Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #113

[Charlot123]

True, but MOO when women are involved they usually take the role of luring the victims somewhere. Is as despicable as the crime

In abduction cases, women are sometimes the drivers, while men would grab the victim.

I would say these crimes are often unresolved as women behave less suspiciously.

 

[Charlot123]

If LE discovered something like that, they never would announce it to the public, IMO.

The idea, that the girls may have been users of the dark net, I don't find so very outlandish. A math "expert" (so equipped with logical thinking), smart, interested in crime/forensics - who knows, whether one girl at least had been -innocently- curious for discovering, what is going on there "in the dark".

Yesterday I saw the breakdown of things dark web is used for. Lots, and many of them, essentially, neither illegal nor dark. Bitcoin would be one example.

 

[somequestions]

Interestingly, disability or not, but he walks very fast. And he could outrun two girls, unless there was someone else waiting for them on that clearing.

I have a question. Could the second person be involved? On the one hand, two people make the place “too crowded”. More people would have noticed someone, more witnesses. On the other hand, given how athletic the girls were, it is possible that two people could be involved.

What do you think?

(Things are often not what they look like. We think it is a “male” crime, but a woman could be waiting in the car at the wheel to facilitate the escape, for example.)

I think there is little to no information to suggest another person was there and participated in the crime along with the offender in this case. What you bring up is very interesting in terms of psychology. Have you ever heard of the bystander effect?

I think in our minds the aspect of the case that is so confusing to everyone and even police is this very important question: How, after the offender murdered Abigail Williams and Liberty German, did he leave the Monon High Bridge trail without being seen?

Minding your own business is a science within psychology itself. My answer would be that maybe this man walked in to the Monon High Bridge trail area and walked out? And people have major problems with that answer because they think it is not possible. So there must have been a car at the old CPS building or someone waiting in a car elsewhere to drive the killer away from the area. Or the guy had to have a car parked in the Delphi cemetery. But people often times do not take the time to notice. They think witnesses notice too.

Often times people only care when other people care. So my answer to the two sketches in this case would be that either the man the witnesses saw in those sketches is not the bridge guy or if it is the bridge guy, they did not take the time to notice enough details in order to provide police with a good composite sketch. Basically a witness may have seen this bridge guy, but did not pay that much attention to him because why would they?! They have no idea that at the time two girls have been murdered.

And this leads to psychology point number 2. AFTER the case becomes highly publicized and everyone is discussing it, then everyone wants to get involved. The slightest resemblance prompts tips to law enforcement about a person that may or may not be the bridge guy. And everyone is somewhat guilty of falling into this trap. A video is released from Liberty German's phone and we analyze and scrutinize it down to the most concentrated pixel hoping to glean some type of useful information. Is the killer right or left-handed? Does it matter? Sadly it seems the only person that paid close attention out on the Monon High Bridge that day was the 14 year old girl who filmed the man on the bridge with her phone.

Even when I look at cases on Websleuths the one thing I think about are all the other cases that do not get the same attention. With any case, enough time passes, things change, people barely remember, and the case fades away unresolved.

 

[Charlot123]

A second perp could possibly have been waiting “down the hill”?

I am still in awe that no one heard anything...like screams for help?
Certainly if one girl was suddenly attacked, the other one would have screamed?

is the environment /water running not conducive to the sound of travel at the site?

I think, very good timing. No one on the bridge, and probably, the people on the trails have left.

 

[Charlot123]

I think there is little to no information to suggest another person was there and participated in the crime along with the offender in this case. What you bring up is very interesting in terms of psychology. Have you ever heard of the bystander effect?

I think in our minds the aspect of the case that is so confusing to everyone and even police is this very important question: How, after the offender murdered Abigail Williams and Liberty German, did he leave the Monon High Bridge trail without being seen?

Minding your own business is a science within psychology itself. My answer would be that maybe this man walked in to the Monon High Bridge trail area and walked out? And people have major problems with that answer because they think it is not possible. So there must have been a car at the old CPS building or someone waiting in a car elsewhere to drive the killer away from the area. Or the guy had to have a car parked in the Delphi cemetery. But people often times do not take the time to notice. They think witnesses notice too.

Often times people only care when other people care. So my answer to the two sketches in this case would be that either the man the witnesses saw in those sketches is not the bridge guy or if it is the bridge guy, they did not take the time to notice enough details in order to provide police with a good composite sketch. Basically a witness may have seen this bridge guy, but did not pay that much attention to him because why would they?! They have no idea that at the time two girls have been murdered.

