Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #109

[sunshineray]

The thing is, I'm not sure anyone saw BG. I've seen various times and witness stories, and they're all different. So it's anyone's guess!

ETA: I think the timeline can work with or without the witnesses. Hard to believe nobody saw or heard more with up to four people at the bridge around the time of the murders, but it's been discussed and clearly could have happened.

You're absolutely right. I just wonder with the timeline, even discounting if FSG did in fact see BG, who were the people under the bridge that he noticed that day. They had to have been in the area within that hour of kidnapping, murders and escape. Whether it was happenstance or involvement, they were there according to FSG. There was also that other man who was in the area working and spoke to the media about giving LE some info that he hoped would be useful. I wonder where he fits in.

 

[TL4S]

Good point.

Well, to get something off MY chest (following blueberry’s lead ), it’s always bothered me that LE made that comment about how all the online reenactments are wrong. Kind of demoralizing. I’m not sure what LE wants us to do with that information. They say nothing more than that our theories are wrong.

It’s just not very motivating to be told all the public theories are wrong- but be given no lead in the right direction. But it does jive with my feeling that something is off in this whole case. LE does not actually appear to want the public’s help except for something very very specific. Which only a specific person or persons will know. Otherwise, they’d give us more to direct our incorrect theories in the right direction. And they aren’t. So they truly do not care if our theories are wrong. Bc they only want some certain type of other information.

IMO they have all sorts of information they aren’t sharing. Which hopefully is a good thing in the end. Still bugs me that they publicly criticize the online theories but give no further information. Not necessary IMO- they could just say nothing.

I remember in the interview when they said this about the reenactments, they also were saying (paraphrasing) that they're glad to see that the public doesn't have all the facts and the case is still intact. I believe they've even held back information from the family in order to prevent accidental or purposeful leaks. JMO

 

[sunshineray]

They could just say nothing but did make special mention. And I agree, they wouldn't admit if any of it was right. I remember GH boasting at one point that LE had contacted him wanting to know how he knew stuff.

Just curious, do you remember what stuff?

 

[bradfordsleuth]

The crime scene tape stopping before the creek has always bothered me. I've always believed (and still do) that they were killed where they were found, but the tape placement seems odd.

I agree.

Especially if he had them, or he himself walked right to the creek to wash anything off.

JMO

 

[tresir2012]

As far as I'm aware, linking Gray Hughes videos is allowed. In this one starting at 6:55 and going to 7:50, ONLY from there to there, Delphi murders are talked about. The rest is about the other kidnapping case so not relevant here on this thread.

Anyone have ideas on why PE would say what he did about the Delphi murders, to a total stranger while on the run from police?

Mods: I hope I posted this correctly...if not, apologies please delete.

Is this where he mentions Harry Potter and Unicorns in relation to Abby and Libby?

 

[tresir2012]

Just curious, do you remember what stuff?

Things like where the girls were on the bridge and how he worked out the distances of BG from the camera and stuff like that I think- nothing spooky I don't think.

 

[155etta]

Bringing forward the foreigners post from the media thread as it has good detail and sources for times we have been discussing. It is on page 39 of the media thread.





TIMELINE for Monday, February 13, 2017
The Day the Girls Went Missing

ALL info is based on Libby's family's own words.

10:00
Libby and Abby awakened at Libby's house. Derrick (Libby's father) made them pancakes.


1:00
Kelsie, Libby's sister, arrive at Becky and Mike Patty's house, were also Libby live. Kelsie says that she was going to a friend's house before going to work. Libby hear her and ask if she can go to the bridge for a while since it was so warm.
1:38
Libby and Abby were dropped off by Kelsie (Libby's sister) to go hiking near Monon High Bridge , according to family.


2:07
Libby took a snapchat pic of Abby on the bridge, this was the last time anyone heard from the girls.
2:30
Libby take video of Bridgeman
2:49
CME (female witness) walked the bridge, saw a man before that and a couple under the bridge, did not see or hear the girls or the possible suspect at the bridgearea.
2:52
"Flannel Shirt Man" (older man mid to late 70's, a witness) sees a man ( possibly the suspect) leave the area just few meters north of the meeting point.


