Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #114

[SilentRogue]

It’s only a matter of time before BG is caught. It might not be in the near future, but eventually the SOB will be locked up behind bars where he belongs. Tick, tock.........
jmo

I hope you're right, I also hope they find the offender responsible for the deaths of Lyric and Elizabeth, JonBenet, the Long Island Serial Killer, Elizabeth Short, and the disappearance of Madeleine McCan, and many more.

However, it seems more and more unlikely every day.

 

[JnRyan]

I have real doubts that they have DNA. We know LE parked and went all over and around the cemetery. We know from Kelsie's narratives how many searchers were around when the girls were discovered. There is even a pic of a detective searching the bank area of the crime scene on 14 Feb and he doesn't even have a forensic suit on. Then the 1000 searchers who searched late into the evening and early morning can only mean a contaminated area for DNA purposes. Then the touch DNA from the girls themselves would make it impossible to identify perp DNA, unless there was SA, which in the time available, I do not think there was. He will be caught by his previous crimes coming to light or by a tip from family or an acquaintance IMO.

I have slightly different opinion on it. I believe LE has unidentified DNA. By 'unidentified', I mean a full profile or a partial strong enough to use, but they haven't tied that profile to anyone. However, 1st Sgt Holeman inferred it was likely touch DNA that was obtained. LE probably has not been able to determine if the unidentified DNA is the killer's or it is there from some innocent person. And if they have more than one unidentified DNA then the problem becomes more complicated.

 

[Justice101]

I have slightly different opinion on it. I believe LE has unidentified DNA. By 'unidentified', I mean a full profile or a partial strong enough to use, but they haven't tied that profile to anyone. However, 1st Sgt Holeman inferred it was likely touch DNA that was obtained. LE probably has not been able to determine if the unidentified DNA is the killer's or it is there from some innocent person. And if they have more than one unidentified DNA then the problem becomes more complicated.

Interesting.

If the girls put on those clothes freshly that morning , then there would be very limited touch DNA on it (other than perhaps the actual 2 searchers who actually found their bodies). Those 2 people would be expected to have DNA on the girl(s). The other expected ones would be family members.

 

[Justice101]

<modsnip: quoted post was removed>

92% of all murders are solved. With video and a voice recording, the odds are good.. .although it might take a long time.

 

[Tippy Lynn]

92% of all murders are solved. With video and a voice recording, the odds are good.. .although it might take a long time.

I agree!

 

[SilentRogue]

92% of all murders are solved. With video and a voice recording, the odds are good.. .although it might take a long time.

The UCR from 2018 showed an approximately 62% clearance rate for murder and non-negligent homicide.

Clearances

Where do you get your 92% clearance rate?

 

[JnRyan]

Interesting.

If the girls put on those clothes freshly that morning , then there would be very limited touch DNA on it (other than perhaps the actual 2 searchers who actually found their bodies). Those 2 people would be expected to have DNA on the girl(s). The other expected ones would be family members.

I agree, but wasn't Abigail wearing zip-up hoodie? That is what it looks like in the photos. (I don't remember what Liberty was wearing.) For me, when I was growing up, such a garment was treated like a jacket and unless I got it unusually dirty I would wear it for days and even weeks before it was washed. If that is the case here LE wouldn't even know if DNA is even from that day. Though, I don't how long touch DNA would be on such a garment and be recoverable.

 

[almagata]

I've been reviewing the timeline again. There really was only around an hour for the murders to have taken place.

2:07 Libby take picture of Abby on bridge
2:13 Add six minutes to walk across the bridge at a consistent pace - the girls were probably moving slower
3:00ish Cheynne takes picture at north end of bridge and neither the girls or BG are in sight
3:11 & 3:14 Derrik calls the girls
3:30 Derrik is on trail looking for girls asks FSG if he has seen them and he says only he saw only a couple under the bridge
4:00 Family in area searching for girls

To me, BG and the girls were likely in contact with each other 2:15-3:30, perhaps even until 4:00 but once the family was in the area calling for the girls, I think BG would have retreated.

I don't believe, given the time frame and location, that this was some master planned attack. I think it is more likely that it was either a robbery gone wrong or a displaced anger attack where one of the girls reminded BG of someone he hated in his life and he took that rage out on one or more of the girls.

Given that the attack was near Valentine's Day, either could be possible. He could have needed money to buy stuff for someone else or he could be angry at unrequited love.

