Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #122

[TheVisual]

Someone had posted this article about eye color changing in different mental states. I think it is possible that BG eyes were darker than they typically are seen.

3 Clues to Recognize Bipolar Disorder Mania in the Eyes

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

 

[JnRyan]

The video link is at the bottom of this page. It’s dated Feb 14th, edited Feb 15th so it’s hard to tell when it was added. The crime scene investigation lasted several days iirc.
MAP: Where the two bodies were found near Delphi

Thanks. It is a good refresher. That view of the area really gives you a better view than trying to look at Google Maps. I wish you could pause it. There was one house just on the other side of the creek from the crime scene. And to the best of our knowledge no one heard any screams or gun shots. Of course, during the time of the murders the residents were probably at work. And even if they were home the doors and windows would be shut with the HVAC going and probably a TV on.

 

[MistyWaters]

Thanks. It is a good refresher. That view of the area really gives you a better view than trying to look at Google Maps. I wish you could pause it. There was one house just on the other side of the creek from the crime scene. And to the best of our knowledge no one heard any screams or gun shots. Of course, during the time of the murders the residents were probably at work. And even if they were home the doors and windows would be shut with the HVAC going and probably a TV on.

You’re welcome. The owners of the house closest to the end of the bridge have been mentioned here previously as absent snowbirds at the time although I don’t recall the source so I don’t know it to be true. What surprised me was how close the road, which becomes their private driveway, is to that end of the bridge.

 

[drama_farmer]

This video was shot 2/14/17. It might be the same aerial helicopter view we're familiar with, but it is on Youtube, from station WRTV (RTV6). You can pause it, change the playback speed, go frame by frame, etc.

Edit: to go frame by frame on a Youtube video, use the arrow keys on your keyboard (the , and . keys)

 

[Jax49]

Thanks. It is a good refresher. That view of the area really gives you a better view than trying to look at Google Maps. I wish you could pause it. There was one house just on the other side of the creek from the crime scene. And to the best of our knowledge no one heard any screams or gun shots. Of course, during the time of the murders the residents were probably at work. And even if they were home the doors and windows would be shut with the HVAC going and probably a TV on.

This version is from 2/14/17 and it can be paused, etc.

 

[JnRyan]

That is interesting to me because when the investigators are talking about signatures they are talking about a fantasy based killer who has certain compulsions. It would be interesting to see what the signatures are here.

This would seem to point away from a revenge type killing of someone who had an axe to grind with the girls or their families, IMO.

Article: Ritual and Signature in Serial Sexual Homicide

A very interesting study. I also noted in para 7, "In addition, these authors found that serial sexual offenders who act impulsively with little planning often do not engage in ritualistic (or signature) behavior because of the undifferentiated nature of their fantasy lives. In contrast, offenders who plan their crimes and who have detailed and elaborate fantasy lives engage in distinct ritualistic or signature acts." So it is likely the killer might have done some planning. (I assume that doesn't necessarily mean he targeted the Abigail and Liberty specifically, but rather the killer would have killed any other young girl or girls that happened into his sights that day.)

 

[JnRyan]

This video was shot 2/14/17. It might be the same aerial helicopter view we're familiar with, but it is on Youtube, from station WRTV (RTV6). You can pause it, change the playback speed, go frame by frame, etc.

Edit: to go frame by frame on a Youtube video, use the arrow keys on your keyboard (the , and . keys)

Thanks. I was interested in the treeline running west from the cemetery. It is difficult to determine what the terrain is like, but it does appear that someone could have stayed just inside that treeline for a good ways before getting to their vehicle if it was parked at the Mears lot or the abandoned CPS building.

 

[JnRyan]

Looking at this video again, I'm revisiting the creek crossing. That is, were the girls directed across the creek or did they try to make a run for it and crossed the creek in a effort to get away. (What I don't know is how familiar they were with that area.) I'm now wondering that if they tried to run from the killer why wouldn't they have tried to get to a road and run to a house? Of course, with panic and fear involved it is difficult to try to apply reason to someone's actions. But now I'm leaning more toward the girls being directed across the creek by the killer.

