Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #123

[Wells]

Out of pure curiosity, I wonder what would happen if you asked ten qualified artists, unfamiliar with the case, to draw their interpretation of BG based on the video stills alone. I wonder if they would draw someone younger or older, with hair or with a hat, thin nose or bulbous nose, etc. More to the point I wonder if there would be a consensus on anything.

 

[Charlot123]

I'd guess it all depends on what was "odd."

If it was an oddity like the Amy Mihaljevic case where her body was found with a very distinctive, possibly homemade curtain, then yes....that's the type of info someone out there may recognize and put together with info on someone they personally know.

If it was "odd" as in, the perpetrator defecated at the scene, then.....I'm not sure there's anybody who would be able to say "that sounds just like my friend X!"

If it was "odd" because of what the offender removed from the scene, which I think could be a possibility, then I think it's risky for LE to say what it was. Yes, someone who knows him might recognize it but BG might get rid of it too. I think this info would have more power, not for the public to know it, but to be used against a suspect in interrogation. "If we search your house right now are we going to find clothes that belonged to Abby or Libby?" Just MOO.

I don’t think he said, odd.

I think he said, “physically, strange”.

And it is different.

“Physically strange” might be either absence or presence of something usually found at the crime scenes, too cluttered or too clean, maybe?

I am trying to imagine, what would look physically strange to a prosecutor that had seen his share of crimes? Either something “unnatural”, “pretending to be what it was not”, or?

I haven’t seen crime scenes in my life. But deaths, I have. And mostly, death is not a clean process.

I wonder if “dirty” is what was amiss at the crime scene. Whatever it means. JMO.

 

[Charlot123]

Has anyone sent in tips based on the Facebook posts, Websleuths, Reddit, Instagram posts,etc. where you don’t know the person except through their mention in this case and you keep going back to see what they have posted? What likelihood is it that BG posts online in your opinion? Do you think he just reads all our posts or has he participated in discussions or made comments?

I have a few POI I check on a regular basis and have sent in tips from their posts which I found suspicious. Even though I don’t know them personally I think a person can slip up when he posts comments,photos, etc. that he doesn’t realize might incriminate him. What do you think?

JMO - I think he avoided being caught because he compartmentalizes, and in contrast to what people have posted, has not changed, be it behavior or looks. He understands that as long as there is no one to connect him to the bridge that day, his saving grace would be lack of change. So he doesn’t pull photos, doesn’t close FB, doesn’t do anything that would be suspicious. As to posts - I think he may, but not here. In a more cluttered media, but only if he is a local and has to respond to the horrible event in the community. So he posts, if his friends do, but not much.

I honestly think he is much smarter than the people hunting him. And I also wonder what allows him to compartmentalize. Either he is a seasoned SK, or maybe, he is not, but in his mind, the motive justifies the act. And I am torn between these two options. Because if he is not a SK, there are very few motives that in the eyes of a normal, law-abiding citizen, would justify the murder of two teenage girls.

If he is not a SK, exploration of the motive might provide a clue to his person. He thinks he is saving someone from a horrible predicament by the murders. He doesn’t mind what might happen to him.

If he is a SK, he might be a traveler that does not live here. I came across this article and thought, here is one more reason to travel to Delphi and be unnoticed.

Archaeologists uncovering Delphi's history - WISH-TV | Indianapolis News | Indiana Weather | Indiana Traffic

These digs always invited volunteers. Year after year.

If he is a local SK, he should travel somewhere to hunt. Some expositions? Fairs? I know a couple of vendors, they are gone every week, but they usually travel to known places (in their case, one of the coasts). Is there a possibility to see if there is a pattern of murders, and then trace whoever local frequently travels to sell cattle, crops, buy tractors or something like it?

