Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #114

[taximama24]

@SilentRogue While I do see your point, we also don't know exactly what LE has and doesn't have or is doing or isn't doing. I tend to think they a POI, and if not, they have a short list and that is why they can state the public is not in danger (they have eyes on them). They had a press conference, but that doesn't mean they were asking for help from a global audience, it just means they wanted to speak publicly on the case. In fact, they spent most of it talking directly to the suspect, and emphatically stated they believe the killer is local so that was very much a target audience. Also, they may know quite a bit about his life but just don't have what they feel would convict, so they want him feeling scrutinized by everyone else in his life, they want him walking on egg shells so someone notices the strange behavior, etc. Lots of reasons to have a press conference even if you have a POI...the father in Colorado was allowed to have a press conference to plead with his wife and daughters' killer, and they knew it was him.

 

[SilentRogue]

Feels like the man and his life will be discovered after the interrogation and arrest of the POI whose DNA matches their partial sample. The science is so razor sharp, traditional gumshoe techniques may not apply anymore.

Is there a pending or probable arrest of a POI whose DNA matches a partial sample? As it stands, we don't know they have a POI, or a confirmed offender DNA sample (full or partial).

 

[ScumbagTrav]

Is there a pending or probable arrest of a POI whose DNA matches their partial sample?

I, for one, am so glad ur back.

 

[SilentRogue]

@SilentRogue While I do see your point, we also don't know exactly what LE has and doesn't have or is doing or isn't doing. I tend to think they a POI, and if not, they have a short list and that is why they can state the public is not in danger (they have eyes on them). They had a press conference, but that doesn't mean they were asking for help from a global audience, it just means they wanted to speak publicly on the case. In fact, they spent most of it talking directly to the suspect, and emphatically stated they believe the killer is local so that was very much a target audience. Also, they may know quite a bit about his life but just don't have what they feel would convict, so they want him feeling scrutinized by everyone else in his life, they want him walking on egg shells so someone notices the strange behavior, etc. Lots of reasons to have a press conference even if you have a POI...the father in Colorado was allowed to have a press conference to plead with his wife and daughters' killer, and they knew it was him.

I disagree on many things, which I think is clear. I sincerely hope you're right and I'm wrong.

 

[Torch Carrier]

If law enforcement had identified one person, they'd be looking for that one tip, or one piece of evidence from that suspect, his family, friends, coworkers, associates, acquaintances. They'd be at his school, his job, his last job, the store(s) he frequents, his mechanic, restaurants. They'd be getting warrants for employment records, vehicle data, cell phone data, etc... for that suspect.

They wouldn't be casting a wide net in front of a global audience. As much as people invest in the idea that they have a "primary" suspect, I assure you as of the 4/22/19 press conference, there was no primary suspect.

Think about it, do they need or want to investigate tips from the public at large (think about the sheer volume of garbage they'd have to sort through) when they could simply focus all efforts on one man and every detail of his life generally and more specifically on 2/13/17?

I look at it differently. Perhaps they ARE doing all these things you have listed and HAVE BEEN for some time but are still looking for more evidence/info from locals to tie a few things together.

The 4/22 PC seemed very locally directed, to me. I've seen pics of my POI there. Maybe the 100 handouts were not all the same and who knows, he rec'd one with different wording or the image was in some way altered to get a response from him? They wanted him to sign in to the PC to get a handwriting sample, fresh DNA, prints?

IDK, just don't get why you insist LE have nothing. What do you know about the investigation? Are you a local there?

 

[SilentRogue]

I believe finding a DNA match this way would allow for probable cause for a search warrant, which can include a more properly administered DNA test (cheek swab) that would be admissible in court. This is why I am not convinced LE has DNA for this crime (perhaps a tainted or partial sample) and why they are so adamantly appealing to the public for that "one tip" they need to bring this case to justice. I don't think the "one tip' is referring to a name, I think they are looking for something to doubt an alibi, or something that would hold up in court to isolate the suspect from a related pair, etc.

If they got a warrant for something based on something else that was illegal, the fruits of the poisonous tree doctrine would render it inadmisabble. Undoubtedly, they'd try to get a second sample upon arrest, regardless of admissibility.

I look at it differently. Perhaps they ARE doing all these things you have listed and HAVE BEEN for some time but are still looking for more evidence/info from locals to tie a few things together.

The 4/22 PC seemed very locally directed, to me. I've seen pics of my POI there. Maybe the 100 handouts were not all the same and who knows, he rec'd one with different wording or the image was in some way altered to get a response from him? They wanted him to sign in to the PC to get a handwriting sample, fresh DNA, prints?

IDK, just don't get why you insist LE have nothing. What do you know about the investigation? Are you a local there?

... I've already talked, and been banned, for condemning folks and their "POI's", so I won't rehash that. I'll wait for something new to provoke censure.

