Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #113

[Boxer]

I am talking about the opposite situation. We have more felons' DNAs, but way fewer than used to be in Gedmatch.

Gedmatch is an open database where anyone tested in commercial ancestry systems (e.g., FTDNA, 23@me, Ancestry, MyHeritage), can download his raw DNA, to compare with the relatives tested in other commercial systems. It actually is for genealogy. Free and easy.

However, after GSK was caught using his old DNA and Gedmatch matches, there were questions about the legality or running DNAs of criminals against some people without their knowledge. That led to outflow of clients from Gedmatch. Gedmatch now has migrated on a slightly different platform, transferred all DNAs there (it was mostly done to accommodate new clients tested on V5 chip of 23@me and had nothing to do with GSK or other cases). Now you have to specially "opt in" if you want your DNA be accessible not only to genealogists but to LE as well. Otherwise, your DNA stays in Gedmatch, it can be used to find DNA relatives, but is "invisible" for the LE.

Everyone who is in Gedmatch may answer this question about "opting in" for himself. I usually tell people, if you don't want to make your own DNA "visible", but your older parents/relatives were tested, opting them in is enough.

But there were people who may have downloaded their DNA several years ago, and died afterwards. They can't opt in. They are invisible. Gedmatch changed their rules in March, or April of 2019.

Had the Indiana LE worked with the Parabon since 2017, they'd have better chance at finding matches for the perp's DNA. Now the pool of comparable samples has dwindled.

(And I don't know if they ever worked with the Parabon, or considered it. But the LE did have the time to achieve something through genealogy, in 2017-2018).

So delay might have ruined their familial match DNA chances.

 

[margarita25]

"Can anyone here give an example of a case where man killed a female minor and the motive was not SA?"

I have been researching double homicides of teen girls, to try to glean something.

15-year-old Nisa Mickens and 16-year-old Kalya Cuevas, were murdered by members of MS-13 gang.
But it was NY area, not rural Indiana.

All of the rest that I researched (other than familial) were SA. One or two revenge, but still involved SA.

Feds: MS-13 gang members arrested in slayings of NY teen girls

Additionally, imo we can apply “single homicides” as well here, imo.

Jjust because he “GOT 2”, that might not necessarily exclusively be his only MO, kwim? In other words, past or future “single homicides” still be considered, jmo.

(I’m halfway through a post in another thread, making note to continue here)

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Quick poll, WHEN BG is arrested, what degree of similarity do you think the new BG sketch will have to the actual perp? I’m going to say little to mediocre, moo jmo.

I still think he is much older than 18, moo. I think he is at leaaast 30s or 40s, JMO.

That’s a good question. Hmmmmmmm. LE has jumbled everything up so badly with the new sketch, and new direction....who knows! Since nobody has rushed forward to ID him yet I would say it won’t look much like him. I do think he’s a bit younger than previously thought, in his 20s or 30s maybe. But I think I’ll just wait for the next “new” sketch in a few months after they head off into another direction. Crazy.

 

[400bones]

I’d be very surprised to learn the motive was anything other than SA and intentional murder, and I say this strictly from a statistical perspective, moo.

Sure there are other possibilities, which include something they may have seen or known about, some type of revenge..ticked him off...random thrill killing where chances are rare, meth induced psychosis, etc etc, everything we’ve discussed already...point is
I struggle to think of cases where an “ADULT MALE killed a FEMALE CHILD/TEEN” and there was not SA present. It seems to me in the other cases whocb are corcumstantially similar statistically indicate SA as motive.

Can anyone here give an example of a case where man killed a female minor and the motive was not SA? I’m honestly curious..we have familial homicides, mass shootings and robbery instances, but I’m talking flat out man kills a girl/teen... He’s in a wooded area...KWIM.

IMO if this wasn’t SA, LE likely maybe would have revealed this, and I know people disagree with this, that they still may keep this close to the vest, but imo they could still preserve COD and say no SA occurred. This would be able to dispel rumors more easily and give the families, community members, classmates peace about this, that they died “immediately”, etc. but again moo and I could be wrong about that.