And this leads to psychology point number 2. AFTER the case becomes highly publicized and everyone is discussing it, then everyone wants to get involved. The slightest resemblance prompts tips to law enforcement about a person that may or may not be the bridge guy. And everyone is somewhat guilty of falling into this trap. A video is released from Liberty German's phone and we analyze and scrutinize it down to the most concentrated pixel hoping to glean some type of useful information. Is the killer right or left-handed? Does it matter? Sadly it seems the only person that paid close attention out on the Monon High Bridge that day was the 14 year old girl who filmed the man on the bridge with her phone.

Even when I look at cases on Websleuths the one thing I think about are all the other cases that do not get the same attention. With any case, enough time passes, things change, people barely remember, and the case fades away unresolved.

You are right. Not once have I heard about the situations of DV ending up in someone being killed, when the neighbors called the police not when the victim was still live and yelling, but when she’d stop yelling.

And today “the bystander effect” is seen more often, when kids and adults make videos of someone being tortured or beaten up, and put them out on the Internet. Why don’t they intervene? Because people around them are making videos, too.

As to the after part, I think on top of everything, people have different facial memory. 1:50 has prosopagnosia, or facial blindness. Probably more have partial prosopagnosia. One hopes for a super witness, with excellent facial memory, but it is an uncommon thing.

ETA: is it possible that some potential witnesses walked the Trails looking at their phone screens? And simply saw nothing?

 

[PezCandy]

Rehash of a point here, but it goes to clarity.

Is the BG seen in the video - and the voice captured in the audio - the same person?

Starting at around 7:45 of this 3/5/17 video, while discussing suspect vs. suspects, ISP Capt Bursten seems to say it may not be.

“People want to make the assumption that the voice saying down the hill belongs to the person in the image that’s captured from the cell phone. That’s not necessarily the case. We’re not making any assumptions about that.”

Yet, Sgt Carter clearly says yes after the PC.

“Please keep in mind that the person talking is one person and is the person on the bridge with the girls" Carter said. "This is not two people speaking. Please listen to it very, very carefully."

ISP says new audio, video and sketch shows Delphi killer

This is the stuff that confuses me cuz is the person in the video the same as audio and which sketch is he supposed to be cuz IMO the 2nd sketch to me don’t look like the guy in the video (my vision isn’t the best and it isn’t really a clear shot) he looks more like the guy in the 1st sketch. I don’t know, I was just hoping that by now we’d know at least something new, only recent stuff I see is about LE looking at PE. And i don’t even know what happened with all that. This is such a tragic case. LG took the video of him in case something happened, let’s hope that they get this guy before he strikes again. If he’s done this to 2 young girls what makes LE think he won’t do it again? That’s just troubling.

 

[pearl]

Yesterday I saw the breakdown of things dark web is used for. Lots, and many of them, essentially, neither illegal nor dark. Bitcoin would be one example.

Several years ago, I followed a case on WS where the dark web was discussed several times. Someone posted (I would not be able to find it due to the number of years that have passed.) that in addition to all of the bad things on it, it also included any server that is located in a hidden place. An example was given of a large company with its databases and business records on a dedicated server and the physical location of the server was unknown to the users. Of course, the physical location was known by a select few people.

 

[sunshineray]

This is the stuff that confuses me cuz is the person in the video the same as audio and which sketch is he supposed to be cuz IMO the 2nd sketch to me don’t look like the guy in the video (my vision isn’t the best and it isn’t really a clear shot) he looks more like the guy in the 1st sketch. I don’t know, I was just hoping that by now we’d know at least something new, only recent stuff I see is about LE looking at PE. And i don’t even know what happened with all that. This is such a tragic case. LG took the video of him in case something happened, let’s hope that they get this guy before he strikes again. If he’s done this to 2 young girls what makes LE think he won’t do it again? That’s just troubling.

The second younger sketch is the face of the killer, the man on the bridge captured by Libby on her phone's camera. That is what LE has said.

 

[Nadal]

Yesterday I saw the breakdown of things dark web is used for. Lots, and many of them, essentially, neither illegal nor dark. Bitcoin would be one example.

It's not called "dark" because it has dark things on it, it's called dark in the way that the ocean gets dark the deeper you go because light doesn't reach that far, it's just websites that aren't indexed by search engines. Onion Routing (what TOR does, it's The Onion Router) was invented by the US Navy. It's not all illegal, some people use it for innocent reasons, the concept is very Libertarian some people simply want privacy. But of course when bad people found out about it they started using it for nefarious purposes. It's not the same as the internet we use, you can't simply type into a Dark Web search engine and get websites, you need to know which websites you are looking for because the URL's are things like 57989808579938.onion. There's a dark web wiki which gives you some sites but you need to find out the URL for that and that only takes you to a very limited amount of sites available.