 

[St. Anthony2017]

If we put the percentage of people with red hair at 1 %, then, yes, if 17% of the population has blue eyes, the the odds of someone having both are 0.17 %. But built into those assumptions is that the incidence of blue eyes in red-haired people is the same as in the general population (17%). If this scenario is true, then someone's having red hair makes it no less likely that they have blue eyes than if they had any other color hair.

What if someone colors their Brown hair red? Could that be seen in DNA tests of hair found at the scene?

 

[stattlich1]

DBM

 

[St. Anthony2017]

If the murder case of Abigail Williams and Liberty German is ever going to get solved, it is probably going to take a different approach. After over 3 years and almost 50,000 tips, how would you solve the Delphi murders?

I would try to do the same thing as Liberty German did. I would focus first on all the tips that describe seeing the bridge guy on or before February 13, 2017. If bridge guy did change his appearance it would probably be after the crime. Then hope that among all those tips the right one is in there somewhere.

I would check everyone who was normally in the area for a few years and then left the area without a new legitimate job to go to.

 

[Davemac1]

Can I ask. When they say 'popular with hunters.' Do they mean hunters are walking around the trails with families and children at the same time?
What are they hunting?
Would it be unusual to see people walking around with guns,Knives,kill kits in tandem with families/ youngsters enjoying the habitat?

I suppose this is where the US differs from the UK. We have country parks in idyllic settings. You may see the odd fisherman in amongst the families enjoying the park. But hunters? Definitely not. Someone walking about with a knife or a gun would send people into a blind panic!

Could the fact that hunting is a perfectly legitimate leisure activity in the states benefit the likes of people like BG as not many people raise suspicions when they see someone in possession of a weapon creeping around the area looking for things to kill?

 

[California Sunset]

I believe you are describing "guilt by association", or "accessory to a crime"?

Guilt by Association - Definition, Examples, Cases, Processes

The idea of guilt by association, or the “association fallacy,” is that a person is guilty of a crime for simply associating with the person who committed it. This is because people assume the friend of the accused approves of the behavior, and so he likely engaged in it as well.

The way an individual normally becomes an accessory to a crime is by taking steps to hide evidence of the crime, or helping the perpetrator in carrying out the crime. Whether the friend had “good” intentions in helping his friend, or whether he claims not to have known what his friend was truly doing, neither of these explanations tends to function as a solid legal defense in the field of criminal law.

In the US, the legal charge would be "accessory to a crime", if evidenced. (While some may assume that an individual is "guilty by association", this is not always the case- and is not an actual chargeable offense).

Much more at link; hope this is what you were looking for!

Somewhere in the last several years, I think it was four young men broke into a house, and the homeowner shot and killed one (unless it was a cop), but the other young men were charged with murder because their accomplice was killed. I could be wrong, but I thought that case was in Texas.
Thank you so much, I appreciate your input. I was looking for this:

AFAIK every state has a version of a felony murder statute. That means if you are engaged in the commission of a felony and someone dies, everyone involved can be charged with murder. So during a robbery gone bad that results in a death, the getaway car driver can also be charged with murder since he was involved in the felony that lead to the murder. It's not the same as an accessory or accomplice as those people are usually involved after-the-fact and not in the actual felony/murder.

 

[Ozoner]

Can I ask. When they say 'popular with hunters.' Do they mean hunters are walking around the trails with families and children at the same time?
What are they hunting?
Would it be unusual to see people walking around with guns,Knives,kill kits in tandem with families/ youngsters enjoying the habitat?

I suppose this is where the US differs from the UK. We have country parks in idyllic settings. You may see the odd fisherman in amongst the families enjoying the park. But hunters? Definitely not. Someone walking about with a knife or a gun would send people into a blind panic!

Could the fact that hunting is a perfectly legitimate leisure activity in the states benefit the likes of people like BG as not many people raise suspicions when they see someone in possession of a weapon creeping around the area looking for things to kill?

In the US, many states have open carry laws. People walk into stores with semi-automatic weapons strapped over their shoulders, and it's perfectly legal.

 

[stattlich1]

Can I ask. When they say 'popular with hunters.' Do they mean hunters are walking around the trails with families and children at the same time?
What are they hunting?
Would it be unusual to see people walking around with guns,Knives,kill kits in tandem with families/ youngsters enjoying the habitat?

Oh my, I will simply say this. There are reports of deer stands in the area of the trail. So deer, maybe squirrel, possibly turkey or rabbit, would be candidates for hunters.