This is likely imo, when it comes down to it, literally a “boogeyman in the woods” as I said in thread 1 day 1 after recovery.

BBM: Again sure there are other possibilities, but statistically imo this is not reflected as common motive.

STATS plain and simple say “SA”.

Are the stats different here? Time will hopefully tell what happened to these poor girls once this @&$” is behind bars.

—-

ETA:
Reading over my post, perhaps more than one motive is at play here, for example “SA AND meth induced psychosis for example, “insert variable”...Making a note to think about this further.

I think it depends what you mean by a motive of sexual assault. Undoubtedly, we think of SA as the motivation when a man kills a woman "unknown" to him/a young female/a plethora of example, but I believe that there are different types of sexual motivation/acts that are lumped together in statistics.
For example, there are the obvious rape + murders and sexual assault/torture + murders (Kitty Genovese, Black Dahlia, Tori Stafford, Ashley Tinsley to name a few well-known cases). But there are also cases where rape/SA are not evident but there is a likely sexual motive (Jack the Ripper, Albert Fish - in which horrific things were done to the victim's genitalia/sexual organs, and in the case of Fish, for sexual gratification, but there was no evidence of SA). There are also, of course, pedophilic murders in which the victim is only murdered, not assaulted - but the motive is clear.
In my mind, these are different. Perhaps no "better" or worse, only different. They are all rooted in a sexual motive but are performed differently. Personally, I don't know if I believe Abby and/or Libby were SAed but I don't think that their killer having been an older male necessitates that.
Sorry if this was messy and difficult to follow, hopefully it makes sense - I tried to keep it short and didn't really want to subject myself to researching individual cases of SA/non SA murders but if anyone wants to talk more I'd be happy to.

 

[kc1023]

Most people use their dominant hand to shoot so if it is a gun on his right side, which I don’t think it is, he would be right handed. I’m right handed and my gun is always on my right side.

please excuse the late reply, a bit behind

no, what i meant is that there appears to some to be an outline of a gun inside BG's coat (not pocket) with the handle facing out so that it would be logical to reach in with his opposite/left hand to grab it and hold it. hard to explain? the way the (maybe) gun appears to be inside his coat looks that he would remove it or replace it with his left hand by just placing it inside. the gun would be facing the wrong way and too hard to reach around inside the front of his coat to the right side with his right hand

 

[Torch Carrier]

DBM

 

[JnRyan]

These murders are REALLY baffling. We have audio, video, a sketch (2 if you count the original attempt), over 40K in tips, a task force or team assembled and POSSIBLE DNA...and yet no arrest. It's as if this killer stepped in from an alternate reality, did this and returned from where he came. I just sometimes find all this hard to believe. If this happened 30 years ago there wouldn't be any audio, video or DNA.

 

[Nadal]

Murders of children by adults are typically only going to be sexually motivated, family (or mothers boyfriends or whatever just count them under family) killing or possibly as revenge against the parents. The mafia in Italy have killed kids of other mafia members usually when they've became informants like this monster did to an 11 year old - Giovanni Brusca - Wikipedia

I don't see how kids can get themselves into situations with any regularity that fit the other motives adults often get killed for, possibly robbery since kids have technology on their person now but not much else. It's difficult to imagine this being anything other than sexually motivated (even if he didn't sexually assault them, some killers get "off" on killing like Andrei Chikatilo) or less likely if he was severely mentally ill.

 

[K.jill]

These murders are REALLY baffling. We have audio, video, a sketch (2 if you count the original attempt), over 40K in tips, a task force or team assembled and POSSIBLE DNA...and yet no arrest. It's as if this killer stepped in from an alternate reality, did this and returned from where he came. I just sometimes find all this hard to believe. If this happened 30 years ago there wouldn't be any audio, video or DNA.

