Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #123

[Yemelyan]

Just to clarify, @Yemelyan, my statement (as I'm recalling from last evening) was not that *no one* ever reports (acquaintance rape), but rather, that ***many*** never report...

All JMOO that (again) ***many*** (note: not "all", of course) victims are filled with shame, etc., and would rather just say...nothing -- and especially so, in a small town setting (where everyone knows everyone). Later today am looking forward to reading the article that you linked yesterday; thanks for including that citation!

Okay, I certainly take your point that **some** do not report out of a feeling of shame but I would also say that many ARE reporting and our legal system is letting these victims down, as well as any future victims of these monsters, who are turning out to be FAR more prevalent than was previously known. Please read the article, think about those young girls on the bridge and their clothes in the water and then I'd love to hear your thoughts in this thread.

 

[St. Anthony2017]

If he had a camera, he filmed his killings. somewhere there is a digital record .

I believe he was taunting police . This would explain the bizarre presser.

mOO

There was speculation that it could be in the dark web.

 

[Yemelyan]

This, and your post upthread on the challenges with DNA testing are exceptional. Thank you for putting this problem in to perspective A national overhaul for policy and procedure for DNA collection and reporting is sorely needed.

Amateur opinion and speculation

Thank you! I would love to see justice in this case.

 

[JnRyan]

It's a fairly well-known fact (IMO) that many victims of "acquaintance rape" never report the crime, thus, leaving a huge set of unsolved crimes -- and an even huger set/pool of unnamed/unidentified rapists -- to whom *many* other crimes of opportunity could be linked.

It's my belief that victims of acquaintance rape are so full of shame (and some, no doubt, are full of fear, should they disclose their rapist's identity) that those rapists take a "break", as it were, then...shamelessly go on to commit *another* "crime of opportunity".

Even speedier than testing all of those hundreds of thousands of unopened rape kits across the country would be having some process whereby acquaintance rape victims could make a report without fear of retaliation or public shame (shaming of *them*, the victims -- strange as it sounds, I have heard of it happening). The present system is broken; *how* can it be fixed, and in the most expeditious, judicious manner? (Hoping those two adjectives don't sound like a "mis-match": "expeditious" and "judicious"...)

Unreported rape. Some studies bear that out. Per these studies the percentage of rape victims reporting the crime has improved, but still less than half are reported.
Reporting of Sexual Violence Incidents
Has Rape Reporting Increased Over Time?

Add to that the fact that there are thousands of unprocessed rape kits across the country and we have many offenders who are either never caught or go on to commit more rapes before finally being arrested.

 

[carbuff]

I've always thought that a serial rapist who escalated was one of the more likely scenarios for this crime Unfortunately.

 

[JnRyan]

I've always thought that a serial rapist who escalated was one of the more likely scenarios for this crime Unfortunately.

Or someone that committed other abusive behavior toward women or girls. I'm on the fence as to whether this was his first murder, but I strongly believe he has committed other crimes against women prior to this set of murders.

 

[minazoe]

why are you on the fence? what about this case makes you think this guys is a beginner?

he pulled off a double murder in broad daylight in an open area.

I dunno..I think he's a switch hitter and did some other murders that don't look like this one
enough to draw a line.

or is it because you think he's local and there are no unsolved murders of women or children in Delphi?

mOO

 

[carbuff]

I think the only reason he succeeded is blind luck.

 

[Kittybunny]

I've had a long post that I've been meaning to write regarding the DNA in this case. I wanted to address some of the thoughts often posted here such as, because they haven't announced a hit in CODIS or a familial genealogy hit yet, LE doesn't have DNA to work with. Or that this must mean BG has never offended before (and the host of crazy theories that surround this thought).

First of all, I have not made a secret of my opinion that this was a sexually-oriented crime and so everything I write in this post will have that motive as the background. (This not to say that all sexually oriented offenses will yield a DNA sample, but I believe this one did.) I think that the statistics surrounding abductions/murders of females in this age group and under these circumstances bear this out but if you are of the opinion that they were killed because they knew a secret or because they saw someone cooking meth, then you may not want to read on.

I think the key to understanding the DNA in this case can be found in the following article: An Epidemic of Disbelief

This article is about serial rape and how and why sexual offenders so often get away with it.

I'll paraphrase some points that relate to the Delphi Murders, in my opinion. First of all, there is an epidemic of untested rape kits in the US. This article cites a number of perhaps 200,000 untested kits. Another source says that there are about 4,989 untested kits in Indiana alone. I would be willing to bet that the DNA match to the Delphi case is in one or more of those kits and here's why.