 

[margarita25]

JMO - I think he avoided being caught because he compartmentalizes, and in contrast to what people have posted, has not changed, be it behavior or looks. He understands that as long as there is no one to connect him to the bridge that day, his saving grace would be lack of change. So he doesn’t pull photos, doesn’t close FB, doesn’t do anything that would be suspicious. As to posts - I think he may, but not here. In a more cluttered media, but only if he is a local and has to respond to the horrible event in the community. So he posts, if his friends do, but not much.

I honestly think he is much smarter than the people hunting him. And I also wonder what allows him to compartmentalize. Either he is a seasoned SK, or maybe, he is not, but in his mind, the motive justifies the act. And I am torn between these two options. Because if he is not a SK, there are very few motives that in the eyes of a normal, law-abiding citizen, would justify the murder of two teenage girls.

If he is not a SK, exploration of the motive might provide a clue to his person. He thinks he is saving someone from a horrible predicament by the murders. He doesn’t mind what might happen to him.

If he is a SK, he might be a traveler that does not live here. I came across this article and thought, here is one more reason to travel to Delphi and be unnoticed.

Archaeologists uncovering Delphi's history - WISH-TV | Indianapolis News | Indiana Weather | Indiana Traffic

These digs always invited volunteers. Year after year.

If he is a local SK, he should travel somewhere to hunt. Some expositions? Fairs? I know a couple of vendors, they are gone every week, but they usually travel to known places (in their case, one of the coasts). Is there a possibility to see if there is a pattern of murders, and then trace whoever local frequently travels to sell cattle, crops, buy tractors or something like it?

I just read this really good article in another thread which talks about what you’re talking about / must read /Link courtesy of @Laughing:
Woman Left for Dead: What Happened in Miami Airport Hotel Mystery?

 

[Charlot123]

I just read this really good article in another thread which talks about what you’re talking about / must read /Link courtesy of @Laughing:
Woman Left for Dead: What Happened in Miami Airport Hotel Mystery?

Interesting

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Out of pure curiosity, I wonder what would happen if you asked ten qualified artists, unfamiliar with the case, to draw their interpretation of BG based on the video stills alone. I wonder if they would draw someone younger or older, with hair or with a hat, thin nose or bulbous nose, etc. More to the point I wonder if there would be a consensus on anything.

10 different sketches would arise and nobody would know, whether one of them would resemble the BG, because of the blurry video still. The artists don't have better eyes than the rest of people, I think.

 

[sunshineray]

If you look up the CrimeCon panel discussion from Nashville in 2018, they discussed sketches. The main thing to come out of the discussion is that there were many sketches. Libby's grandfather was a potential sketch as well as the lead investigator as well as countless others. Anyone who was out on the trails that day became a suspect to the average amateur online detective because if he looked remotely like the man on the bridge from Liberty German's phone video, then it could possibly be the right person.

On the panel, they remark how they had to go through and eliminate people to sketch because of how people could not correlate the difference between being out on the trail after approximately 3 pm that day with being the bridge guy. So of course people like Libby's grandfather were out there because he was helping search for his granddaughter. People have even turned in people on youtube as possibly being the bridge guy.

The two sketches released could very well just be people law enforcement has not been able to eliminate. And I think that scares people because of what it means.

It means that not only may law enforcement not know who killed Abigail Williams and Liberty German, they may also not know what he looks like. I think that scares people because how can you send in a tip about someone and their description if you do not know who you are looking for?

Then the only way the case may get solved is either through some type of forensic evidence or someone being able to distinguish the grainy video from Liberty German's phone. So I think people want to believe that the sketch or sketches are correct. But as time passes, it becomes harder to believe this case will be solved because of them.

It's the whole killer can be a combination of the two sketches talk from ISP's top officer that I find very difficult and misleading. One man can't be clean shaven and have a goatee at the same time.

If ISP Carter wants to keep both sketches active because LE doesn't know which witnesses actually saw the killer because Libby's video is too bad to confirm a sketch, just say so. If LE thinks two maybe involved, shouldn't the superintendent of the Indiana State Police just come out and say so publicly? Either way absolute clarification is long overdue. AJMO

 

[sunshineray]

I used to think, contrary to many folks here, that LE did NOT have a specific person in mind, and was NOT appealing for information about a specific person in order to help build their case and make that arrest.