I'd recommend the Casefile episodes on The Silk Road which was an online drug market on the dark web if they're interested in finding out more about it and specifically how criminals use it.

I do personally find the girls using it pretty outlandish though and again they wouldn't have to be using it to be preyed on by someone who was.

 

[Nadal]

Several years ago, I followed a case on WS where the dark web was discussed several times. Someone posted (I would not be able to find it due to the number of years that have passed.) that in addition to all of the bad things on it, it also included any server that is located in a hidden place. An example was given of a large company with its databases and business records on a dedicated server and the physical location of the server was unknown to the users. Of course, the physical location was known by a select few people.

I don't know if that's true or not but for the record there's ALOT of urban legends about the dark/deep web. They are basically a genre of creepypasta at this point.

 

[Hansen]

Has anyone ever asked or know why the FBI was involved so quickly?
I think this case needs fresh eyes. I also think it needs fresh eyes that have no ties to the community. Re-look at everything, account for every LE or former LE employee in Delphi or the county LE, city or county worker, comb any and all video surveillance. Ask questions like why wasn’t the scene secured overnight and not accept the previous answers. Let’s dog in to this and find out why the hell they weren’t out there w lights and dogs overnight. Absolutely no one cares about it being too dark, cold etc as a reason. Lean on any and all local drug rings and pedo types. I think it’s fair to say local LE is in over their heads barring a major tip. All the locals say everyone knows everyone and if that’s true that means the perp isn’t local or someone is lying/covering things up.
Has anyone asked if LE knows what car was parked in the abandoned lot or if they’re asking for tips to verify? How could LE not know that?
In my opinion I don’t think social media had anything to do with this. They would’ve discovered a lead out of the online footprint if it was.
As for the dark web- this to me makes zero sense. You need a Tor browser to access it. They either had one loaded on whichever device or didn’t. It’s that simple.

 

[pearl]

I don't know if that's true or not but for the record there's ALOT of urban legends about the dark/deep web. They are basically a genre of creepypasta at this point.

I did a little research. I was mistaking the Deep Web and the Dark Web.

 

[somequestions]

You are right. Not once have I heard about the situations of DV ending up in someone being killed, when the neighbors called the police not when the victim was still live and yelling, but when she’d stop yelling.

And today “the bystander effect” is seen more often, when kids and adults make videos of someone being tortured or beaten up, and put them out on the Internet. Why don’t they intervene? Because people around them are making videos, too.

As to the after part, I think on top of everything, people have different facial memory. 1:50 has prosopagnosia, or facial blindness. Probably more have partial prosopagnosia. One hopes for a super witness, with excellent facial memory, but it is an uncommon thing.

ETA: is it possible that some potential witnesses walked the Trails looking at their phone screens? And simply saw nothing?

I do not think potential witnesses even needed to be on their phones to see nothing. They may have walked or drove by the bridge guy and saw nothing.

Despite the problems there might be with the witness sketches, I still try and hope that the case of Abigail Williams and Liberty German will be solved.

 

[Boxer]

The second younger sketch is the face of the killer, the man on the bridge captured by Libby on her phone's camera. That is what LE has said.

MOO in the video, it's not even possible to be certain whether he is wearing a hat. The face is just too blurry and seems to suggest an old guy. But I always felt the legs were too thin for an older man, they would be atrophied, and that didn't match the activity going across a bridge, across a creek scrambling up a hill, killing two people and getting out. I think the police are on to the right age and sketch of a suspect, but wasted two years on the wrong age sketch.

 

[Torch Carrier]

I wonder, each and every day, what is the deal with the OBG v. NBG sketches. I wish LE could somehow shed some light on this as it might help those in Delphi/surrounding towns to offer up some info that might be of use if they better understood the odd disparity between the two sketches. I don't accept that LE simply went with the wrong sketch for 2 years. I think there is something more going on here.

 

[tresir2012]

I think there is little to no information to suggest another person was there and participated in the crime along with the offender in this case. What you bring up is very interesting in terms of psychology. Have you ever heard of the bystander effect?

I think in our minds the aspect of the case that is so confusing to everyone and even police is this very important question: How, after the offender murdered Abigail Williams and Liberty German, did he leave the Monon High Bridge trail without being seen?

Minding your own business is a science within psychology itself. My answer would be that maybe this man walked in to the Monon High Bridge trail area and walked out? And people have major problems with that answer because they think it is not possible. So there must have been a car at the old CPS building or someone waiting in a car elsewhere to drive the killer away from the area. Or the guy had to have a car parked in the Delphi cemetery. But people often times do not take the time to notice. They think witnesses notice too.