Serial rapists (who sometimes graduate to murder) are more common than previously believed. In 49 out of 50 rape cases the alleged assailant is never prosecuted (for various reasons). According to the article, this means that out of all the violent crimes, rape is the easiest to get away with.

In the article, you can read about how some of these offenders "prepare" for their crimes...by shaving their bodies, bringing condoms, or planning to wash the victims with water. These criminals can be very wise to DNA and prepare accordingly.

In Cleveland, a serial rapist graduated to serial murder (Anthony Sowell). After LE discovered his murders and linked them to the serial rapes, they discovered that none of his previous attacks where women survived had ever been investigated nor the rape kitse tested. Perhaps BG, too, has a trail of untested and unlinked victims that contain evidence as to his identity.

Probably most enlightening thing in the linked article is the info that HOW rapists offend and WHO they select as victims is very different than what our conventional wisdom tells us. Everyone assumes, and I've seen it on this forum many times, that rapists/murderers have a "type" of victim as well as a style or MO preference. Data tells us this is not true.

If you take away nothing else I write here, it's that a predator's reality often falls short of his fantasy. They may hunt for their "type" but who they had in mind and who they ultimately selected may not match at all. In the hunt, only one criteria mattered: she was available. One LE official is quoted in the article as saying "it's no wonder we didn't catch that many rapists because there was no pattern."

Finally, IMO the crime that may ultimately link to BG and Delphi may not be a stranger type abduction/rape. It might be an acquaintance rape, which are notoriously under-investigated. Over 80% of rapes are believed to be acquaintance rapes...which is not to say that Abby and Libby knew their attacker. Historically, investigators thought that the type of person who assaults an acquaintance is very different than one who abducts/rapes a stranger in an alley. New data from the backlog of rape kits tells us that there is not such a gap at all. Testing the acquaintance rape kits turned up links to serial offenses on strangers a high percentage of the time.

To sum up, just like genealogical linkage is imperfect because not everybody opts in, CODIS is imperfect because of all of this missing data from sexual offenses. Hopefully in time that DNA link will turn up. I choose to believe it will. Perhaps a good use of our time would be advocating our local governments for testing the backlog of rape kits in every state.

Wow. What a well-reasoned, thoughtful, well-researched post. I agree with you on this being a sexually motivated crime and under reported rapes and untested rape kits as a strong possible reason why this hasn't been solved yet. It's so heartbreaking thinking of all the victims still awaiting justice.

 

[somequestions]

I think the only reason he succeeded is blind luck.

If there is some sort of meaning to the dates in the Abigail Williams and Liberty German case(2/13/17) and the Elizabeth Collins and Lyric Cook case(7/13/12), it might not have been just luck. This is a rather tv level approach to looking at the crimes since I think most criminals are opportunistic in nature and do not go so far as to pick particular dates. And there is no proof that the two crimes are connected anyway.

Still, I think this criminal has a level of experience that has taught him how police look at and investigate a crime. So he might not have been relying on luck. It is interesting how in both cases investigators seem sure that the killer just has to be a local person they cannot find. They are open to the possibilities, but a local seems to be the focus of the investigation. Only time will tell if they end up being correct before the discussion of the case starts to go quiet.

The light bulbs fade out eventually.

 

[TheVisual]

If there is some sort of meaning to the dates in the Abigail Williams and Liberty German case(2/13/17) and the Elizabeth Collins and Lyric Cook case(7/13/12), it might not have been just luck. This is a rather tv level approach to looking at the crimes since I think most criminals are opportunistic in nature and do not go so far as to pick particular dates. And there is no proof that the two crimes are connected anyway.

Still, I think this criminal has a level of experience that has taught him how police look at and investigate a crime. So he might not have been relying on luck. It is interesting how in both cases investigators seem sure that the killer just has to be a local person they cannot find. They are open to the possibilities, but a local seems to be the focus of the investigation. Only time will tell if they end up being correct before the discussion of the case starts to go quiet.

The light bulbs fade out eventually.

Does Delphi still have orange porch lights on?

 

[Deleted member 102539]

It is interesting how in both cases investigators seem sure that the killer just has to be a local person they cannot find.

Maybe, that is something, which belongs to the MO of the killer: stalking victims via SM, out of the group then choosing victims for murder, visiting the special future crime scene and surroundings with a video camera (pretending to be a harmless nature/RR enthusiast), checking on the time for driving/flying/possibility for car renting/place for parking, planning entrance/exit, checking on the given surveillance systems, coordinating business events/meetings (which would be the alibi around the time of killings), last but not least planning his head-to-foot-disguise ... and so on.
If the killer kills according to a schedule, he may have a certain date (like day before Valentine or a date including the same numbers) and a certain location and certain victim/s. Masterly and well planned in advance. He is able to move precisely and fast within the location like a real local, being it in Indiana or Iowa or Texas or where ever, maybe even in Canada (for example only). So his chances of being not caught by LE/FBI for years were very promising all the time and again and again a welcome reason for him, to laugh secretly at desperate LE in different states and to be proud of the successful deception. All in all a very satisfying task for his brain, which seems unchallenged otherwise. - Speculation and MOO, as always.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I think the only reason he succeeded is blind luck.