However, there was a quote from Leazenby, iirc, in the recent article via Kelsie, which really made me wonder. Unfortunately, it was just one quote with no further context:

“Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby stressed that acting on incomplete evidence might weaken the prosecution’s case, potentially spoiling the one chance to imprison the killer.

“If a prosecutor doesn’t get it right the first time, that’s our only chance,” the sheriff said. “We want justice for Abby and Libby. But we don’t want to do it at the expense of potentially losing the criminal case in our courtroom.””

Source:


Maybe this is just a general statement, but it did make me wonder if they DO have a suspect in mind.

You know margarita, when I let myself hope I think of that also, sure sounded like there's a certain someone a case is being made against. I even go as far as to think it's possible that whole April 2019 press conference was just to let the killer know that they were onto him, watching and keeping tabs on everything he does, so he hurts no one else. We know you like to keep tabs on us too. Here's an accurate sketch of you and here's a bit more of your voice. We also know you had a car and where it was parked.

I don't know though, that's a lot of wishful thinking.

 

[California Sunset]

Every time I read things about BG being above average/smart, etc...actually any criminal that is labeled smart...I feel a little irritated. I don’t think it takes “above average intellect” to commit crimes. Any idiot can obsess over and practice something and even prevent their own capture. It doesn’t take a genius, it just takes someone so insecure that they need to take something from another.

When these statements are made by people it may be because they are quoting 'expert opinions', or accepted traits. Psychology, for example, might apply sets of characteristics to groups of people, so do other professions. Perhaps there is usually an exception to the rule.

 

[California Sunset]

It's the whole killer can be a combination of the two sketches talk from ISP's top officer that I find very difficult and misleading. One man can't be clean shaven and have a goatee at the same time.

If ISP Carter wants to keep both sketches active because LE doesn't know which witnesses actually saw the killer because Libby's video is too bad to confirm a sketch, just say so. If LE thinks two maybe involved, shouldn't the superintendent of the Indiana State Police just come out and say so publicly? Either way absolute clarification is long overdue. AJMO

BBM. Why not? There is such a thing as make-up (stage style) or masks. Masks have been discussed in the threads here in great detail.
What you just said rather hit me hard. (Thank you!) Maybe that was the situation here. Could BG have been wearing some disguise that he ripped off out of sight and left the scene looking different in appearance? He couldn't change his general description too much, but perhaps he changed details. His face, to me, doesn't look real. Maybe his real face (with goatee?) was hidden under tape or plastic or something. Maybe that's what got the girls' attention, saying he looked (was it) creepy?
But to be wearing a disguise already means intent. Premeditation.

 

[Ozoner]

You know margarita, when I let myself hope I think of that also, sure sounded like there's a certain someone a case is being made against. I even go as far as to think it's possible that whole April 2019 press conference was just to let the killer know that they were onto him, watching and keeping tabs on everything he does, so he hurts no one else. We know you like to keep tabs on us too. Here's an accurate sketch of you and here's a bit more of your voice. We also know you had a car and where it was parked.

I don't know though, that's a lot of wishful thinking.

Wishful thinking and naïveté. I have to think that that opinion is coming from people who haven't been following cases like this for very long. If LE had a prime suspect—to use older but more useful terminology—they wouldn't be holding press conferences and asking the public for tips. There would be virtual radio silence from LE. They would be watching that suspect and quietly building a case—eliminating other suspects, interviewing the prime suspect's acquaintances, etc.

 

[California Sunset]

I just read this really good article in another thread which talks about what you’re talking about / must read /Link courtesy of @Laughing:
Woman Left for Dead: What Happened in Miami Airport Hotel Mystery?

Amazing and encouraging. Perseverance. This may be more relevant here than one would consider.