Often times people only care when other people care. So my answer to the two sketches in this case would be that either the man the witnesses saw in those sketches is not the bridge guy or if it is the bridge guy, they did not take the time to notice enough details in order to provide police with a good composite sketch. Basically a witness may have seen this bridge guy, but did not pay that much attention to him because why would they?! They have no idea that at the time two girls have been murdered.

And this leads to psychology point number 2. AFTER the case becomes highly publicized and everyone is discussing it, then everyone wants to get involved. The slightest resemblance prompts tips to law enforcement about a person that may or may not be the bridge guy. And everyone is somewhat guilty of falling into this trap. A video is released from Liberty German's phone and we analyze and scrutinize it down to the most concentrated pixel hoping to glean some type of useful information. Is the killer right or left-handed? Does it matter? Sadly it seems the only person that paid close attention out on the Monon High Bridge that day was the 14 year old girl who filmed the man on the bridge with her phone.

Even when I look at cases on Websleuths the one thing I think about are all the other cases that do not get the same attention. With any case, enough time passes, things change, people barely remember, and the case fades away unresolved.

How did he leave without being seen? He didn't. There were at least two who saw him leave. Now it seems some were mistaken as to who they saw or how old he was. Maybe they are protecting someone or are scared to say and describe who they really saw? We have Libby's video and voice recording and DNA/fingerprints hopefully to go by also, when he is caught.

 

[Nadal]

It's possible they are scared to describe who they really saw or whatever but it's much more likely they are simply faulty descriptions. Eyewitness testimony is highly unreliable under the best circumstances. There was a case where a woman had been told if she was ever attacked to study her attackers face, she did exactly that staring at him intently throughout yet she still managed to identify the wrong man. Years later when she found out she felt incredibly guilty and the guy she wrongly accused is now her friend, they wrote a book together on how bad eyewitness testimony usually is. That was someone actively trying to remember someone, if several people just walked by BG and thought he was a regular guy it wouldn't be surprising at all if they all gave wildly different descriptions.

 

[ScumbagTrav]

I hate to be this way...because i know LE would arrest BG if they could.

But every day BG goes free, its an insult to the heroism that Libby displayed that day. LE has praised her for switching on her device to record. There have long been rumors that Libby faught back. With LE's heavy praise of the girls (and rightly so) as heroes, i feel that wont be true until BG is brought to justice.

Gawd i hope its soon. The sun will shine a little brighter, im certain.

 

[sunshineray]

Has anyone ever asked or know why the FBI was involved so quickly?
I think this case needs fresh eyes. I also think it needs fresh eyes that have no ties to the community. Re-look at everything, account for every LE or former LE employee in Delphi or the county LE, city or county worker, comb any and all video surveillance. Ask questions like why wasn’t the scene secured overnight and not accept the previous answers. Let’s dog in to this and find out why the hell they weren’t out there w lights and dogs overnight. Absolutely no one cares about it being too dark, cold etc as a reason. Lean on any and all local drug rings and pedo types. I think it’s fair to say local LE is in over their heads barring a major tip. All the locals say everyone knows everyone and if that’s true that means the perp isn’t local or someone is lying/covering things up.
Has anyone asked if LE knows what car was parked in the abandoned lot or if they’re asking for tips to verify? How could LE not know that?
In my opinion I don’t think social media had anything to do with this. They would’ve discovered a lead out of the online footprint if it was.
As for the dark web- this to me makes zero sense. You need a Tor browser to access it. They either had one loaded on whichever device or didn’t. It’s that simple.

I have my own theory as to why the FBI was in on the investigation so early on. I think what ever was found at the murder scene, the way in which the victims were killed and left to be found, was obviously planned out with purpose. Local and state LE most likely took one look and thought serial killer. That's MOO

 

[bradfordsleuth]

I have my own theory as to why the FBI was in on the investigation so early on. I think what ever was found at the murder scene, the way in which the victims were killed and left to be found, was obviously planned out with purpose. Local and state LE most likely took one look and thought serial killer. That's MOO

There was an FBI agent participating in the search while Abby and Libby were still missing.

It is mentioned at this press conference on February 22, 2017 at the 13 minute and 9 second mark.

I would like to call it a stroke of good luck that there happened to be an FBI agent in town that day and that is what brought in the FBI into this investigation so early on.

If there was something the killer did that made it obvious that it was a SK, then possibly whatever it was is linked to Lizzie and Lyric? The similarities to that case are eerie.

It could explain the 6,000 billboards in 46 states and the radio ads that happened so quickly. Perhaps LE did not want to create a panic situation about a SK so they put those up 'quietly'?

Or not.

JMO, speculation, etc.