Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #124

[SMK777]

Excellent speculations and reasoning.
I still keep ruminating on the two girls....and the potential of discovery in the open. This Perp had to have been attached to one of those two houses in some way...if only loosely. Knowing both weren't home....that has to be a fairly narrow group of suspects?

Amateur opinion and speculation

In the past there was speculation that the property owner was jailed for a petty violation because they felt he knew who BG was and were trying to get him to talk. Speculation only of course but do you think it has any merit?

 

[SMK777]

statistically speaking, abduction/murders like this are usually a young man's game.

In the early 20th century there was a case of an older gentleman in his 60s abducting and killing children. (1920s case of Albert Fish)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Fish

 

[charminglane]

Excellent speculations and reasoning.
I still keep ruminating on the two girls....and the potential of discovery in the open. This Perp had to have been attached to one of those two houses in some way...if only loosely. Knowing both weren't home....that has to be a fairly narrow group of suspects?

Amateur opinion and speculation

Maybe there were construction or landscaping crews that had done improvements on the homes recently? Employee observed area for future crime?

 

[Marzipan]

Here is more on that early person of interest, giving him voice on the case and main stream media so I hope this is allowed.
I’m not accusing him, just saying I keep going back to him. Back in Colorado Springs, Daniel Nations says 'I'm not what they made me out to be'

 

[Rocky1]

I like reading along.
I recall so much analysis on this guy that it made my head spin.

Is that a hat, or a full head of hair?
What's that, a billy club going down his right thigh, inside his jeans?
Does he have a leather work pouch?
That HAS to be a gun outline, say, his right side, inner jacket pocket!
Around his neck? A scarf? A drinking straw? A plastic bag? A grey hoodie stickin' out?
Does the dude have a limp? Or is he high steppin' the gaps between those ties?

And then there's the age thingy. This particular frame, for me, gives him a boyish look of say, 22 to 27 years old!

Then again, if I stare long enough at that head of hair, I begin to see a coon skin cap, maybe a fox head hat, or some such wild animal with a pointy nose looking back at me.

See that baby face or what?

Clic the pic to expand

After watching the press conference with Carter, I believe he speculated as much as anyone. I also believed he had no clue who the guy is.

"Don't go by that sketch, Here's the new sketch. Don't go by this one, he looks like someone in the middle of both".

"He may be in this room among us".
The next day on GMA... "Do you really think he was in that room with you?".... "Well, he was close".
(what's close? 10 miles away sitting in a pizza shop?)

"We believe he either lives here, or works here, or visits here."

"He's between 18 and 40 years old." (aren't most killers?)

"We have new information that may break this case, and here it is"....
"Down the hill."

 

[Yemelyan]

In the early 20th century there was a case of an older gentleman in his 60s abducting and killing children. (1920s case of Albert Fish)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Fish
Albert Fish - Wikipedia

I didn't say it never happens. Just statistically speaking, you don't see older men represented as much. If you listened to some of the podcasts about the Delphi case, you may have heard the professional opinions of Dr. Katherine Brown about signatures? She's famous in the law enforcement world for her research about child murders specifically. In a landmark study she did on this type of murder, she found that only 10% of child murderers were age 40 or older. 12% were 18 or younger. 66% were between the ages of 18 and 30. The average age was 27. In all 780 cases studied in her report, only one man was older than 60. That's why I said "statistically speaking."

 

[rosesfromangels]

In the past there was speculation that the property owner was jailed for a petty violation because they felt he knew who BG was and were trying to get him to talk. Speculation only of course but do you think it has any merit?

LE uses all sorts of tactics during the course of an investigation. It wouldn't surprise me if they did this, although I'm sure they jailed him legitimately.
As to whether the Perp has any connection to either properties; I have no way of even guessing. However, it wouldn't surprise me.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[rosesfromangels]

Maybe there were construction or landscaping crews that had done improvements on the homes recently? Employee observed area for future crime?

Good speculation.
There has to be a connection to that location beyond the casual.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[Yemelyan]

In the early 20th century there was a case of an older gentleman in his 60s abducting and killing children. (1920s case of Albert Fish)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Fish
Albert Fish - Wikipedia

Albert Fish is actually an excellent example of what I was talking about in my original post. He didn't become active in his 60s. His sexual offenses actually began quite young. In his 20s he was active as an offender against both children and adults, then in his 40s, 50s, and 60s though his crimes escalated to murder from sexual assault and torture, they became focused exclusively on children. Probably he could no longer be sure he could control the young adult men he previously included as victims.

