Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #122

[Jax49]

IIRC 43 seconds was recorded on Libbys phone.
JMO and my memory for reference

I don't think that we never heard how long the recording lasted. I remember "stuff of nightmares" which would indicate a longer recording. Plus, we have indication that the murders happened within minutes of the recording on the bridge. moo

ETA link: New 'Face' of the Delphi Murder Suspect

This is the face of the suspect that goes with body of the video captured on Liberty German's cell phone minutes before she and Abigail Williams were murdered

 

[Spartygirl]

I do not think you dreamed that up. I think some LE did say it was "the stuff nightmares are made of" even if the Sheriff said the attack was not on the audio. You are at least basing your ideas on a statement that, if found, can be referenced as fact.

The two teenage girls aged 17 and 18 that went missing on Utah Lake have not been found yet. I see two go missing and immediately think of this case and the Evansdale, Iowa case. Then I realize that I am just being overly suspicious about things. It happens to everyone, trying to make links where there really are none.

The stuff nightmares are made up news release

Citizen Sleuths Spring Into Action in Indiana Murder Mystery as Reward Reaches $50G

 

[Spartygirl]

Is it common for ISP to not state the cause of death in these kind of cases?

I'm trying to understand why they are holding this back?
Is it to protect the families? I can understand that but would have thought they pretty much know what went on, harrowing though it is?

I think I've also read that they are holding it back to stop the cranks and nutjobs offering false confessions. But surely that's cleaned up with DNA?, which leads me on to think the DNA case they have is very thin. Was the scene too heavily contaminated during the search?

Another theory I had is the 'signature' has the markings of a known serial killer that may have killed many more before this crime.
I say 'known', by that I mean by the FBI and LE and but not the general public. They may be trying to keep a lid on it to prevent national fears and paranoia.

Weren't there 2 or 3 "Signatures" supposedly left at CS ??
I thought HLN show said that. I need to go check references.

 

[Spartygirl]

I must say, and I apologize up front, because my thoughts on this entire case are at times born out of being totally baffled.

I mean seriously, in possession of the FBI, and numerous other professional LE services, not to mention likely an entire myriad of other individuals, is

1. video of what we are told is a prime suspect, BG
2. numerous still photos from said video
3. voice recordings of what we are told is a prime suspect, BG
4. crime scene, bodies of the victims, and all associated evidence

and yet, they have not brought charges.

Am I totally wrong in thinking they know who the killer is? Probably. With the aforementioned facts, am I to conclude they have NO IDEA who killed these girls? Probably closer to the truth.

Talk me out of this websleuthers. Talk me out of the idea that the FBI, in conjunction with all other agencies, professionals, analysts, detectives, etc. who have video, still photos, voice recordings, bodies, and all related evidence from the scene, and can't find the killer, that they have no idea who it is.

UGH.. I feel your frustration. I have been following since day one.
I have been to the trails and the bridge.
I have been to fundraisers and met family members.

I tend to think LE knows who it is but cannot place him there that day and that time.

OR--- they have NO DNA and do not have a clue.

I have my own nightmares over this case.

 

[Charlot123]

I’m sure this has been stated before, but I think the change in course came from DNA evidence. Things like age, hair color and eye color “not blue” seem to be things that could be determined by advanced DNA technology. I think they got this feedback from the lab and then looked back at the old sketch (and realized their first sketch did not match). This is why I believe the change in sketches. It also possibly points to degraded dna or tips their hand in terms of dna and I think this is why they have never clearly explained why the change of sketches.

MOO

@Michigan , respectfully, but the phenotyping lab gives you percentages. They would usually say, “likely, brown”, or “blue” or “hazel or green”, but “definitely” not blue is not from their lexicon because they are looking at probabilities of certain genes expressing themselves. I wonder if one of witnesses when asked, “were his eyes blue?”, said “no, definitely not blue” and it got into the first description.

I agree that they have DNA, and it probably is good enough to rule people out but not good enough to rule them in. I personally think it is mitochondrial DNA, and this is why I think, from some hair that was lost (not with the bulb, the bulb has nuclear DNA, but the perp was, probably, merely shedding, hence, only hair shaft).

