Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #113

[moonlessnight]

you gotta wonder if someone hacked her phone to track her. very possible.

And if we assume they were tracked, could this fact alone limit the pool of suspects?

The phone itself is a walking GPS, and if we even consider non-random version of events, then either the girls were tracked when they posted something on MSM about their plans, or even via Snapchat picture if it had coordinates, or via the phone.

Libby’s phone was malfunctioning the day before, and she had to do factory reset. Is it possible that someone was trying to track her? Install some program, via a link, maybe? And this is why it was malfunctioning?

This is important to answer, IMO, because at this point in time, we don’t even know which of the girls could be the potential target. However, Abby did not have the phone, so maybe, Libby? (If we assume they were targeted?)

And if the perp a random man, who for some reason was interested in her, how well does he have to know the technology to be tracking her? He probably needs to have some hacking abilities? Some specific interests?

Then, if we are thinking about Delphi area, maybe the person’s interests are not only hunting or fishing, but computer technologies, too? That could narrow the circle of potential suspects. (Or, he had to have rapid access to the girls’ SM. Or even, both computer interests + have access to their media).

(ETA) and if in addition, he uses left hand as dominant for some motor activities (LE probably knows it), not necessarily for writing, but for sports, or fishing/hunting, this could be an additional factor. Not sure we can tell it from the photo, though.

 

[moonlessnight]

I was in a meditative state and the idea of Abby's journal came to me. I think they were lured by someone. Could BG have somehow picked up one of the girls' journals/diaries and lured them there to give it back to them?

Hi StarryStarryNight,

JMO
IF the girls posted/messaged “we’re going to take pictures of the bridge”, or something similar which specifies the MHB as their destination, it seems all someone would have to do is hang out on the trail near the bridge where they could see people approaching from both directions, or at least the direction from which the girls would most likely come. This assumes BG was monitoring a social media account which the girls posted to and that he was in the Delphi area when they posted it. It also assumes the girls were specifically targeted.
JMO

~RIP M+J

 

[Hoosier952]

And, to add to this, what if the killer had frequented RL's property at other times as in helping around the farm and riding horses? That allows for plausible deniability. One could expect to find his DNA there.

Plausible deniability has been in the back of my mind since the beginning. Any DNA from the scene rather than on the girls or any touch/transfer DNA on the girls themselves could easily be written off.

I'd imagine most people would happily confess to trespassing if it meant not getting questioned in a murder. Anyone who visited or worked for RL. Anyone searching for the girls. Anyone who had visited the families' homes or been in one of the families' vehicles the girls had ridden in recently. They'd all have an excuse for why their DNA was anywhere close to the girls.

NP.
There has been either two or three bomb threats called in there in the past. Definitely no arrest for the one in February 2017 though.

Could have been a ruse to enter the plant....

Could have been a ruse to get LE to divert their resources to a brand new assignment (finding out who called it in)....

Could be completely unconnected....

JMO

I wonder how many searches were going on those days? AFAIK, there was only one highly publicized search on Bicycle Rd, and I don't think LE intended for it to be made so public and let the press know as much. I'm guessing there were a lot more low key searches going on in the background we never heard about. It's been my feeling all along that RL wasn't ever on LE's radar for being a suspect, but he was easy to keep media attention on, allowing them to work elsewhere without the public finding out.

I have a feeling the bomb threat was either a distraction by LE to keep media there instead of elsewhere or to allow them to search and speak with tons of people in the area without it looking like it was related to the case. I'm also not sure how accommodating a huge plant like that would be to LE. Presumably it would halt or slow production a significant amount and cost a ton in lost revenue.

The boots were interesting. Does anyone know if the company requires employees on the processing floor to wear a specific boot or if they are provided by the plant? It may have been taken to rule out as the source of tracks left at the scene. You would have thought if they were a specific employee's boots, it would have been made very public in a hurry.

 

[moonlessnight]

Think about this headline: "Somebody has named the right person".
That tells me they know who the killer is. If they didn't, they would not say something as definitive as this. They would say that someone knows who this is, or, we have probably gotten the right tip. I don't think they would say this if they didn't know that someone named the person they know to be the killer. I don't think they would say this if they just heard so many names they assume someone must have named the actual killer based on chance.

There's some other interesting stuff in this article about DNA - they won't confirm they have it but they say they will check with genealogy websites and use any new tech that comes along. This makes it clear they have familial DNA but cannot narrow it to one person.

And AW states that the girls died: "horrifically.... horrifically".

I think the killer's regular voice will not sound like the audio. I think he was in an altered state (not MPD/DID) but more like severe dysregulation or bipolar type-psychosis (not insanity) and his voice was not how it usually sounds.

https://www.investigationdiscovery....the-right-person-in-investigation-of-delphi-s

 

[distracted]

As an old Methodist, I’m pulling out my Bible and now looking at Leviticus, Luke, and Matthew, since I believe there is a religious component and DC did not accidentally throw in “The Shack” reference.