So this is why I said that when the identity of BG is known, he will likely be younger but if he IS older he may have been active for awhile and have prior crimes that don't seem very like Delphi in terms of victims selected.

Thanks @SMK777 for finding a great example to illustrate my post.

 

[rosesfromangels]

Albert Fish is actually an excellent example of what I was talking about in my original post. He didn't become active in his 60s. His sexual offenses actually began quite young. In his 20s he was active as an offender against both children and adults, then in his 40s, 50s, and 60s though his crimes escalated to murder from sexual assault and torture, they became focused exclusively on children. Probably he could no longer be sure he could control the young adult men he previously included as victims.

So this is why I said that when the identity of BG is known, he will likely be younger but if he IS older he may have been active for awhile and have prior crimes that don't seem very like Delphi in terms of victims selected.

Thanks @SMK777 for finding a great example to illustrate my post.

I don't think the Delphi Perp is a novice, and the more I dig in to the Lyric and Lizzy case, the more I speculate it's the same Perp. If I'm right, he has a thing for girl pals, with a specific look. And that leads me to my next speculation...and it's a real wild card.

What is the motive here is yes, sexual assault, but also money?
Meaning, he is creating these gruesome scenes and capturing it on go-pro, or via photos? Then, selling it for $$$ to like minded miscreants?

I'm stuck on this notion of posing, and creating a scene. Like a film producer. A gruesome, twisted one out for profit on the dark web....
Perhaps this is off the mark....but why else two girls....
I just think there is something worthy of exploration in this extreme speculation.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[SMK777]

I didn't say it never happens. Just statistically speaking, you don't see older men represented as much. If you listened to some of the podcasts about the Delphi case, you may have heard the professional opinions of Dr. Katherine Brown about signatures? She's famous in the law enforcement world for her research about child murders specifically. In a landmark study she did on this type of murder, she found that only 10% of child murderers were age 40 or older. 12% were 18 or younger. 66% were between the ages of 18 and 30. The average age was 27. In all 780 cases studied in her report, only one man was older than 60. That's why I said "statistically speaking."

Oh, yes, of course I agree that statistically speaking you’re correct — and it’s indeed rare that a man in his 60s would commit such a crime.

I just wanted to point out Albert Fish because he abducted and killed both girls and boys between 12-15 years of age, in the same range as Abby and Libby.

So it is possible and something to keep in mind, that their killer could be 50-60.

 

[SMK777]

Albert Fish is actually an excellent example of what I was talking about in my original post. He didn't become active in his 60s. His sexual offenses actually began quite young. In his 20s he was active as an offender against both children and adults, then in his 40s, 50s, and 60s though his crimes escalated to murder from sexual assault and torture, they became focused exclusively on children. Probably he could no longer be sure he could control the young adult men he previously included as victims.

So this is why I said that when the identity of BG is known, he will likely be younger but if he IS older he may have been active for awhile and have prior crimes that don't seem very like Delphi in terms of victims selected.

Thanks @SMK777 for finding a great example to illustrate my post.

You’re right, it definitely validates what you said upthread, that if he’s older you imagine he began as a younger man and had now changed his modus operandi!

 

[SMK777]

I don't think the Delphi Perp is a novice, and the more I dig in to the Lyric and Lizzy case, the more I speculate it's the same Perp. If I'm right, he has a thing for girl pals, with a specific look. And that leads me to my next speculation...and it's a real wild card.

What is the motive here is yes, sexual assault, but also money?
Meaning, he is creating these gruesome scenes and capturing it on go-pro, or via photos? Then, selling it for $$$ to like minded miscreants?

I'm stuck on this notion of posing, and creating a scene. Like a film producer. A gruesome, twisted one out for profit on the dark web....
Perhaps this is off the mark....but why else two girls....
I just think there is something worthy of exploration in this extreme speculation.

Amateur opinion and speculation

That is indeed a grisly possibility. Sadly there is a market for evil and macabre things. I hope LE has considered this.

 

[charminglane]

I don't think the Delphi Perp is a novice, and the more I dig in to the Lyric and Lizzy case, the more I speculate it's the same Perp. If I'm right, he has a thing for girl pals, with a specific look. And that leads me to my next speculation...and it's a real wild card.