I think BG may have been in the area intending to drink or do drugs or go target shooting (to sooth his woes) or some combination of the three and he happened to see the girls and then the events unfolded. He may have even been suicidal and instead of killing himself, he ended up killing the girls.

He may have hurt one of the girls initially in his rage then realized he had made a huge mistake so he felt he had to kill both girls.

This is all conjecture based on information that has been made public and supposition on my part.

 

[beandawgs]

Just some things I was thinking about — the guy in the picture that Liberty took with her phone must have been doing something that concerned her for her to take the picture you think ? Also I keep wondering why they both followed when he ordered them “down the hill” - it makes me think he was someone they knew already and they didn’t think he was going to kill them ... any thoughts on this? I guess my first instinct would have been to start screaming and run .

 

[Eagle12]

I agree, but wasn't Abigail wearing zip-up hoodie? That is what it looks like in the photos. (I don't remember what Liberty was wearing.) For me, when I was growing up, such a garment was treated like a jacket and unless I got it unusually dirty I would wear it for days and even weeks before it was washed. If that is the case here LE wouldn't even know if DNA is even from that day. Though, I don't how long touch DNA would be on such a garment and be recoverable.

Yes, from what I have read, Abby spent the night at Libby’s house and wore the same clothes she had on the day before. Both girls wore zip up sweatshirts that were Kelsi’s that she had in her car. Not sure where they were at in her car or how long they had been there, but would definitely think they would have dna from a variety of sources on them.

 

[sleuther0192837465]

Just some things I was thinking about — the guy in the picture that Liberty took with her phone must have been doing something that concerned her for her to take the picture you think ? Also I keep wondering why they both followed when he ordered them “down the hill” - it makes me think he was someone they knew already and they didn’t think he was going to kill them ... any thoughts on this? I guess my first instinct would have been to start screaming and run .

I agree with most of your post. However, IMO, the girls would have said his name if they knew him. I believe he had a weapon to control the girls.
A lot of people might freeze in those situations & not be able to scream, but I still think a weapon was involved.
MOO

 

[TheVisual]

I've been reviewing the timeline again. There really was only around an hour for the murders to have taken place.

2:07 Libby take picture of Abby on bridge
2:13 Add six minutes to walk across the bridge at a consistent pace - the girls were probably moving slower
3:00ish Cheynne takes picture at north end of bridge and neither the girls or BG are in sight
3:11 & 3:14 Derrik calls the girls
3:30 Derrik is on trail looking for girls asks FSG if he has seen them and he says only he saw only a couple under the bridge
4:00 Family in area searching for girls

To me, BG and the girls were likely in contact with each other 2:15-3:30, perhaps even until 4:00 but once the family was in the area calling for the girls, I think BG would have retreated.

I don't believe, given the time frame and location, that this was some master planned attack. I think it is more likely that it was either a robbery gone wrong or a displaced anger attack where one of the girls reminded BG of someone he hated in his life and he took that rage out on one or more of the girls.

Given that the attack was near Valentine's Day, either could be possible. He could have needed money to buy stuff for someone else or he could be angry at unrequited love.

I think BG may have been in the area intending to drink or do drugs or go target shooting (to sooth his woes) or some combination of the three and he happened to see the girls and then the events unfolded. He may have even been suicidal and instead of killing himself, he ended up killing the girls.

He may have hurt one of the girls initially in his rage then realized he had made a huge mistake so he felt he had to kill both girls.

This is all conjecture based on information that has been made public and supposition on my part.

Because Abby was at the end of the bridge when the 2:07 photo was posted then the crossing had to have occurred before that, right? So crossing would had to have occurred at the very least at 2:01.. Drop off was at 1:38 so not much time lapsed between that and the 2:07 picture. JMO

 

[Elsa Johanssen]

Because Abby was at the end of the bridge when the 2:07 photo was posted then the crossing had to have occurred before that, right? So crossing would had to have occurred at the very least at 2:01.. Drop off was at 1:38 so not much time lapsed between that and the 2:07 picture. JMO

Good timeline. I think it shows he was waiting and JMO he knew they were being dropped off. He controlled it. I think that's how that word ties into what LE says.

 

[Spartygirl]

Just some things I was thinking about — the guy in the picture that Liberty took with her phone must have been doing something that concerned her for her to take the picture you think ? Also I keep wondering why they both followed when he ordered them “down the hill” - it makes me think he was someone they knew already and they didn’t think he was going to kill them ... any thoughts on this? I guess my first instinct would have been to start screaming and run .