It’s weird how I’m now watching 2017 Jan, Feb, Mar local sermons on you tube.

You've got me wondering about this now, too.

 

[distracted]

Unfortunately, I do think a SM app was used to target one or both of the girls. If you post a quick snap about where you're going and you don't personally know all of your followers, then you're giving someone a head's up about your plans. The messages of some apps disappear into the ether but what about the list of followers? Tech might actually be able to determine who was following them at that time. Although now that so much time has passed, it might be too late.

 

[mavryk]

"Why This Scientist Keeps Receiving Packages of Serial Killers’ Hair
Getting sufficient DNA out of a rootless hair has long been considered impossible. A scientist, better known for work with ancient fossils, has figured it out. It’s a game-changer for crime and surveillance."
-New York Times, 9/16/19

 

[k-mac]

ive gotten really behind on this thread!
just reading some posts back a bit about targeted verses non targeted.

if it wasn't targeted specifically to libby and abby imo if BG went there with murderous random intentions you would have to think he had put some thought into the location and picked somewhere he knows BUT would NOT BE ASSOCIATED with or recognised.

if it was targeted to libby and abby THERE HAS TO BE breadcrumbs.

(this post doesn't even count the audio or video!)

moo

 

[tresir2012]

ive gotten really behind on this thread!
just reading some posts back a bit about targeted verses non targeted.

if it wasn't targeted specifically to libby and abby imo if BG went there with murderous random intentions you would have to think he had put some thought into the location and picked somewhere he knows BUT would NOT BE ASSOCIATED with or recognised.

if it was targeted to libby and abby THERE HAS TO BE breadcrumbs.

(this post doesn't even count the audio or video!)

moo

It could also have just been targeted to one of them and the other was collateral just for being there and/or fighting back. MOO

 

[tresir2012]

There is another murder case locally where the perp is considering an insanity defence.

Do posters think this could be a similar occurrence where the perp could be suffering from such a condition?

The "Model Penal Code" Test for Legal Insanity - FindLaw

 

[rainwaterstill]

There is another murder case locally where the perp is considering an insanity defence.

Do posters think this could be a similar occurrence where the perp could be suffering from such a condition?

The "Model Penal Code" Test for Legal Insanity - FindLaw

Indiana does NOT have a "not guilty by reason of insanity " type of plea. Instead, the state has a "guilty but insane". This has been on the books for decades in Indiana. When Ronald Reagan was shot in the early 1980s, Indiana received a LOT of attention, because at the time, they were the only state that had a "guilty but insane" plea. Some other states have since followed suit, but many have not.
Plead "guilty but insane" and if the court finds it to be true, the person is sent to a mental health facility for treatment. When they are deemed "cured" they are then transferred to prison to serve their sentence. IIRC, Indiana's law has been upheld repeatedly by federal and appeals courts, including SCOTUS.

 

[tresir2012]

Indiana does NOT have a "not guilty by reason of insanity " type of plea. Instead, the state has a "guilty but insane". This has been on the books for decades in Indiana. When Ronald Reagan was shot in the early 1980s, Indiana received a LOT of attention, because at the time, they were the only state that had a "guilty but insane" plea. Some other states have since followed suit, but many have not.
Plead "guilty but insane" and if the court finds it to be true, the person is sent to a mental health facility for treatment. When they are deemed "cured" they are then transferred to prison to serve their sentence. IIRC, Indiana's law has been upheld repeatedly by federal and appeals courts, including SCOTUS.

I don't think I stated "not guilty by reason of insanity" did I? The link I quoted actually mentions the same case you quote so I don't understand your point.

I am asking if posters think BG is insane?

 

[Strowbs]

Jamie Closs crossed a street.

This got me thinking, what if this is more of a Jayme Closs situation? Random incounter causes perp to have an infatuation with one of the girls. He bides his time waiting for an opportunity. Hears on the radio an announcement saying school is out today. Stalks her at her home waiting fir her to leave. Follows the car to the trails. Can't believe his luck, location is perfect. Just so happens that her friend is with her, but it's just a minor wrench thrown in the plans. They're just teenage girls after all, right? Tries to abduct both anyways but is overwhelmed and has to kill them where they are.
If Jayme Closs didn't escape, would her abductor ever have been caught?

 

[IceIce9]

Agreed, it's pathetic. I have actually heard of cases were an annoyed girlfriend or wife has given the perp up after an argument, so as unlikely as it is hopefully if he's married or dating (i doubt it personally) a falling out leads to his wife/gf giving him up.

A high profile case in Indianapolis was solved several years ago when the killer’s son broke up with his girlfriend. She immediately went to police with evidence.

 

[Nadal]

A high profile case in Indianapolis was solved several years ago when the killer’s son broke up with his girlfriend. She immediately went to police with evidence.

That sounds familiar, which case?