Hopefully, advances in technology might allow to extract nuclear DNA from the hair, too. I read somewhere they were working at it.

I also hope that the perp has very rare mito DNA.

ETA: I might have posted it already. One of my family members has DNA that is met probably less than in 1:14000. A full mitomatch has common ancestors dating back to 1800. So I hope BG has mitogroup that is met in 1:25000 cases.

 

[Charlot123]

UGH.. I feel your frustration. I have been following since day one.
I have been to the trails and the bridge.
I have been to fundraisers and met family members.

I tend to think LE knows who it is but cannot place him there that day and that time.

OR--- they have NO DNA and do not have a clue.

I have my own nightmares over this case.

I wonder if they could start checking alibi minute by minute. Or check the alibi of the person providing him with the alibi for that day. Or people confirming that person’s alibi. Somewhere, there should be a break.

 

[Spartygirl]

RL left his property that day to drive to the dump. Did he encounter a visitor that day? One of his son’s or grandson’s friends who were familiar with the property and knew he would be gone for a certain timeframe? I wish we knew if LE considered or even questioned any of those friends. Maybe even someone with an axe to grind but more likely just an opportunist.
Also we have no way of knowing whether the girls were murdered there or somewhere close by nor do we know if they were taken and returned since the bodies weren’t found until the previous day. i cannot wrap my head and heart around someone randomly abducting and or murdering two girls without knowledge of the terrain and the fact that the property they were found on belongs to someone with an alibi who served time for a ridiculously stupid reason. I wonder if someone meant to set up RL or took advantage of his absence that day to suit their needs.

Great Post--JMO----there are indeed people familiar with RL property and probably knew he would be gone.
Plus the fact they are in jail for other murders at this time.
JMO but I did think possibly involved, but I no longer think that, but time will tell.

 

[Spartygirl]

I just feel the timing is off. It seems that it was planned, either with these girls, or with any random victims. It appears that the perp was angry, but also, sadistic, and enjoyed the process.

So kill in 15 minutes, and take a shortcut via the cemetery, does not seem right to me. The story just feels different.

Could they be taken somewhere, and then back via the creek at a different place, perhaps downstream from Dephi? At the place where people were not searching, in a boat, tied up? Then be marched back to “that” place and killed?

At any point in time, their complacency could be assured because there were two of them “do what we say, or we shall kill your friend”.

I am going to go with your first instinct, or post... kill in 15 minutes (half hour) and take shortcut through Cemetery.
I have believed this from day one and after going to the trails and bridge and Cemetery, it felt even stronger.
JMO

 

[soylattesandsleuthing]

Weren't there 2 or 3 "Signatures" supposedly left at CS ??
I thought HLN show said that. I need to go check references.

That’s correct. In the HLN podcast, Ives said there are what he would consider to be at least two or three signatures.

 

[Spartygirl]

The sketch lacks detail because of the way it was created...pick a head, pick a nose. It was not an artist’s rendition from scratch and most witnesses probably couldn’t accurately recall a whole lot of detail anyway.

“Bryant uses a "facial identification reference sheet" that has a list of different categories, from head shapes to different eyebrows and noses. The person will describe the suspect based on those categories. "(It's) easier to do that than to describe (the suspect) using just words," Bryant said...”
Delphi murders: New sketch of killer, video from Libby's phone released

yeah...some of his sketches resemble each other LOL
JMO

 

[Charlot123]

I don't trust Tobe Leazenby. I think he's overly simplistic local cop and that causes him not to be able to see more than 3 blocks in any direction from his office. He's convinced the killer has to be local, and using the strictest definition of local. Since he can't figure it out after 3 years he allows himself to fall into traps like rationalizing it might be multiple perpetrators.

The recent local article indicated that they have conducted polygraphs. Yikes. We've gone from hopes of CeCe Moore deciphering a genealogical family tree to the reality of Tobe Leazenby dishing out polygraphs to a selection of local creeps. I can just picture Leazenby with a few polygraph results he's not fully satisfied with, and using that sample to debate toward the killer.

I hope the FBI and others step in to make sure that if there is an arrest in this case it is consensus driven and evidence driven, instead of Tobe Leazenby relying on his gut and his faith and his impatience.

So, no agencies use polygraph exams today? Everyone considers it obsolete?