IMO, he flashed a gun or a badge of some sort and that made them compliant to do what he said. JMO

 

[MingyMoo]

Not sure I follow this, publicly obtained samples are not illegal, they are just not personally identifiable. If I obtain a sample from a public place, I cannot prove I obtained the sample from the person in question, but if I can prove that person has been there (i.e. they live there) and that sample is a perfect or partial match to some piece of evidence I have, than I have generated probable cause that someone in the home may have something to do with the crime. Then a judge can sign a search warrant for a cheek swab of the persons in that home, which would then be personally identifiable as the dna would be traceable from the point of collection, and this would absolutely be admissible. The man whom impregnated the woman in the vegetative state submitted his cheek swab because it was required on a probable cause search warrant of the facility employees.

I just don't think they have a good DNA sample in evidence. And I also don't think they were asking for "kitchen sink" tips at the press conference. They specifically asked to talk to anyone who saw an abandoned car at the CPS building. And when they released the new sketch they were talking to the killer and said "you never thought we'd change course and go in this direction," so there was a definitive purpose in that action. I'm not going to fall on the sword over it, but I do tend to think more than not that they have POIs for this case and the presser wasn't a big plea for tips.

I Quite simply believe they have DNA and that it is touch DNA and very difficult to eliminate or include possible DNA. That LE et al is busy including or excluding which is easier said than done from my amateur opinion. A long process. The simple terms can be explained here which I believe is MSM.

JMHO
Mingy

 

[JnRyan]

Yes, from what I have read, Abby spent the night at Libby’s house and wore the same clothes she had on the day before. Both girls wore zip up sweatshirts that were Kelsi’s that she had in her car. Not sure where they were at in her car or how long they had been there, but would definitely think they would have dna from a variety of sources on them.

Wow! Doesn't that really expand the pool of potential DNA contributors. It made me think. I keep a sweatshirt, along with a knit watch cap and gloves on the back seat of my car. I pull the sweatshirt out on occasion when I am out longer than I expected and when I get home it goes back in the car. It probably been 5 years since I washed it. I doubt if Kelsi's were back there that long, but if she wore one or the other on occasion over the winter and tossed them back in the car we've got more possibilities than the day of the murders.

 

[beandawgs]

IMO, he flashed a gun or a badge of some sort and that made them compliant to do what he said. JMO

Also keeping in mind their young age - I personally have had an acquaintance who was kidnapped, raped and murdered at gunpoint by a stranger - I’ve learned that it is better to scream and run risking getting shot rather than comply. I got held up in a mall parking lot and did just that - ran. We may never know but I just wonder what he was doing that was making them so uncomfortable that made Liberty start taking pics.

 

[almagata]

Because Abby was at the end of the bridge when the 2:07 photo was posted then the crossing had to have occurred before that, right? So crossing would had to have occurred at the very least at 2:01.. Drop off was at 1:38 so not much time lapsed between that and the 2:07 picture. JMO

The bridge is about 840 feel long and when the 2:07 picture was taken Libby was on the third platform from the north side shooting the picture back toward the north side. The third platform is about 340 feet from the north side. They had another 500 feet or so to get to the south end of the bridge.

It probably was closer to 4 minutes from the third platform rather than 6.

 

[Aydrianna523]

Just some things I was thinking about — the guy in the picture that Liberty took with her phone must have been doing something that concerned her for her to take the picture you think ? Also I keep wondering why they both followed when he ordered them “down the hill” - it makes me think he was someone they knew already and they didn’t think he was going to kill them ... any thoughts on this? I guess my first instinct would have been to start screaming and run .

Well, someone pulled out a gun on me and I froze and gave them my purse as they requested.
And sometimes people think that if they just comply with the perp, s/he might let them go. If they're a split second from getting a shot to the head, they might think their chances are better if they comply.
Of course I have no idea if a gun was used. Probably imo. Would a knife have the same effect? Dunno.

 

[tresir2012]

Interesting.

If the girls put on those clothes freshly that morning , then there would be very limited touch DNA on it (other than perhaps the actual 2 searchers who actually found their bodies). Those 2 people would be expected to have DNA on the girl(s). The other expected ones would be family members.

Abby appeared to be wearing the same clothes that she had on in the pic of her practising with her softball glove in the hotel car park. Also, she had stayed the night at Libby's and borrowed a sweatshirt. So a lot of touch DNA there IMO.