible. In the end, it'll probably be something none of us ever even considered!

A canoe!
Yes it has been suggested before.
No I don't expect people to agree with my scenarios and I am thinking aloud. I don't care if I'm right or wrong either. Just trying to think of all eventualities and not dismissing anything, including he could have had a vehicle and an accomplice. Everyone's ideas have equal merit. And if I'm wrong it doesn't matter - it will make someone feel good being able to say "I told you so" or "I'll remind you when I'm right".
(Yes, I have had people say that to me.)
Again, I really don't mind.

 

[MJPeony]

I listen to what they say and it is usually all the reenactments are wrong. But like a test in school is one 50% right, is the next one 85% right and this next one 90% right. In this example all 3 of these are wrong to some degree. So I don't know when LE states they are wrong....just HOW wrong are they? I suppose the devil is in the details.

And if my example turns out to be correct LE really hasn't lied to us. Because all are wrong. To a degree.

Good point.

Well, to get something off MY chest (following blueberry’s lead ), it’s always bothered me that LE made that comment about how all the online reenactments are wrong. Kind of demoralizing. I’m not sure what LE wants us to do with that information. They say nothing more than that our theories are wrong.

It’s just not very motivating to be told all the public theories are wrong- but be given no lead in the right direction. But it does jive with my feeling that something is off in this whole case. LE does not actually appear to want the public’s help except for something very very specific. Which only a specific person or persons will know. Otherwise, they’d give us more to direct our incorrect theories in the right direction. And they aren’t. So they truly do not care if our theories are wrong. Bc they only want some certain type of other information.

IMO they have all sorts of information they aren’t sharing. Which hopefully is a good thing in the end. Still bugs me that they publicly criticize the online theories but give no further information. Not necessary IMO- they could just say nothing.

 

[tresir2012]

The "couple arguing under the bridge" has always bugged me.

Let's assume there was such a couple.
Let's also sssume they were talking, arguing, making some noise - whatever the case may be - and they were loud enough to be heard by someone up near or on the bridge.

Now, let's assume any one of us sleuthers was one of the "couple".

After repeatedly hearing this story of the arguing couple, would you not come forward and say, "Oh, yes, I was one of the people under the bridge and the other person with me was blah-blah." ???

Is this a true eye-witness proven story?
Or some "I heard what sounded like two people arguing and it seemed like it was coming from under the bridge." statement that quickly grew legs and turned into something bigger??

I do not for a minute believe BG had the girls under the bridge and they were "arguing". So, where and who are these people? Why has no one come forward, said it truly occurred, and claimed responsibility??

Frankly, I think it is a bogus story.
Just had to get that off my chest. . .

JMO

They probably have come forward. At the beginning LE said they wanted to speak to BG as he had not come forward, more or less suggesting everyone else had done. Within a few days of that he was declared the suspect.

 

[JnRyan]

Bringing forward the foreigners post from the media thread as it has good detail and sources for times we have been discussing. It is on page 39 of the media thread.



TIMELINE for Monday, February 13, 2017
The Day the Girls Went Missing

ALL info is based on Libby's family's own words.

2:49
CME (female witness) walked the bridge, saw a man before that and a couple under the bridge, did not see or hear the girls or the possible suspect at the bridgearea.
2:52
"Flannel Shirt Man" (older man mid to late 70's, a witness) sees a man ( possibly the suspect) leave the area just few meters north of the meeting point.


3:02
Possible suspect is seen at Freedom Bridge (not sure by whom?).

Abbreviated for the parts I was looking at in the timeline.
It's Saturday afternoon and I'm obviously thinking WAY too much about this. I liked this when we had the info prior to the 22 April PC. Now I find myself with doubts.
At 2:49 (not the exact it maybe, because the witness stated they saw the man before that), 2:52 and 3:02 witnesses sighted a possible suspect. With 2 sketches now, did they see the same guy? (Supposedly the original sketch was a 'composite' from more than witness?) Isn't the Freedom Bridge very near a parking lot for the trail? If we have a potential suspect (a suspect? or witness? we don't know.) parking on Rt 300 next to the abandoned CPS building why would he be walking to Freedom Bridge? This guy just killed 2 girls so he probably wants to leave the area as soon as possible without drawing attention to himself. Unless the driver of the vehicle is just someone unaccounted for and could be a potential witness. (Some of us, myself included, have assumed the driver of the CPS parked vehicle was the suspect even though LE has not specifically stated the person was a suspect.)