Also. But not only luck. MOO

 

[Charlot123]

Because former prosecutor Ives said he would return from retirement to prosecute either this case or the Flora one, when he was re-sworn I think we all got our hopes up. But in MOO he came back on as deputy only briefly to assist with workload issues in the department that were unrelated to either case. The Carroll County Prosecutor's office was looking to hire a permanent third prosecutor (not Ives, they had someone else in mind) and were seeking funding for it. There are news articles out there that detail this.

We all want movement on this case so as usual we read too much into Ives' actions IMO.

Perhaps. Here is how it looked from my angle of view. I was not even following Delphi case in February-March of 2019. Suddenly, on certain social media that was totally unrelated either to Delphi or “true crime”. I saw a post of the type, “Is it possible that Indiana LE is considering collaborating with the Parabon in the case of Delphi murders?”

The post was total hearsay, only it was made by people respected in certain circles.

So I immediately jumped to Websleuth and around that time, or shortly thereafter, there were posts about R. Ives returning.

All of it together, from genetic sources, talks about DNA, and from true crime, Ives returning, appeared like the beginning of some serious turns in the Delphi case.

And then came the April conference of 2019 that was so unusual. A year later, from afar, I can remember the striking nervousness of DC and the expression on the face of Libby’s mom.

I am far from blaming LE for any mistakes. Sometimes I doubt they made mistakes, and they surely made a lot of hard work.

What stalled the case, I shall probably never know. Such an enigma, this case. I am repeating myself, but i have to say it - to an outsider, in the beginning of 2019, the case appeared anything but cold.

 

[sunshineray]

I still have hope it will be concluded with arrests. I have to have faith that LE knows what is needed to bring the guilty to arrest and more importantly, prosecution and conviction. This includes those covering up for the killer(s), the ones staying silent, taking chances with other's lives. There will be justice. AJMO

 

[somequestions]

I still have hope it will be concluded with arrests. I have to have faith that LE knows what is needed to bring the guilty to arrest and more importantly, prosecution and conviction. This includes those covering up for the killer(s), the ones staying silent, taking chances with other's lives. There will be justice. AJMO

I think LE is still looking for the killer of Abigail Williams and Liberty German after over 3 years. In order to do anything else you first have to find the person or have an idea of who the person is.

In this case, the two sketch descriptions are a good indication that LE does not have an idea of who this person is. The two sketches are so varied in relation to each other. At this point it is definitely a cold case with the exception of Liberty German's video/audio recording, which I think has the best chance of someone identifying a suspect.

 

[MistyWaters]

Abby and Libby Memorial Park project underway

It’s refreshing to see the memorial park is taking shape and their plans are becoming a reality. The family and friends of Libby and Abby would go crazy if they spent all their time focused on their loss and the possibilities of who, why or what was involved in murders of the two girls.

So to invest their time and energy in building this park to honour the memories of the girls for people to enjoy and share happy experiences while moving forward beyond tragedy, not allowing it to defeat them, is truly an inspiration IMO.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I, like most of us, have spent a lot of time thinking about this case. But when I sit and think what do I actually know about it all, what are the facts, about all I get is:

1) Libby and Abby were murdered on February 13 2017.
2) They were found on Feb 14 2017.
3) Libby videoed a guy walking across the railroad bridge toward them that LE has identified as the suspect.
4) Libby’s video also captured audio of the suspect.
5) We know approximately where their bodies were found.

That’s it! I know pretty much nothing! If there’s something else we absolutely know, facts only, please add it to the list.

 

[minazoe]

it just takes one person to say, hey I know that guy!... just one. how can we help find this killer?

one person, that's all we need.

mOO

 

[rosesfromangels]

it just takes one person to say, hey I know that guy!... just one. how can we help find this killer?

one person, that's all we need.

mOO

I think @Yemelyan has the best approach to solving this crime. As of 2017, Indiana had over 5000 untested rape kits. Would the DNA in any of those rape kits match what was found at the Abby/Libby crime scene......?
If so, we would have a live victim who could get us closer to the Perp.
I believe this is the best approach. Thank you again to Yemelyan for the game-changing info. I believe you are spot on.

New Indiana law allows survivors to track rape kits

Amateur opinion and speculation