Also - I doubt Delphi has staff polygraph examiners. If Leazenby got them, it means, someone higher above thought it a good idea.

As to Leazenby, you are right, he is 100% local and you can see his regular “clients” in Carrol County sheriff Facebook. Impressive bunch. But - he is street smart and seems to have rather quick reaction. He is also straight to the point. I think he has normal feeling of dadisgust towards the murderer, as any father would.

 

[somequestions]

There are some rather strong resemblances to Lizzy and Lyric in Iowa, aren't there? But that would be too too weird. I agree, the human mind wants to make connections, to make the world make sense. But sometimes there is no sense to be found.

The actual name of the lake is Utah Lake near Provo, Utah. The reason I thought it was a little strange is that the lake is not very deep. It is only about 14-15 feet at its deepest point. But the search and rescue says that is exactly what causes lots of waves when there is a good amount of wind. It also stirs up the lake sediment. So it is thought they got caught up in the waves and drowned. This drowning scenario has happened many times all over the country.

So the point is that it looks like a drowning of two teen girls who went tubing and got caught in the waves. At this point after so long they think if the girls are in the water it is almost certainly a recovery operation. Search and rescue thinks that most likely something would come to the surface so they have turned their attention to searching from the air since it gives them much greater visibility. They just turned to an air search yesterday I think so I am assuming they will find the girls soon.

It is human nature to want there to be an answer. I know this probably has nothing to do with Abigail Williams and Liberty German's case, but I thought it was a great example.

 

[St. Anthony2017]

The actual name of the lake is Utah Lake near Provo, Utah. The reason I thought it was a little strange is that the lake is not very deep. It is only about 14-15 feet at its deepest point. But the search and rescue says that is exactly what causes lots of waves when there is a good amount of wind. It also stirs up the lake sediment. So it is thought they got caught up in the waves and drowned. This drowning scenario has happened many times all over the country.

So the point is that it looks like a drowning of two teen girls who went tubing and got caught in the waves. At this point after so long they think if the girls are in the water it is almost certainly a recovery operation. Search and rescue thinks that most likely something would come to the surface so they have turned their attention to searching from the air since it gives them much greater visibility. They just turned to an air search yesterday I think so I am assuming they will find the girls soon.

It is human nature to want there to be an answer. I know this probably has nothing to do with Abigail Williams and Liberty German's case, but I thought it was a great example.

Thank you. In an article from today it says they are also considering possible foul play, kidnapping or runaway as theories since to date no bodies have been found. Time will tell if the investigation goes in a new direction.

 

[Charlot123]

I sort feel the same way except I wouldn't say I don't trust him. I believe his approach to a murder would work with 99% of the murders one would expect in his jurisdiction. However, this isn't your typical Carroll County crime. And trying to overlay your typical local crime procedure onto this case isn't going to work. By the time he realized he was over his head it was too late. Yes, I know he called in ISP and FBI, but how long did his staff muddle around with this crime scene just like they would with any other Carroll County crime? For so long I believe they thought this crime was going to be solved within a a couple of weeks using the usual techniques going after the usual suspects.

Maybe we are saying the same thing, just a different way.

You know, my analogy would be, a general surgeon working in a local hospital and performing appendectomies, gallbladder removals, suturing wounds. And then, one day, he suddenly needs to do brain surgery because there is no helicopter and the patient is bleeding. Of course the job would be that of a general surgeon, but it is not his fault. Although I know a case when a general surgeon successfully managed, but he was also trained in cardiac surgery.

 

[somequestions]

Thank you. In an article from today it says they are also considering possible foul play, kidnapping or runaway as theories since to date no bodies have been found. Time will tell if the investigation goes in a new direction.

I did not know that they were actually considering possible foul play. I only read they are turning to a recovery operation.

I have heard of lake drownings many times where they do not find a body right away, and most of the time what I read is that if the body is under water they almost always resurface at some point later on. Drownings in high wave conditions happen all the time in large bodies of water. This lake looks to be very big, and weather conditions can change quickly like they did the day these two Utah girls went missing. It is a large area to search. So it is most likely nothing.