I imagine I could be wrong, but a bit of one's bias appears to ooze, and I'll refrain, however, 'kill kits', and 'creeping around the area looking for things to kill' are really, REALLY, funny statements from the vantage point of this born and raised United States country boy

A woman with a rifle, dressed in fluorescent orange, seen in the woods during buck or doe season wouldn't likely raise terrible suspicion in this particular area of Indiana.

Two kids roaming around on private property in the woods during buck or doe season, dressed in camo, you know, just playing around, would be an indication of poor judgement on their part, but the likelihood of this scenario is minimal as most in rural America have better common sense

I'd like to add, I posted back in February, and still remain convinced, that the crime scene was contaminated by literally dozens, some reports state maybe a hundred or more, searchers in the area, not to mention the entire area appears to have not been secure the night of the murders and in to the following morning.

So, dna from a straw, or a cup, or a hair, or a cigarette butt, or some other discarded item, could be anyone's. Heckfire, for all I know, the girls bodies themselves could have been visited by others, or the killer returned to them, unbeknownst to anyone.

I do suspect that something striking was done to the bodies. Something that has been tightly kept by LE, known only to the killer(s).

 

[Betty P]

Can I ask. When they say 'popular with hunters.' Do they mean hunters are walking around the trails with families and children at the same time?
What are they hunting?
Would it be unusual to see people walking around with guns,Knives,kill kits in tandem with families/ youngsters enjoying the habitat?

I suppose this is where the US differs from the UK. We have country parks in idyllic settings. You may see the odd fisherman in amongst the families enjoying the park. But hunters? Definitely not. Someone walking about with a knife or a gun would send people into a blind panic!

Could the fact that hunting is a perfectly legitimate leisure activity in the states benefit the likes of people like BG as not many people raise suspicions when they see someone in possession of a weapon creeping around the area looking for things to kill?

JMO, yes its a problem. There have been cases where gun crimes were committed, but witnesses weren't aware as they were accustomed to hearing gunfire in the area from hunters, neighbors, etc. As a result, there's a delay in discovery of the victim, calls to LE and plenty of time for the killer to leave the crime scene undetected.

JMO, its also risky for people to be allowed to carry weapons openly in public, around large groups of people, inside businesses, churches, on college campuses, etc. How do you know the person parading around Walmart with a loaded gun isn't unlicensed, recently out of jail, mentally ill, drunk or on drugs? Allowing hunting in an area full of hiking trails is extremely irresponsible and unsafe.

In our old neighborhood, the city had a public shooting range across the road from a large complex of soccer and baseball fields. It was so unnerving to watch the little ones playing soccer while people were shooting guns across the street. Insane. Those places are open to the public, just drive up, get out your gun and start shooting. Anyone could do that.

 

[CCJD]

Can I ask. When they say 'popular with hunters.' Do they mean hunters are walking around the trails with families and children at the same time?
What are they hunting?

This trail map, including Monon High Bridge Trail, says no motorized vehicles or hunting allowed (bottom right of map).
https://www.carrollcountyindiana.com/files_uploaded/DelphiTrailsMap_updtd2011.pdf

 

[tresir2012]

This trail map, including Monon High Bridge Trail, says no motorized vehicles or hunting allowed (bottom right of map).
https://www.carrollcountyindiana.com/files_uploaded/DelphiTrailsMap_updtd2011.pdf

That's correct that no hunting is allowed on the trails. But the land either side of the MHB, including where the girls were found is private so hunting would be allowed on there. Hence the deer stand that was on Mears land to the west of the crime scene.

 

[TheVisual]

That's correct that no hunting is allowed on the trails. But the land either side of the MHB, including where the girls were found is private so hunting would be allowed on there. Hence the deer stand that was on Mears land to the west of the crime scene.

And that would only be during a hunting season and allowed by the land owner.

 

[rosesfromangels]

That's correct that no hunting is allowed on the trails. But the land either side of the MHB, including where the girls were found is private so hunting would be allowed on there. Hence the deer stand that was on Mears land to the west of the crime scene.

Deer stand! First I’ve heard of this. A perfect place to hunker down and scout for Victims via binoculars!

Has LE looked at the deer stand for DNA traces I wonder?!?

amateur opinion and speculation