 

[sunshineray]

Wishful thinking and naïveté. I have to think that that opinion is coming from people who haven't been following cases like this for very long. If LE had a prime suspect—to use older but more useful terminology—they wouldn't be holding press conferences and asking the public for tips. There would be virtual radio silence from LE. They would be watching that suspect and quietly building a case—eliminating other suspects, interviewing the prime suspect's acquaintances, etc.

Playing devil's advocate, that could be exact what is going on behind the scenes. How would we know one way or the other? Unless you're local and have heard things, in which case, from what you say, all hope is gone.

 

[sunshineray]

BBM. Why not? There is such a thing as make-up (stage style) or masks. Masks have been discussed in the threads here in great detail.
What you just said rather hit me hard. (Thank you!) Maybe that was the situation here. Could BG have been wearing some disguise that he ripped off out of sight and left the scene looking different in appearance? He couldn't change his general description too much, but perhaps he changed details. His face, to me, doesn't look real. Maybe his real face (with goatee?) was hidden under tape or plastic or something. Maybe that's what got the girls' attention, saying he looked (was it) creepy?
But to be wearing a disguise already means intent. Premeditation.

If it turns out BG did employ fake facial hair or features I will be astounded. But...when we know so little really, never say never I suppose.

 

[Yemelyan]

I don’t think he said, odd.

I think he said, “physically, strange”.

And it is different.

“Physically strange” might be either absence or presence of something usually found at the crime scenes, too cluttered or too clean, maybe?

I am trying to imagine, what would look physically strange to a prosecutor that had seen his share of crimes? Either something “unnatural”, “pretending to be what it was not”, or?

I haven’t seen crime scenes in my life. But deaths, I have. And mostly, death is not a clean process.

I wonder if “dirty” is what was amiss at the crime scene. Whatever it means. JMO.

Sorry, but he definitely said "odd." In the Down the Hill podcast, Robert Ives says it at 7:51 in Episode 5. Not that there is much difference between "physically strange" - which he also said - and "odd," but just for the sake of total accuracy....he called the crime scene odd.

And I don't think it was because the scene was too clean, as he also explained that there was much more physical evidence than one would think.

Have you listened to this podcast @Charlot123 ? It seems to me that some of the things you have difficulty understanding (signatures) or like to speculate about, are addressed there.

 

[Ozoner]

Playing devil's advocate, that could be exact what is going on behind the scenes. How would we know one way or the other? Unless you're local and have heard things, in which case, from what you say, all hope is gone.

I'm not local, but I've followed scores and scores of missing-person and murder cases over the past 30+ years. I can absolutely guarantee that LE did not have a prime suspect as of that 2019 press conference. I wouldn't say that all hope is gone, though; LE may have developed a prime suspect since the presser or may eventually do so. BG's name may already be on a (long) list of people that they haven't been able to clear. (The worst case scenario would be that they looked at BG and cleared him in error.)

 

[sunshineray]

I'm not local, but I've followed scores and scores of missing-person and murder cases over the past 30+ years. I can absolutely guarantee that LE did not have a prime suspect as of that 2019 press conference. I wouldn't say that all hope is gone, though; LE may have developed a prime suspect since the presser or may eventually do so. BG's name may already be on a (long) list of people that they haven't been able to clear. (The worst case scenario would be that they looked at BG and cleared him in error.)

I'm sorry, as you can probably tell, I'm going through a bit of a rough time with this case. It's heartbreaking, agravating and my feelings about it all are on edge lately, not very objective.

Apologies from my heart to any who are really on the front lines with this. My prayers are always with you, thinking of Abby and Libby.

 

[Charlot123]

Sorry, but he definitely said "odd." In the Down the Hill podcast, Robert Ives says it at 7:51 in Episode 5. Not that there is much difference between "physically strange" - which he also said - and "odd," but just for the sake of total accuracy....he called the crime scene odd.