Anyhow I know this thread is about Abigail Williams and Liberty German. No one has said the case of Abigail Williams and Liberty German is linked to the Evansdale, Iowa case and no has said it is linked to the Utah Lake possible drownings case. But since I think that Delphi and Evansdale are connected and that it could be a possible serial killer, I then try to link it with Utah Lake.

 

[gregjrichards]

A big thank you to all of you for continuing to post in Abigail and Liberty’s case thread and for not giving up hope that justice will be done. I haven’t been able to post much recently but I still think of the girl’s case every day and will never give up hope the monster will be caught and punished.

 

[Charlot123]

I am going to go with your first instinct, or post... kill in 15 minutes (half hour) and take shortcut through Cemetery.
I have believed this from day one and after going to the trails and bridge and Cemetery, it felt even stronger.
JMO

It could, or could not, have been the way it is described. I am thinking, mud. Mud if they all had to cross the river. And dry grass. The footprints would have been there. The next morning. Of the girls, one or two perps, and the escape route. With the footprints, shoe forms and sizes.

So either there were no muddy footprints (I understand how many people went through it, but still, they didn’t have to cross the river, so their footsteps would have been different), or, they were on that murder site, and then, LE knows the shoe size and shape, and much more.

 

[Alphafuzz]

The sketch lacks detail because of the way it was created...pick a head, pick a nose. It was not an artist’s rendition from scratch and most witnesses probably couldn’t accurately recall a whole lot of detail anyway.

“Bryant uses a "facial identification reference sheet" that has a list of different categories, from head shapes to different eyebrows and noses. The person will describe the suspect based on those categories. "(It's) easier to do that than to describe (the suspect) using just words," Bryant said...”
Delphi murders: New sketch of killer, video from Libby's phone released

Thank you for your response and link. Do you have thoughts then on why the initial sketch released is so detailed and the second released is not? Was it completed by a different agency?

 

[BNA]

I must say, and I apologize up front, because my thoughts on this entire case are at times born out of being totally baffled.

I mean seriously, in possession of the FBI, and numerous other professional LE services, not to mention likely an entire myriad of other individuals, is

1. video of what we are told is a prime suspect, BG
2. numerous still photos from said video
3. voice recordings of what we are told is a prime suspect, BG
4. crime scene, bodies of the victims, and all associated evidence

and yet, they have not brought charges.

Am I totally wrong in thinking they know who the killer is? Probably. With the aforementioned facts, am I to conclude they have NO IDEA who killed these girls? Probably closer to the truth.

Talk me out of this websleuthers. Talk me out of the idea that the FBI, in conjunction with all other agencies, professionals, analysts, detectives, etc. who have video, still photos, voice recordings, bodies, and all related evidence from the scene, and can't find the killer, that they have no idea who it is.

Given all that you have listed, it seems to me that they cannot not know who it is.

It seems to me that, if they do not know who it is, there has to be something in all that info they possess that could be released to the public without jeopardizing the case.....allowing for the possibility of more tips.

It seems to me that the only tips they are looking for now are tips that can definitely render any existing alibi moot.

It seems to me that, without such a tip, nobody will believe that their suspect committed this crime. And that, with this tip, those same disbelievers will say: "OK, that makes sense."

It seems to me that it is, as LE indicated, all about power. And, it seems to me that power is something the suspect already possesses...including the power of the court of public opinion. And, that is what needs to be obliterated....by that one tip.

 

[sunshineray]

It's my belief that there is more than one perp involved. The second perp could have been in a location other than where the recording took place.

From the wording of the vid I posted, there could even be more involved, DC used the word 'group'.

So, maybe there was one perp, maybe two or more. I'm of the opinion there are two or more. BG directs them down the hill, they do what they're told, they then run in to second perp, causing the ease of controlling the girls to increase exponentially.

All speculation of course, but makes sense to me.

I don't think these murders were random. I think these girls were killed for a reason. By someone who had/has something to hide, and a lot of reputation to lose.

It's an interesting notion of there being even more than two perps involved. I'm curious as to what kinda of senario do you think would have caused Libby to lose her shoe, if there were multiple people involved in getting them from point A, the bridge, to point B, the crime scene across the creek? It's those two bits of information that we know of that lend credence to less help, fewer or just one killer. IMO