Law enforcement dedicated resources to publically solicited tips when they announced a new sketch and released more audio, hoping to provoke a new lead from the public. Simply put, this is how they determined their resources would be best utilized - by responding and investigating thousands of vague tips based on a second sketch and some additional audio. This is not an action law enforcement would take if they had literally any other option.

Think about it. When a murder happens, followed very closely with an arrest, are the police actively soliciting general tips from the public, or are they focusing that investigation on a specific person once that person is identified?

>They wanted him to sign in to the PC to get a handwriting sample, fresh DNA, prints?

Stop. Believing. What. You. See. On. TV.

>IDK, just don't get why you insist LE have nothing. What do you know about the investigation? Are you a local there?

I do not believe they have anything because both their actions and inactions are those of an agency involved in an investigation with nothing, desperately wanting and hoping for something. I have as much personal knowledge of the investigation as you, which is nothing.

I am not a local, though my former mother in law lives in Lafayette, and my daughter visits frequently. None of this is relevant to the case. Though, this may play some role in my interest in the case. My ex-wife and her mother have no knowledge, intimately or otherwise, of the case.

 

[taximama24]

If they got a warrant for something based on something else that was illegal, the fruits of the poisonous tree doctrine would render it inadmisabble. Undoubtedly, they'd try to get a second sample upon arrest, regardless of admissibility.

Not sure I follow this, publicly obtained samples are not illegal, they are just not personally identifiable. If I obtain a sample from a public place, I cannot prove I obtained the sample from the person in question, but if I can prove that person has been there (i.e. they live there) and that sample is a perfect or partial match to some piece of evidence I have, than I have generated probable cause that someone in the home may have something to do with the crime. Then a judge can sign a search warrant for a cheek swab of the persons in that home, which would then be personally identifiable as the dna would be traceable from the point of collection, and this would absolutely be admissible. The man whom impregnated the woman in the vegetative state submitted his cheek swab because it was required on a probable cause search warrant of the facility employees.

I just don't think they have a good DNA sample in evidence. And I also don't think they were asking for "kitchen sink" tips at the press conference. They specifically asked to talk to anyone who saw an abandoned car at the CPS building. And when they released the new sketch they were talking to the killer and said "you never thought we'd change course and go in this direction," so there was a definitive purpose in that action. I'm not going to fall on the sword over it, but I do tend to think more than not that they have POIs for this case and the presser wasn't a big plea for tips.

 

[Tippy Lynn]

Not sure I follow this, publicly obtained samples are not illegal, they are just not personally identifiable. If I obtain a sample from a public place, I cannot prove I obtained the sample from the person in question, but if I can prove that person has been there (i.e. they live there) and that sample is a perfect or partial match to some piece of evidence I have, than I have generated probable cause that someone in the home may have something to do with the crime. Then a judge can sign a search warrant for a cheek swab of the persons in that home, which would then be personally identifiable as the dna would be traceable from the point of collection, and this would absolutely be admissible. The man whom impregnated the woman in the vegetative state submitted his cheek swab because it was required on a probable cause search warrant of the facility employees.

I just don't think they have a good DNA sample in evidence. And I also don't think they were asking for "kitchen sink" tips at the press conference. They specifically asked to talk to anyone who saw an abandoned car at the CPS building. And when they released the new sketch they were talking to the killer and said "you never thought we'd change course and go in this direction," so there was a definitive purpose in that action. I'm not going to fall on the sword over it, but I do tend to think more than not that they have POIs for this case and the presser wasn't a big plea for tips.

I agree!

 

[SilentRogue]

Not sure I follow this, publicly obtained samples are not illegal, they are just not personally identifiable. If I obtain a sample from a public place, I cannot prove I obtained the sample from the person in question, but if I can prove that person has been there (i.e. they live there) and that sample is a perfect or partial match to some piece of evidence I have, than I have generated probable cause that someone in the home may have something to do with the crime. Then a judge can sign a search warrant for a cheek swab of the persons in that home, which would then be personally identifiable as the dna would be traceable from the point of collection, and this would absolutely be admissible. The man whom impregnated the woman in the vegetative state submitted his cheek swab because it was required on a probable cause search warrant of the facility employees.

This is all accurate, yes. It is enough probable cause to perform an arrest, and get a warrant for a DNA sample. Once corroborated following arrest, all samples would be admissible - the scene sample, the sample obtained on abandoned property, and the sample obtained by warrant.

I just don't think they have a good DNA sample in evidence. And I also don't think they were asking for "kitchen sink" tips at the press conference. They specifically asked to talk to anyone who saw an abandoned car at the CPS building. And when they released the new sketch they were talking to the killer and said "you never thought we'd change course and go in this direction," so there was a definitive purpose in that action. I'm not going to fall on the sword over it, but I do tend to think more than not that they have POIs for this case and the presser wasn't a big plea for tips.

I disagree.