Well said, JnRyan!
It is so frustrating!
How did the killer(s?) manage to leave the scene without being noticed. He had to be dirty, soiled clothes. How could he not leave any evidence behind?? If they do have a good dna sample have they just not found a match? If they think he is local why don’t they publicly ask locals to consider downloading their dna results to ged match?

So many questions!!

 

[Spartygirl]

If I did a documentary on Delphi Indiana and truly delivered some reality, I bet this thread would end.

It has before...been shut down. And Yes, a documentary on Delphi would shut it down and I have done my research JS

You shouldnt because if you actually did research and actually put 2 and 2 together you would know what happened. There is also a difference between human beings who participate in illegal activities and people who work hard to take care of their own.

 

[CSIDreamer]

I'm just babbling. I've been thinking about why someone would kill 2 teenage girls. Potential reasons for targeted hit.

Coming between me and my money
Coming between me and my family
Revenge (for what?)
Power move
Shut them up
A threat to me
A threat to my family
Settle a score

I didn't mean me specifically.

 

[Hoosier952]

Currently between 18-40. So he could have been as young as 15 at the time of the murders do they mean?

While I'm not convinced he's that young, I do try to keep an open mind. I could absolutely see a very young man/teen losing control of his emotions and taking it out on someone. I also think people would be hesitant to turn in someone who was a teen at the time of the crimes, especially considering the first sketch. It would also explain no DNA hits (if they have something to compare it to), the perp being out and about at that time of day, knowing school was out, etc. Statistically, a 15-18 year old kid is just as likely to murder someone as a guy in his early 30s. Whether that statistic would hold true if you took away gang related murders, I do not know. It also may explain why no one paid attention to him if they saw him on the trails that day, especially if there were other younger teens there.

Quick poll, WHEN BG is arrested, what degree of similarity do you think the new BG sketch will have to the actual perp? I’m going to say little to mediocre, moo jmo.

I still think he is much older than 18, moo. I think he is at leaaast 30s or 40s, JMO.

I think maybe if you rub your eyes really hard and squint, you might be able to see a vague similarity. I don't think either one will be similar enough to question why no one was able to ID him.

 

[MJPeony]

Just saw this article. Thought it was interesting in light of the fact we’ve had discussions about Kik on this thread.

“Kik, the controversial social media app popular among teens, will shut down, its CEO said late Monday.

The Canada-based social network — once valued at $1 billion — ultimately became notorious as a destination for child exploitation. As reported by ‘48 Hours’ 13-year-old Nicole Lovell was murdered in 2016 by a man she met over the app. The chat tool was also linked to more than 1,000 child sexual abuse cases in the U.K., according to a BBC investigation.”

https://news.google.com/articles/CAIiELC2AOqRqq6AWT3X-BdBwBAqGQgEKhAIACoHCAowyNj6CjDyiPICMPDfxAU?hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US:en

 

[Charlot123]

I’d be very surprised to learn the motive was anything other than SA and intentional murder, and I say this strictly from a statistical perspective, moo.

Sure there are other possibilities, which include something they may have seen or known about, some type of revenge..ticked him off...random thrill killing where chances are rare, meth induced psychosis, etc etc, everything we’ve discussed already...point is
I struggle to think of cases where an “ADULT MALE killed a FEMALE CHILD/TEEN” and there was not SA present. It seems to me in the other cases whocb are corcumstantially similar statistically indicate SA as motive.

Can anyone here give an example of a case where man killed a female minor and the motive was not SA? I’m honestly curious..we have familial homicides, mass shootings and robbery instances, but I’m talking flat out man kills a girl/teen... He’s in a wooded area...KWIM.
IMO if this wasn’t SA, LE likely maybe would have revealed this, and I know people disagree with this, that they still may keep this close to the vest, but imo they could still preserve COD and say no SA occurred. This would be able to dispel rumors more easily and give the families, community members, classmates peace about this, that they died “immediately”, etc. but again moo and I could be wrong about that.

This is likely imo, when it comes down to it, literally a “boogeyman in the woods” as I said in thread 1 day 1 after recovery.