 

[TL4S]

Just a thought....the killer intends to target one of the girls. He finds out they are headed to the trails and thinks this is my opportunity and heads there himself.
Even then there is no way he could know where on the trails he would find the girls, or what they would be doing, or who they might have seen there and decided to hang out with, etc. In order for his targeting to be successful he has to find the girls alone and isolated, with no one reasonably close or in eyesight. And he lucks out and that happens.
It’s just as possible he heads to the trails and none of it lines up and he leaves with the girls unharmed. Then the thought is, how many times does this happen, at the trails or other places, with him trying to target the girls before it works? My point is, I guess, that the chances of a killer that is targeting one of them to be successful on that day, is very small I think. It is possible though. Maybe he just got lucky.
For the above reasons I don’t think the girls were targeted in the sense that someone planned all this beforehand, catfishing them, tracking on their phone etc. I do think it’s possible somebody felt they had a grudge or score to settle and thought hurting the girls would satisfy that, and a random opportunity presented itself and they took advantage of it.
Just my opinion. Don’t hate me.

I like your questions here.

In my mind, the simplest explanation is:

• BG drives by and sees the girls dropped off alone.
• There aren't any other cars in the lot, so he drives to the CPS parking area and sees there aren't any (or many) cars there, either.
• He parks and shoves a gun or knife he had in the car into his pocket and walks.
  
• From this direction he knows he'll meet up with them no matter which way they go at the fork on the trail. Once he's out there and knows nobody else is around, he corners them at the end of the bridge where it's isolated.

Now the question is, was he following them already, or did he just happen to see them and saw an opportunity? I don't know the answer. I used to lean towards this being random, but then I recently learned the path KG drove to drop them off was from east to west on W 300 N past the cemetery. That's the same direction I always felt BG would have been driving if he ended up parking at the CPS lot after seeing the girls. So I'm starting to wonder if maybe he was indeed following them.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I like your questions here.

In my mind, the simplest explanation is:

• BG drives by and sees the girls dropped off alone.
• There aren't any other cars in the lot, so he drives to the CPS parking area and sees there aren't any (or many) cars there, either.
• He parks and shoves a gun or knife he had in the car into his pocket and walks.
  
• From this direction he knows he'll meet up with them no matter which way they go at the fork on the trail. Once he's out there and knows nobody else is around, he corners them at the end of the bridge where it's isolated.

Now the question is, was he following them already, or did he just happen to see them and saw an opportunity? I don't know the answer. I used to lean towards this being random, but then I recently learned the path KG drove to drop them off was from east to west on W 300 N past the cemetery. That's the same direction I always felt BG would have been driving if he ended up parking at the CPS lot after seeing the girls. So I'm starting to wonder if maybe he was indeed following them.

Your scenario is pretty much identical to my initial theory of things, except I had him parking in the cemetery, not knowing KG had driven east to west. I see your point about intent that this idea might show, and it’s a good one.
I’ll have to think on this a bit. Gosh, I just think the cemetery is involved somehow, but that might be wrong.

 

[sunshineray]

This was interesting. The sheriff saying 11 months after the murders that LE were still digging deeper into certain people's cell phone activity on the day of the murders. I wonder what about them wasn't adding up in investigators minds?

"One thing they’ve been doing is conducting additional follow-up on information provided by working with technology, mainly from cell phones.

“Some investigators continue to dig deeper into backtracking what certain people were doing on February 13”, he said, of the information captured from cell phones in the area that day."

Case of Delphi teen murders has not gone cold, sheriff says

 

[Mike Britton]

There is another murder case locally where the perp is considering an insanity defence.

Do posters think this could be a similar occurrence where the perp could be suffering from such a condition?

The "Model Penal Code" Test for Legal Insanity - FindLaw

Insanity means the perp wasn't in control of his faculties, and was therefore unaccountable for the premeditation and execution of the crime.

Our perp must be able to keep it together, disguise himself, maintain a low profile in the aftermath of a cold-blooded act of murder that broke the hearts of many people. This suggests a person whose nature isn't chaotic, IMO, but deliberate and measured. The kind of personality that would excel at sports and strategy.

If he isn't a sociopath (unlikely) and felt an insanity defense was likely because he was clinically "insane," he may well have given himself up by now. But we're not talking about a reasonable person. This is a person who is cool with escaping accountability by carrying on with his life as if nothing ever happened. Perhaps he sees it as a youthful misjudgment, or compartmentalizes it in some way that prevents his conscience from guiding his actions. MOO

 

[Charlot123]

I don't think I stated "not guilty by reason of insanity" did I? The link I quoted actually mentions the same case you quote so I don't understand your point.

I am asking if posters think BG is insane?

It is the case of “insane but sane”, you know?

He is insane to kill someone who has not done anything bad to him. Not when protecting himself, or his family, but just because. The thinking behind harming another human being for no reason is insanity to me. And if the murders were horrific, even more so.

But - he is sane enough to avoid being seen or leaving a lot of other traces, or to plan elaborately.

So even if I personally think he was delusional when doing this, he understood that it was wrong. So, sane.

But mentally ill - definitely.