What is the motive here is yes, sexual assault, but also money?
Meaning, he is creating these gruesome scenes and capturing it on go-pro, or via photos? Then, selling it for $$$ to like minded miscreants?

I'm stuck on this notion of posing, and creating a scene. Like a film producer. A gruesome, twisted one out for profit on the dark web....
Perhaps this is off the mark....but why else two girls....
I just think there is something worthy of exploration in this extreme speculation.

Amateur opinion and speculation

I am of the mind that he has two daughters or two sisters.

 

[rosesfromangels]

I am of the mind that he has two daughters or two sisters.

The way these Perp’s minds work it could be two goldfish. It’s impossible to predict.

amateur opinion and speculation

 

[cujenn81]

I’ve decided to go back and re-listen to both the Scene of the Crime: Delphi and Down the Hill podcasts. I think they both did a very good job of presenting the facts in this case. So, I wanted to revisit them and take notes. I’ve only re-listened to Episode 1 of SOC so far — but I thought I’d share a few of my notes and/or the things I find particularly interesting as I go along.

- LG and her sister Kelsie had checked two geocaching spots on the trails a few weeks earlier

- trail system has over 8 miles of wide and flat wooded trails and 2 miles of narrower paved trails (for biking, etc.)

- Monon High Bridge is 63 feet off the ground and 854 feet long

- the bridge is often used as a backdrop for engagement and senior photos (despite not being structurally sound or safe for pedestrians)

- Kelsie said she and LG had been to the bridge many times to take photos

- Anna (AW’s mom) said Abby had never been on the bridge but had been out to the trails with her many times before

- KG said she thinks it was around 1:38-1:39 pm when she dropped the girls off

- KG said the trail system is a popular teenage hangout and “what people in Delphi did on nice days”

- KG said she usually sees people she knows there and rarely saw anyone she didn’t know; she also knew people her age who had been on the trails earlier in the day on 2/17


This surprised me a little bit because I’ve seen several people say the trails aren’t that popular and that it wouldn’t really make sense for BG to “hunt” there because people aren’t guaranteed to be there. Kelsie’s description of the trails is quite the opposite.

The trail system was also described as somewhat of the town’s attraction by LG’s grandad. He referenced advertisements on the lamp posts in the town of Delphi. Again, I’ve seen it mentioned that BG would have to be local or have ties to the area to even know the trails were there — but that isn’t true if advertised in town?

That’s just something to think about.

 

[Yemelyan]

I’ve decided to go back and re-listen to both the Scene of the Crime: Delphi and Down the Hill podcasts. I think they both did a very good job of presenting the facts in this case. So, I wanted to revisit them and take notes. I’ve only re-listened to Episode 1 of SOC so far — but I thought I’d share a few of my notes and/or the things I find particularly interesting as I go along.

- LG and her sister Kelsie had checked two geocaching spots on the trails a few weeks earlier

- trail system has over 8 miles of wide and flat wooded trails and 2 miles of narrower paved trails (for biking, etc.)

- Monon High Bridge is 63 feet off the ground and 854 feet long

- the bridge is often used as a backdrop for engagement and senior photos (despite not being structurally sound or safe for pedestrians)

- Kelsie said she and LG had been to the bridge many times to take photos

- Anna (AW’s mom) said Abby had never been on the bridge but had been out to the trails with her many times before

- KG said she thinks it was around 1:38-1:39 pm when she dropped the girls off

- KG said the trail system is a popular teenage hangout and “what people in Delphi did on nice days”

- KG said she usually sees people she knows there and rarely saw anyone she didn’t know; she also knew people her age who had been on the trails earlier in the day on 2/17


This surprised me a little bit because I’ve seen several people say the trails aren’t that popular and that it wouldn’t really make sense for BG to “hunt” there because people aren’t guaranteed to be there. Kelsie’s description of the trails is quite the opposite.

The trail system was also described as somewhat of the town’s attraction by LG’s grandad. He referenced advertisements on the lamp posts in the town of Delphi. Again, I’ve seen it mentioned that BG would have to be local or have ties to the area to even know the trails were there — but that isn’t true if advertised in town?

That’s just something to think about.

Excellent idea. I did the same re-listen recently and found it very enlightening. There are so many questions/what ifs/speculations here on this board that are clearly answered by these podcasts.