3:02
Possible suspect is seen at Freedom Bridge (not sure by whom?).
3:11
Derrick, Libby's dad call Libby while passing Wilson Bridge, no answer, he leave message at voicemail; he is almost there.
3:14
Derrick, Libby's dad call Libby again saying he has arrived at the meeting point,
no answer just voicemail, so he walk towards the trailhead, didn't see anybody.
Derrick walk further and meet an older man (the old FSM man witness?), coming from the high bridge, and ask him if he had seen the girls, but he had not but tell Derrick that there
was a couple (a man and a woman) under the bridge. Derrick then take the trial leading down to the creek to see if the couple was there, but Becky (Libby's grandmother), who is telling all this, does not remember if Derrick saw the couple or not.
Derrick then walk back to the meeting point.
3:30
Derrick call Becky telling her that Libby's not answering her phone and now the calls goes straight to voicemail.
3:30
Becky calls and sms Libby, but no answer.
3:35
Derrick walk down to the Freedom Bridge and on his way he meet the older man again (the FSM witness ?).


4:00
Derrick has walked back to the meeting point.
4:00
Becky calls her husband Mike Patty at his work and tell him she had called and sms'ed Libby, but no answer.
Becky tell Mike that they will go to the bridge and look for the girls.
Mike Patty says he will leave work at once and come to the Bridge and look for Libby and Abby.
4:??
Tara German (Libby's aunt) leave Becky's house 10minuts before Becky and when Tara
got to the meeting point she got into Derrick's car with Derrick.
4;??
As Becky leave her house Cody Patty (Mike Patty's son) come pulling in. He has just gotten out of work, Becky told him what was going on and Cody got in the car with Becky, and they headed to the meeting point.
When they arrived at the meeting point there was a lot of cars there also cars that did not belong to the family says Becky.
Becky call AT&T, bc Libby had reset her phone the week before, and Becky asked if they could ping Libby's phone but they said they could not do it.
4:18
Becky calls husband Mike Patty again
4-5:00
Mike Patty says that they, as a family, had searched the area, couldn't find anything.


5:15
Becky says "at this time Mike come walking up, he had been searching too" (at the meeting point) "when Mike got there he pulled in to Mr. Mirrore's driveway because there was no place to park due to so many cars".
Mike Patty call a friend who is a police officer.
5:15
Becky, after a long time talking to AT&T, give up talking to them because they could not help.
5:20
Mike Patty call the police


This are my sources :

Gray Hughes interview with Becky and Mike Patty


Gray Hughes: Derrick's Path and more Libby and Abby Delphi Indiana


Dr Phil interview with Libby's family

And 4 pages of typed interview with
Becky Patty (Libby's grandmother) and Tara German (Libby'

Speaking of the "female witness", if the girls weren’t targeted, why not choose her as his victim? She was alone and it would seemingly be easier than taking on two girls, would it not? Why them and not her?

 

[TL4S]

Speaking of the "female witness", if the girls weren’t targeted, why not choose her as his victim? She was alone and it would seemingly be easier than taking on two girls, would it not? Why them and not her?

I wonder how the witness times are so exact around the time of the murder. Like how did FSG know it was exactly 2:52? Did he have some sort of phone record, or was this somebody else's estimate?

Either way, if the bridge video was around 2:30, BG could have recrossed and been in the woods by 2:40 at the latest, IMO. Except we don't even know for certain that the 2:30 time is correct. We also don't know when the "couple arguing" got there, or who they were. I'm with @sunshineray, I'd like to know more about them.

It's possible that this person the witnesses saw wasn't even BG (maybe he was the basis for OBG sketch). IMO, it's possible BG was already off the trail and in the woods before anyone else got to the bridge. JMO

 

[tresir2012]

What a great post! It should be at the start of every thread.
Don't force little bits of info to try and fit a POI.
Great post.

Amateur opinion and speculation

Heck it should be part of TOS.