And I don't think it was because the scene was too clean, as he also explained that there was much more physical evidence than one would think.

Have you listened to this podcast @Charlot123 ? It seems to me that some of the things you have difficulty understanding (signatures) or like to speculate about, are addressed there.

I tried to.

@Yemelyan , in general my visual and auditory memory are equally good, but podcasts are not for me. I am a fast reader, so anything that doesn’t match the speed of written delivery of information feels slow. So I ended up listening and reading something else, at the same time, and then stopped because most of these people I had already heard. If there is a written form of the podcast somewhere, it would help more. I listened to Ives, though, because he was new to me. Point me to the text, if it exists, please. (Or, I can spend 2 hours listening to important parts, but not all of it).

Also: regardless of me, why do you think he called it odd?

 

[MistyWaters]

Playing devil's advocate, that could be exact what is going on behind the scenes. How would we know one way or the other? Unless you're local and have heard things, in which case, from what you say, all hope is gone.

From the beginning of this case, even when only the photo was initially circulated for the first few months and then later came the release of the first sketch, several times LE has sternly requested SM to cease and desist making online allegations.

So if the suspect in sketch #2 was known to LE at the time of the PC last year, do you really think it’s logical LE would’ve willingly facilitated yet other round of online feeding frenzy, plus accumulate another immense volume of useless tips? To have done so reeks of utter investigative incompetence, if it was anything but a genuine ask for tips from somebody who is able to assist LE in identifying the suspect IMO.

That many people in these large online groups seem to believe LE is providing clues to reveal the identity of the killer of Abby and Libby, as if their real life murders have become some sort of virtual guessing game, leaves me with a feeling of great sadness for the families of the girls and the investigators actively involved as well.

BBM

Police warn online sleuthing could hamper investigation into Delphi murders
“But one area that could hurt their investigation are online web sleuths who attach names and faces to online gossip attempting to solve the Delphi murders. Police warn that this practice could slow the case and put the public at risk.

Some online groups have upwards of 20,000 members, and accusations within the groups run rampant. Police stress, the bottom line is, if you have a tip, send it to the tip line.

“When you have people who are trying to solve this case with unorthodox methods, it could not only be detrimental to innocent people, but it could harm the case as well,” said Indiana State Police Sgt. John Perrine......

.......On social media, accusations fly, including names, pictures and where people work or go to school.

“There are some issues with defamation of character,” Perrine cautioned.

One Delphi group on Facebook has 24,000 members; another on Reddit has 30,000. Countless smaller groups exist boasting thousands of members each....”

 

[Yemelyan]

I tried to.

@Yemelyan , in general my visual and auditory memory are equally good, but podcasts are not for me. I am a fast reader, so anything that doesn’t match the speed of written delivery of information feels slow. So I ended up listening and reading something else, at the same time, and then stopped because most of these people I had already heard. If there is a written form of the podcast somewhere, it would help more. I listened to Ives, though, because he was new to me. Point me to the text, if it exists, please. (Or, I can spend 2 hours listening to important parts, but not all of it).

Also: regardless of me, why do you think he called it odd?

The episode is just 35 minutes long and if you tune in at 4:32 and again at 7:51 you can hear him say exactly why he thinks it was "odd." You don't have to listen to all 35 minutes, but I'd recommend going on to listen to FBI profiler Mary Ellen O'Toole at least.

I'm not Robert Ives so I can't say exactly what his feelings are. Clearly, he wants to get the point across that anytime one person takes the life of another, that is an "odd" (as in "unnatural") circumstance. But his other point is that in addition to that, this particular crime scene had enough unusual facts about it, that it is "odd" when compared to other crime scenes he has known.

He reiterates several times that he's not allowed to say exactly what these unusual facts are. But he says there's a lot more evidence than you'd think, and it's likely not what you think it is. There were a variety of things at the scene that were "not normal" and most importantly, he thinks that if this person commits another crime, these things could pop up again. There's more in the podcast and it's worth listening.