Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #117

[Torch Carrier]

I am THANKFUL you all are still here beating the drum for Abby & Libby.
I will be especially THANKFUL if TODAY might be THE DAY.

 

[Soulmagent]

Where is all this talk of someone keen on blades coming from? Are those who talk of this referring to someone who has been buying, collecting, or selling blades online?

??
what talk?

 

[Awsi Dooger]

Completely agree. When you look at Google Maps using topography filter, I said very early on that the killer picked the perfect spot to kill the girls. It's far enough from the creek to not be seen (even in February with no leaves). It's far enough and down a steep slope from the cemetery to not be an easy place to hike to (and besides it doesn't go anywhere). It's also reachable from the NW end of the bridge (albeit around the side of a steep slope then straight down). But the biggest thing is there is a natural (or manmade) gravel pit like you said. Completely deadens sounds etc.

This was extremely well planned out in my opinion. Or he is the luckiest suck there has ever been for choosing a place to do his immoral and heinous deeds.

No question the murder spot is vastly superior than the original side of the creek. For reference, as I was standing in the middle of the creek rocks 3 weeks ago I didn't spend one second looking beyond the far bank while wondering...were the bodies there?...or perhaps over there?...or maybe it was 20 feet further in that direction?

There was no reason to do any of that because you simply can't see anything. I'm 6-3 but couldn't make anything out. The opposite bank is elevated perhaps 4-5 feet and considerably more dense and dark than the original side. The variance really stood out.

He either picked perfectly, or got very lucky based on where the girls tried to flee, or some combination of that. Maybe he allowed them to briefly scamper at early creek because he knew the water got considerably deeper beyond the midway point, so he'd have no trouble catching up and also the elevated bank was a natural regulator. I'm not sure if it's soft and muddy on that side before ascending, but I wouldn't be surprised. I was running into that variable numerous times while attempting to cross the creek on my wandering route back to the main parking area.

The risk for Bridge Guy was crossing the creek itself.<modsnip - not an approved source>

The murder location was best of all in terms of delaying the discovery and aiding departure. Bridge Guy knows darn well nobody is going to look over there in the initial minutes or hours. But if he leaves them on the bridge side it's a flat area with relatively sparse trees and also a local gravel access road just above.

Simply no comparison. But again, I don't think he had to be any type of local to figure that out, and quickly. I can speak in semi-definitive terms based on one 2 and a half hour visit. Falling Down is providing great summary and detail based -- apparently -- on small number of visits. The absorb gap from 0 visits to 1 is considerably greater than 1 to any subsequent number.

 

[Charlot123]

You can find it on Vimeo. It's only a short movie, under 20 minutes on a low budget. I don't see the connection. But it's all in the perception.

It is on YouTube, I found two versions. One of them has a man wearing the goggles, you remember how they sometimes make a sketch of BG? Very much alike. I saw this sketch several times, I don’t know who it was IRL.

 

[Falling Down]

No question the murder spot is vastly superior than the original side of the creek. For reference, as I was standing in the middle of the creek rocks 3 weeks ago I didn't spend one second looking beyond the far bank while wondering...were the bodies there?...or perhaps over there?...or maybe it was 20 feet further in that direction?

There was no reason to do any of that because you simply can't see anything. I'm 6-3 but couldn't make anything out. The opposite bank is elevated perhaps 4-5 feet and considerably more dense and dark than the original side. The variance really stood out.

He either picked perfectly, or got very lucky based on where the girls tried to flee, or some combination of that. Maybe he allowed them to briefly scamper at early creek because he knew the water got considerably deeper beyond the midway point, so he'd have no trouble catching up and also the elevated bank was a natural regulator. I'm not sure if it's soft and muddy on that side before ascending, but I wouldn't be surprised. I was running into that variable numerous times while attempting to cross the creek on my wandering route back to the main parking area.

The risk for Bridge Guy was crossing the creek itself. The reddit poster bitterbeatpoet posted a photo in that stickied thread of the view from the Sanders home atop the ridge. The back of that home offers a clear look at the creek in that area. I believe bitterbeatpoet removed the photo but another poster in that thread named Justwonderinif had already copied the photo. He reposted it subsequently.