BBM: Again sure there are other possibilities, but statistically imo this is not reflected as common motive.

STATS plain and simple say “SA”.

Are the stats different here? Time will hopefully tell what happened to these poor girls once this @&$” is behind bars.

—-

ETA:
Reading over my post, perhaps more than one motive is at play here, for example “SA AND meth induced psychosis for example, “insert variable”...Making a note to think about this further.

Nothing comes to mind, except for Chris Watts, but even he could be an example...Money. He killed his kids because he wanted to start a new life with a new woman, NK, and she openly told him that she wanted own kids, and he calculated the cost of the divorce + supporting a wife + 3 kids and realized that divorce could be costly. Killed two young daughters + pregnant wife.

I bet I can find some SF killing a SD after mom died, because of inheritance.

So, love, SA, or money.

 

[Charlot123]

While I'm not convinced he's that young, I do try to keep an open mind. I could absolutely see a very young man/teen losing control of his emotions and taking it out on someone. I also think people would be hesitant to turn in someone who was a teen at the time of the crimes, especially considering the first sketch. It would also explain no DNA hits (if they have something to compare it to), the perp being out and about at that time of day, knowing school was out, etc. Statistically, a 15-18 year old kid is just as likely to murder someone as a guy in his early 30s. Whether that statistic would hold true if you took away gang related murders, I do not know. It also may explain why no one paid attention to him if they saw him on the trails that day, especially if there were other younger teens there.



I think maybe if you rub your eyes really hard and squint, you might be able to see a vague similarity. I don't think either one will be similar enough to question why no one was able to ID him.

Funny. Agree 100%.

 

[Nadal]

Nothing comes to mind, except for Chris Watts,

He doesn't fit as Margarita mentioned Familial Homicides as an exception to what they were asking. Think most of us would have suggested family homicides if it wasn't for that caveat as they're more common than sexually motivated stranger killings.

 

[Charlot123]

What are you even talking about? I think you should leave this thread if that is how you feel. Your negativity is not welcome. All of these people on Websleuths care about Abby and Libby and work tirelessly in this case in the hope of finding who did this horrific crime.

He might be going through personal difficult time; it happens. Maybe it is a cry for help. No need to be callous; everyone might be in personal black tunnel, and everyone has the right to stay here, and even ask for help. How many times people were supported on FB, on other media? I know two when they were saved.

We know absolutely nothing about @BradB, but we know nothing bad, either. He just expresses his opinion that the case will never be solved. Freedom of speech...Well, some other people have lost hope, too, after two years.

 

[Charlot123]

He doesn't fit as Margarita mentioned Familial Homicides as an exception to what they were asking. Think most of us would have suggested family homicides if it wasn't for that caveat as they're more common than sexually motivated stranger killings.

So-orry. I missed familial homicides. Stranger killings - could still be robbery, could be psychosis, or a quarrel, but of course, SA is nr. 1.

 

[Charlot123]

These murders are REALLY baffling. We have audio, video, a sketch (2 if you count the original attempt), over 40K in tips, a task force or team assembled and POSSIBLE DNA...and yet no arrest. It's as if this killer stepped in from an alternate reality, did this and returned from where he came. I just sometimes find all this hard to believe. If this happened 30 years ago there wouldn't be any audio, video or DNA.

Actually, DNA would likely be available, since 30 years ago. And provided good chain of custody, would be ready for comparison today.

Probably there would be time limitation since that time, but not sure.

 

[margarita25]

Well said, JnRyan!
It is so frustrating!
How did the killer(s?) manage to leave the scene without being noticed. He had to be dirty, soiled clothes. How could he not leave any evidence behind?? If they do have a good dna sample have they just not found a match? If they think he is local why don’t they publicly ask locals to consider downloading their dna results to ged match?

So many questions!!

Again I wonder about the reference to the possible duffle bag early on. This could simply be a guessed inference by LE based on initial thoughts that the perp could be a drifter, or perhaps this is specific due to the clothing or potential weapons aspect.