For example, on a later episode of Scene of the Crime Kelsi interviews Carter and asks him directly about the Shack reference. And he says....drum roll....it was just a movie that he had seen about murder so that's why he mentioned it. That's all. It's not a coded reference to the Nicole Bowen murder. It doesn't mean Abby and Libby were in a shack at one point before being returned to the crime scene. It was just something Carter watched that he found emotionally meaningful.

 

[rosesfromangels]

Excellent idea. I did the same re-listen recently and found it very enlightening. There are so many questions/what ifs/speculations here on this board that are clearly answered by these podcasts.

For example, on a later episode of Scene of the Crime Kelsi interviews Carter and asks him directly about the Shack reference. And he says....drum roll....it was just a movie that he had seen about murder so that's why he mentioned it. That's all. It's not a coded reference to the Nicole Bowen murder. It doesn't mean Abby and Libby were in a shack at one point before being returned to the crime scene. It was just something Carter watched that he found emotionally meaningful.

You are making such an important point Yemelyan. When a case stretches in to months, then years, we all tend to start looking for "code" and come up with some pretty wild speculations; yours truly included. Not all killers are zodiac killers taunting LE with cryptic codes. Most of them are driven by defective impulses, and likely have under developed frontal lobes. They're not that bright. When this Perp is arrested, I think we'll be underwhelmed by his profile. Just another miscreant who chose deviance and evil.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I’ve decided to go back and re-listen to both the Scene of the Crime: Delphi and Down the Hill podcasts. I think they both did a very good job of presenting the facts in this case. So, I wanted to revisit them and take notes. I’ve only re-listened to Episode 1 of SOC so far — but I thought I’d share a few of my notes and/or the things I find particularly interesting as I go along.

- LG and her sister Kelsie had checked two geocaching spots on the trails a few weeks earlier

- trail system has over 8 miles of wide and flat wooded trails and 2 miles of narrower paved trails (for biking, etc.)

- Monon High Bridge is 63 feet off the ground and 854 feet long

- the bridge is often used as a backdrop for engagement and senior photos (despite not being structurally sound or safe for pedestrians)

- Kelsie said she and LG had been to the bridge many times to take photos

- Anna (AW’s mom) said Abby had never been on the bridge but had been out to the trails with her many times before

- KG said she thinks it was around 1:38-1:39 pm when she dropped the girls off

- KG said the trail system is a popular teenage hangout and “what people in Delphi did on nice days”

- KG said she usually sees people she knows there and rarely saw anyone she didn’t know; she also knew people her age who had been on the trails earlier in the day on 2/17


This surprised me a little bit because I’ve seen several people say the trails aren’t that popular and that it wouldn’t really make sense for BG to “hunt” there because people aren’t guaranteed to be there. Kelsie’s description of the trails is quite the opposite.

The trail system was also described as somewhat of the town’s attraction by LG’s grandad. He referenced advertisements on the lamp posts in the town of Delphi. Again, I’ve seen it mentioned that BG would have to be local or have ties to the area to even know the trails were there — but that isn’t true if advertised in town?

That’s just something to think about.

Very good points. I’ve never really thought just because the killer was at the trails it meant he was local or was local at some point. He might be local, but I don’t think that’s necessarily an indicator of it.
KG saying she rarely saw people she didn’t know is interesting. It could be the killer is a serial killer and picked a place he would not be recognized. KG’s statement might just explain why nobody has recognized him, and blow holes in the “he’s local” theory.

 

[SMK777]

You are making such an important point Yemelyan. When a case stretches in to months, then years, we all tend to start looking for "code" and come up with some pretty wild speculations; yours truly included. Not all killers are zodiac killers taunting LE with cryptic codes. Most of them are driven by defective impulses, and likely have under developed frontal lobes. They're not that bright. When this Perp is arrested, I think we'll be underwhelmed by his profile. Just another miscreant who chose deviance and evil.

Amateur opinion and speculation

I agree with your statement. Often times these evil acts and motives are mundane and bland.

That said, I’m really starting to think, after 3 1/2 years, that if/when this killer is caught, it will NOT be because of a tip, nor because a friend or family member finally turns him in.

Rather, I think it will be along the lines of: In a neighboring state a state trooper pulls over a vehicle. Because the driver shows signs of being under the influence, there is probable cause to search the car. A map of the Delphi trails/ bridge is found, along with a souvenir from the murder, which links him to it. ……………I honestly can’t believe in any other scenario at this late date.