The murder location was best of all in terms of delaying the discovery and aiding departure. Bridge Guy knows darn well nobody is going to look over there in the initial minutes or hours. But if he leaves them on the bridge side it's a flat area with relatively sparse trees and also a local gravel access road just above.

Simply no comparison. But again, I don't think he had to be any type of local to figure that out, and quickly. I can speak in semi-definitive terms based on one 2 and a half hour visit. Falling Down is providing great summary and detail based -- apparently -- on small number of visits. The absorb gap from 0 visits to 1 is considerably greater than 1 to any subsequent number.

Thanks, and again full disclosure, I have not been to the bridge area itself. Just the surrounding countryside, roads, cemetery, etc.

I hike a lot, and used to be even more active 10-15 years ago. I've hiked in 4 eastern states including here in IN where I live. I can picture what BG had in mind when he picked out the bridge area for his attack, and the secluded CS.

He had it all planned out, he needed to in order for all the variables he was working with working in his favor. The crimes had to take place in a manner of minutes.

When users here like Awsi Dooger, and folks I've seen who post to YouTube and image uploading sites, have gone out there and walked around I find that to be impressive to say the least. They've been to the actual scene of where this happened, and they have a feel for what BG was up to, and what the girls were up against.

The bridge and the gorge area where this happened cannot be seen from the surrounding countryside. The part of the gorge I saw is stunning in its beauty, very peaceful, too.

The murder location was best of all in terms of delaying the discovery and aiding departure. Bridge Guy knows darn well nobody is going to look over there in the initial minutes or hours. But if he leaves them on the bridge side it's a flat area with relatively sparse trees and also a local gravel access road just above.

He planned this part out, too. Time of year where the sun will set in early evening, and besides by then in that gorge it would be dark before sunset, below the lay of the surrounding countryside. Everything lined up for BG, and I'm convinced he was banking on the girls not being found until late evening or the following day. He had this all planned out.

Which tells me he's been there before, maybe many times.

JMO

 

[Charlot123]

I wonder how young the NBG was at the time this crime occurred. I wonder when his birthday is. I wonder if he was a minor when this crime occurred, and if so, he likely became of age by this time ... did his turning 18 have anything to do with LE releasing the NBG sketch? Just thoughts ... trying to figure out why the NBG sketch was released when it was. Could it really have been (as the FBI on Best Case/Worst Case pod seemed to suggest) that a RSO was found NOT to be involved here, then the NBG sketch was suddenly trotted out? That does not sound right to me. I wonder WHAT happened that brought about that 4/22 PC??? I wonder how old NBG was then, how old he is now ... ? Would his having reached the age of majority lead LE to handle things differently, assuming they know (but don't have sufficient evid to prove in court) who NBG is?
Lots of questions, wish I/we had more answers.

regardless of his age, they can not put the investigation on back burner for 2 years because of his relatively “minor” status.

it is another thing if he was more a witness, or instigated by someone else, and the other person could claim him being minor and protected, in some way. And now, at 18, this protection status is over as he entered a college, for example (so, the parents can not claim disability). Just an idea.

But still, letting someone known to wander around for two years...odd.

 

[Charlot123]

Similarly, I wonder about the post referring to numchuks (not sure I've spelled that right). What are they used for? Are they commonly used? Why do you think these are relevent here or is this just a total guess on someone's part?

Totally my guess. I was assuming the odd gait of BG was due to the fact that he was holding something under his jacket, something long, you can see the outline in his jeans, too. There were even jokes about it. So I started thinking of a battle instrument, so to say, that could be that flexible, and nunchaku was the first that came to mind. Moreover, there are several martial art studios in and around Delphi. And nunchaku are legally allowed in Indiana. So, no, I have no clue what he used, just think the outline of what he is carrying resembles nunchaku.
Nunchaku is Japanese battle instrument, coming in different forms, but basically, wooden sticks held together by a rope/string. You can Google “ninja weapon” and see them, and others, too. Such like katana (Samurai sword). No one is prohibited from collecting them, and Japanese theme is popular in this country, although I’d put BG into millennials group if he were into them.

it is mostly from karate world. However, no one can think twice of a Japanese martial art collections as “dangerous”, although it is such. I know some people, very peaceful, who sell them online, alongside with Japanese pearls.