 

[zoricaj1]

what is MSM

 

[rosesfromangels]

what is MSM

Main stream media

 

[tresir2012]

I wonder how the witness times are so exact around the time of the murder. Like how did FSG know it was exactly 2:52? Did he have some sort of phone record, or was this somebody else's estimate?

Either way, if the bridge video was around 2:30, BG could have recrossed and been in the woods by 2:40 at the latest, IMO. We don't even know for certain that the 2:30 time is correct. We also don't know when the "couple arguing" got there, or who they were. I'm with @sunshineray, I'd like to know more about them.

It's possible that this person the witnesses saw wasn't even BG (maybe he was the basis for OBG sketch). IMO, it's possible BG was already off the trail and in the woods before anyone else got to the bridge. JMO

Could you remind me who said the couple were arguing ? Do you remember the original source?

Re the times, the female witness who took pictures probably had a timestamp on her pics and so could guesstimate the other times. Re FSG and his exact time of seeing BG, that is weird it is so precise unless he said to Derrick 20 minutes ago and it was 3.12 p.m. by Derrick's phone logs to Libby or something like that. If it is from GH Derrick's path, the times are exact like that in the video.

 

[Nerissa]

Speaking of the "female witness", if the girls weren’t targeted, why not choose her as his victim? She was alone and it would seemingly be easier than taking on two girls, would it not? Why them and not her?

There's the rub, isn't it?

Part of the 'profiling' of who this monster is....

I don't know the age of this gal, the 'female witness' - presuming she isn't a 'girl'.

He didn't target her because he targets girls,
OR he was targeting them specifically

I imagine girls are easier to manipulate than women & again, in the sense of profiling, girls may be what he wants to target for his own psychological needs versus a grown woman

JMO

 

[TL4S]

There's the rub, isn't it?

Part of the 'profiling' of who this monster is....

I don't know the age of this gal, the 'female witness' - presuming she isn't a 'girl'.

He didn't target her because he targets girls,
OR he was targeting them specifically

I imagine girls are easier to manipulate than women & again, in the sense of profiling, girls may be what he wants to target for his own psychological needs versus a grown woman

JMO

Or he was already with the girls before the woman was on the scene?

 

[TL4S]

Could you remind me who said the couple were arguing ? Do you remember the original source?

Re the times, the female witness who took pictures probably had a timestamp on her pics and so could guesstimate the other times. Re FSG and his exact time of seeing BG, that is weird it is so precise unless he said to Derrick 20 minutes ago and it was 3.12 p.m. by Derrick's phone logs to Libby or something like that. If it is from GH Derrick's path, the times are exact like that in the video.

I don't know where that comes from, actually. Good question.

 

[BNA]

For accuracy, weight on FBI poster is 200 lbs. ETA, the smaller teen was 100 lbs.

That's a big girl for that age.

 

[BNA]

I wonder how the witness times are so exact around the time of the murder. Like how did FSG know it was exactly 2:52? Did he have some sort of phone record, or was this somebody else's estimate?

If he took a picture of something at approx. the time he saw what he saw, there would be a time stamp on the photo for him to refer to.

 

[tresir2012]

Freedom Bridge and CPS building are close to each other. I posted a timelapse video of the installation of the Freedom bridge earlier today and the last few frames show an aerial view with them both in the shot.

Here's the time lapse video of the Freedom Bridge going up .. the CPS building can be seen bottom right in the last few frames of the video.

 

[tresir2012]

Speaking of the "female witness", if the girls weren’t targeted, why not choose her as his victim? She was alone and it would seemingly be easier than taking on two girls, would it not? Why them and not her?

BG was on the bridge at 2.30. The female did not get to the bridge till 2.49 according to timeline posted. He had already likely left the crime scene by then because FSG saw him on the trail at 2.52 based on the timeline.

 

[Cutiekitty]

Hi Nerissa and tresir2012,

I remember GH making that comment, also. I can’t help but wonder if LE is saying the re-enactments are wrong to lull BG into a false sense of security that LE is on the wrong trail and BG will lower his guard and mess up because he thinks he’s home free.

JMO

~RIP M+J

Dbm