Just rambling thoughts.

 

[tresir2012]

Good point.

Well, to get something off MY chest (following blueberry’s lead ), it’s always bothered me that LE made that comment about how all the online reenactments are wrong. Kind of demoralizing. I’m not sure what LE wants us to do with that information. They say nothing more than that our theories are wrong.

It’s just not very motivating to be told all the public theories are wrong- but be given no lead in the right direction. But it does jive with my feeling that something is off in this whole case. LE does not actually appear to want the public’s help except for something very very specific. Which only a specific person or persons will know. Otherwise, they’d give us more to direct our incorrect theories in the right direction. And they aren’t. So they truly do not care if our theories are wrong. Bc they only want some certain type of other information.

IMO they have all sorts of information they aren’t sharing. Which hopefully is a good thing in the end. Still bugs me that they publicly criticize the online theories but give no further information. Not necessary IMO- they could just say nothing.

I do get the feeling that LE think we, the online brigade, are a pain in the proverbial, with our speculating and theorizing and inserting ourselves. It is like a big guessing game and of course they won't say a particular reenactment or theory is right because then they will be damaging the integrity of the investigation. Yet, in the meantime, they can pull in the wrong suspects, haul them over the coals, change the sketch, change the profile from national billboards to a local without any explanation. They are lucky that we are still interested in the case and keeping it in the news. Talking about the crime means getting it solved IMO. There will be a break in the case. I feel it.

 

[tresir2012]

Abbreviated for the parts I was looking at in the timeline.
It's Saturday afternoon and I'm obviously thinking WAY too much about this. I liked this when we had the info prior to the 22 April PC. Now I find myself with doubts.
At 2:49 (not the exact it maybe, because the witness stated they saw the man before that), 2:52 and 3:02 witnesses sighted a possible suspect. With 2 sketches now, did they see the same guy? (Supposedly the original sketch was a 'composite' from more than witness?) Isn't the Freedom Bridge very near a parking lot for the trail? If we have a potential suspect (a suspect? or witness? we don't know.) parking on Rt 300 next to the abandoned CPS building why would he be walking to Freedom Bridge? This guy just killed 2 girls so he probably wants to leave the area as soon as possible without drawing attention to himself. Unless the driver of the vehicle is just someone unaccounted for and could be a potential witness. (Some of us, myself included, have assumed the driver of the CPS parked vehicle was the suspect even though LE has not specifically stated the person was a suspect.)

Just rambling thoughts.

Freedom Bridge and CPS building are close to each other. I posted a timelapse video of the installation of the Freedom bridge earlier today and the last few frames show an aerial view with them both in the shot.

 

[TL4S]

A canoe!
Yes it has been suggested before.
No I don't expect people to agree with my scenarios and I am thinking aloud. I don't care if I'm right or wrong either. Just trying to think of all eventualities and not dismissing anything, including he could have had a vehicle and an accomplice. Everyone's ideas have equal merit. And if I'm wrong it doesn't matter - it will make someone feel good being able to say "I told you so" or "I'll remind you when I'm right".
(Yes, I have had people say that to me.)
Again, I really don't mind.

I would wager a bet that nobody on here is 100% correct in the end. I've posted many ideas that got dismissed. A lot of us have. But no theory should be wholly dismissed when we don't know the actual truth of what happened.

What I appreciate most about others are their willingness to toss around ideas. And I'd much rather do the back-and-forth with somebody open to new ideas (like you) than somebody whose mind is made up. My main goal for myself is not to pick out a POI and force what little information we have to fit him. My view is fluid.

 

[rosesfromangels]

I would wager a bet that nobody on here is 100% correct in the end. I've posted many ideas that got dismissed. A lot of us have. But no theory should be wholly dismissed when we don't know the actual truth of what happened.

What I appreciate most about others are their willingness to toss around ideas. And I'd much rather do the back-and-forth with somebody open to new ideas (like you) than somebody whose mind is made up. My main goal for myself is not to pick out a POI and force what little information we have to fit him. My view is fluid.

What a great post! It should be at the start of every thread.
Don't force little bits of info to try and fit a POI.
Great post.

Amateur opinion and speculation