Nunchaku - Wikipedia

 

[busymcmoody]

You can find it on Vimeo. It's only a short movie, under 20 minutes on a low budget. I don't see the connection. But it's all in the perception.

There is also no indication that this could be in any way connected, given what little we know. Staging or positioning could mean virtually anything. So that's even far fetched as speculation.

 

[Charlot123]

I don't know, if that is really possible, that BG had rods under his pant legs?
How would he have fixed it to his belt or the waistband, I'm wondering.
IF he had a rod/2 rods hidden, maybe Libby recognized it and became anxious? BUT he wasn't that near to her, when she videoed him; was she able to see it? Or did the girls recognized a tool in his pant legs already before, on the trail?
Thinking ....

Very interesting, but I initially thought, maybe not tools/weapons, but some braces? The person has a problem and it had to be fixed? Say, femoral joint replacement, or any other orthopedic surgery? JMO

 

[Charlot123]

There is also no indication that this could be in any way connected, given what little we know. Staging or positioning could mean virtually anything. So that's even far fetched as speculation.

true, but as long as 1) the case has been unsolved for soon-to-be-three-years, and
2) LE is feeding the public with “the Shack”, and nothing else, and talking to a ghost, as it now seems,
Be prepared that anyone will give his own ideas of what has happened.
And more.

 

[busymcmoody]

true, but as long as 1) the case has been unsolved for soon-to-be-three-years, and
2) LE is feeding the public with “the Shack”, and nothing else, and talking to a ghost, as it now seems,
Be prepared that anyone will give his own ideas of what has happened.
And more.

Oh I agree. But it's not lead-worthy. Know what I mean? It was suggested to report it - if there were items left behind at the CS, I'm sure LE has already looked into it.

 

[taximama24]

Powerful stuff and something tells me there was DNA reverse family tree research to thank for it. AJMO

I get that and agree, and in this day and age it would seem unheard of to not have DNA, so I guess my thought then is if DNA is able to rule people out or narrow in on people - with no arrest then maybe that means there is something "wrong" with the DNA that wouldn't allow it to hold up in court, hence the need for "that one tip." Either that, or perhaps the DNA allows them to identify a family but there is both a father and son that would "fit the bill" and thus far they have no way to discount one over the other.

 

[Ozoner]

I get that and agree, and in this day and age it would seem unheard of to not have DNA, so I guess my thought then is if DNA is able to rule people out or narrow in on people - with no arrest then maybe that means there is something "wrong" with the DNA that wouldn't allow it to hold up in court, hence the need for "that one tip." Either that, or perhaps the DNA allows them to identify a family but there is both a father and son that would "fit the bill" and thus far they have no way to discount one over the other.

My guess is that they only have mitochondrial DNA or a partial nuclear DNA profile that may or may not belong to the killer.
-
If they have the killer's DNA, then they don't have a POI. Otherwise, they would have made an arrest.

 

[Charlot123]

I get that and agree, and in this day and age it would seem unheard of to not have DNA, so I guess my thought then is if DNA is able to rule people out or narrow in on people - with no arrest then maybe that means there is something "wrong" with the DNA that wouldn't allow it to hold up in court, hence the need for "that one tip." Either that, or perhaps the DNA allows them to identify a family but there is both a father and son that would "fit the bill" and thus far they have no way to discount one over the other.

Well, you’d think that in JBR’s case they would have had the guts to at least preserve DNA, right? Instead, it became the travesty of justice, with powerful, rich suspects and police à la Keystone Cops.

If that case is not solved, why should we accept every other would be?

There should be DNA...

Options:

I assume that the ISP was smart and collected it from everywhere, the bridge, the spit, around the bodies, the bodies, and the pathologist did his job, too. I have to hope that real DC is calm, collected and rational.

So what can be wrong with the DNA?