 

[Tippy Lynn]

This is all accurate, yes. It is enough probable cause to perform an arrest, and get a warrant for a DNA sample. Once corroborated following arrest, all samples would be admissible - the scene sample, the sample obtained on abandoned property, and the sample obtained by warrant.



I disagree.

In your opinion, what was the purpose of the 4/22 presser?

 

[tresir2012]

You can get a persons DNA by one of three ways:

1) Voluntarily;

2) Abandoned property;

3) With a warrant.

If they really wanted it, they'd have it.

Hey welcome back. Anything new?

 

[SilentRogue]

In your opinion, what was the purpose of the 4/22 presser?

A passive announcement that their investigation had stalled and they were starting from scratch and hoping that releasing the new sketch and additional audio would conjure a tip that could revive the investigation.

 

[SilentRogue]

Hey welcome back. Anything new?

Unfortunately, I don't have much to contribute- new or old. Just discussion.

 

[kc1023]

A passive announcement that their investigation had stalled and they were starting from scratch and hoping that releasing the new sketch and additional audio would conjure a tip that could revive the investigation.

I suppose that is what BG would hope but it didn't come across as very passive to most people I'd say. Rather it was quite animated and reactive. IMO

 

[tresir2012]

I have real doubts that they have DNA. We know LE parked and went all over and around the cemetery. We know from Kelsie's narratives how many searchers were around when the girls were discovered. There is even a pic of a detective searching the bank area of the crime scene on 14 Feb and he doesn't even have a forensic suit on. Then the 1000 searchers who searched late into the evening and early morning can only mean a contaminated area for DNA purposes. Then the touch DNA from the girls themselves would make it impossible to identify perp DNA, unless there was SA, which in the time available, I do not think there was. He will be caught by his previous crimes coming to light or by a tip from family or an acquaintance IMO.

 

[SilentRogue]

I suppose that is what BG would hope but it didn't come across as very passive to most people I'd say. Rather it was quite animated and reactive. IMO

I think if it were directed towards a specific POI, the only people who would know would be that POI and the investigation team. Likewise, BG wouldn't have much to hope for - considering you're arguing they were directly pointing at him.

 

[kc1023]

I think if it were directed towards a specific POI, the only people who would know would be that POI and the investigation team. Likewise, BG wouldn't have much to hope for - considering you're arguing they were directly pointing at him.

I didn't say anything like that? I disagreed with you that it seemed passive. There is probably at least an entire thread of these 114 that followed that PC which wouldn't seem to match with your impression. And why then would they randomly have a passive press conference after just having the 2 year anniversary PC 2 mos prior? JMO

 

[SilentRogue]

I didn't say anything like that? I disagreed with you that it seemed passive. There is probably at least an entire thread of these 114 that followed that PC which wouldn't seem to match with your impression. And why then would they randomly have a passive press conference after just having the 2 year anniversary PC 2 mos prior? JMO

Maybe you're misunderstanding what I meant by passive. I meant an indirect (passive) announcement that they were on a road to nowhere and needed to turn around. I'm not sure where reactive and animated comes into in rebuttal to that statement but I assumed you were parroting the idea that they're behavior was that of law enforcement on a hot trail.

I remember when the press conference happened, everyone was SURE that an arrest was imminent... yet here we are. That being said, I think you can understand why I might be hesitant to adopt the views of many members of this site.

I can't comment on why they chose that time. Maybe they'd just decided, as the evidence had come to a halt, that they needed to "shift gears" if they ever hoped to close the case. I mean, 2 years is a long while to be where they are. Realistically, the odds are not good and they're getting worse.

 

[Justice101]

Absolutely nothing. I've just been here so long they've given me a star - like emeritus without the status. Kidding. I'm a theoretical mathematician, industrial designer, educator, instructional designer, engineering and architecture instructor, software monkey, and Smart Tech researcher. ... master at none.

Man, I thought I had some expertise in certain areas... but you have more than me! Kudos to you! You will no doubt be very helpful in certain areas like myself.

 

[Tippy Lynn]

Maybe you're misunderstanding what I meant by passive. I meant an indirect (passive) announcement that they were on a road to nowhere and needed to turn around. I'm not sure where reactive and animated comes into in rebuttal to that statement but I assumed you were parroting the idea that they're behavior was that of law enforcement on a hot trail.

I remember when the press conference happened, everyone was SURE that an arrest was imminent... yet here we are. That being said, I think you can understand why I might be hesitant to adopt the views of many members of this site.

I can't comment on why they chose that time. Maybe they'd just decided, as the evidence had come to a halt, that they needed to "shift gears" if they ever hoped to close the case. I mean, 2 years is a long while to be where they are. Realistically, the odds are not good and they're getting worse.

It’s only a matter of time before BG is caught. It might not be in the near future, but eventually the SOB will be locked up behind bars where he belongs.
Tick, tock.........
jmo