1) My first thought, somehow, it disappeared. Or the chain of custody was broken.

I assume that ISP don’t handle the analysis themselves. Whoever they gave it to (who could it be?) did not return it and is merely giving them reports.

Or, it could be stolen en route. Or, the lab had the power outage.

But is it possible to assume that they had DNA at the beginning, and don’t have now?

Using Occam’s razor, this is my first guess. They planned to give it to Parabon, they had it, but in two years, they somehow lost it. MOO.

2) If they still have it, the viable DNA is:


Buried in the mess of others

Really destroyed by the perp

Who knows which is which?

3) In non-endogamous communities, a father and a son share 50% of the same DNA, the same Y, and usually, have different mito DNA. Granted, mito DNA might be the same if both father’s and son’s maternal lines came from the same woman (can happen in small villages), but it would be still uncommon. So it is not difficult to discriminate between the two, especially if you phase son’s DNA against his mom’s DNA. Even in partial, you could, potentially, figure out whose DNA it is. Gedmatch has an interesting function, Lazarus, that allows, if you have 50% of a person’s DNA, reconstruct most of it, using siblings, cousins and children. (I think it can be used if you have a huge family, a suspect and a partial DNA. In principle, an interesting thingy).

Another version - ISP has DNA from the bridge, and LE know who BG is, but it does not match DNA from the killing place. So they need a witness to the killing.

 

[Charlot123]

Lets see here, long tube numchuks would be one way. Could be used for many fiffetent things. Sex crime, weapon, etc. There are other ways to keep a rod or two in a pant leg too. It would t necessarily take a rocket surgeon to come up with a solution. jmo

Especially since there are a few martial art studios in Delphi, and a couple of top-rated ones nearby in Frankfort.

 

[soylattesandsleuthing]

You're right about the use of the word "participated". When one person is responsible, the word most often used is "committed". The word "participated" implies acting with someone else or a group.

I too read heavily into the way LE words their statements. It’s to the point where I wonder if maybe I’m looking too closely into their wording. But words are important, and I can’t help but think that LE must know that too and so they weigh what they say very carefully. Hopefully that’s the case.

 

[Charlot123]

To add to DNA. I think it was from Indiana Star in an article posted on April 23, 2019.

“Is there DNA linked to the killer?
Possibly.

Indiana State Police officials have not confirmed yet whether they have DNA samples that are directly tied to a possible suspect or suspects in the Delphi case.

However, a change in Indiana law this year might help in the case, because it now allows law-enforcement officials to collect DNA samples from anyone accused of a felony. Before the new law took effect on Jan. 1, police could only collect DNA if a person had been convicted of a crime.

There is also the possibility someday that a familial DNA search, one that looks for markers in DNA that might indicate a family member, could be employed in the search for Abby's and Libby's killer.”

So they are not sure yet - probably they have lots of known “local” DNAs from the crime scene, and one of them might be linked to the suspect.


Delphi murders update 2019: Here's what we know about unsolved killings of Abby and Libby

 

[stattlich1]

and also the elevated bank was a natural regulator. I'm not sure if it's soft and muddy on that side before ascending, but I wouldn't be surprised.

I've seen you reference the far bank of the creek, and I've seen pictures of it. How do you supposed it was scaled by two wet young girls being pursued by one or more perps?

 

[MingyMoo]

there is one thing about students... they virtually don’t part with their cellphones. This guy was able to do without, and left no digital trace. Age-wise, unusual for a kid.

I personally think we underestimate the younger generation. In many things they are more switched on than the older generation. I would argue that the older generation is careless with didgital footprints etc because the importance is a newish concept to us and are we are in the process of learning how importantant it is. Where as the younger generation were brought up with it and in many circumstances know more than we or should I say most of us do. Yes we are all experienced in life etc but there are so many things the younger generation is naturally more aware of than those older. Technology is one of them.

MingyMoo

 

[heartgoesout]

I've seen you reference the far bank of the creek, and I've seen pictures of it. How do you supposed it was scaled by two wet young girls being pursued by one or more perps?

Have you looked in other areas that they could have crossed? Check out by the barn.