Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #125

[StarryStarryNight]

Hello Everyone,


Long time lurker here.

I would like to preface by saying that true crime is really a borderline obsession with me.

I have been watching, reading, googling , etc. anything and everything that I can find on the Delphi murder.

This case is baffling. To have what should be the most powerful evidence LE could ask for , yet still have no arrest 3 and a half year's later is disheartening , to say the least.

I do my best to focus on the facts in any case, this case is no exception.

Having said that, with 3 plus years behind us, I can understand how easy it is grasp onto public rumor and also to theorize with our own scenario; Begrudgingly, I admit to having dabbled in this myself at times with this case.

I just try to remember that this case is about 2 young girls and their families that have lost them. I wish there was a way to dial back the clock and erase this deed from the planet.

I will summarize the things that I believe I can say are steadfast and true in the case.

1. 2 girls having a fun day where murdered in cold blood and in broad daylight.

2. Libby's sister dropped them at the Monon High Bridge at approximately 1:37 PM.

3. Libby's father arrived to pick them up and was on foot by 3:15 PM.

4. Libby’s father approaches who is referred to as FSG, and asks if he has seen the girls. FSG was walking West on the 501 trail and said he had not seen the girls .

5. Just after 3:30 , Libby’s father calls to let BP know that Libby has not answered his calls, he cannot find either girl.

6. Just after 4:20 others begin to show up to look for the girls.

7.Around 5:20 , the police are contacted.

8. A search for the girls begins, going into the night , but the girls are not found.

9. Around Noon on Valentine’s day, the bodies of the girls are found. We do not know specifically WHO found them.

10. Libby’s shoe was found near a driveway before the bodies are discovered.

11. Libby’s cellphone was recovered in close proximity to the CS.

12. The phone has information that LE is able to extract . Initially, there is a photo and a voice saying “Down the Hill.”

13. A sketch is released to the public that is thought to resemble the person responsible for the murders.

14. More than 2 years pass, and a news conference is held. We now have a video snippet, another audio (more soft and youthful voice) saying “ Guys”, and a new look for the murderer. The murderer lives, has lived in and/or is quite familiar with Delphi.

15. Some of the latest interviews with LE have released the fact that the crime scene was “odd “ and that there is a lot of physical evidence. There are at least 3 signatures left a t the crime scene.


I hope if anyone here has something that can be added to facts that they will do so. Facts are a jumping point to make certain conclusions, but at best, they are theories. I always believe that Occam’s razor is one of the best ways to solve a crime. Saying so, the world is so out of whack , I know that so many things are possible.

I always tell myself, that the answer is somewhere in these facts . It has to be.. what in the world are we missing? What is LE missing?

Welcome to the discussion!
This case has so few real facts supplied by LE it is very easy for speculation to fire off in thousands of directions, but we try to keep the theories within the parameters of those few facts. Thanks for listing a few!

 

[rosesfromangels]

Here's what I notice:
They're dropped off at 1:37.
1 hour and 38 minutes later at 3:15 DG hits the trails on foot. My question: Why so fast to go hunt? Was he already panicking after not getting a cell message back? Why? That really seems like a picky short time to hike to me. Was there another reason he's so fast to get worried? He calls BP at 3:30. By 4:20 others are helping. An hour later by 5:30 LE is called. The family's concern mounted quickly, in contrast to a lesser level of concern from LE who thinks it may be irresponsible teenage behavior. Did the family panic quickly because of reason or just because the girls wouldn't be so irresponsible. At about 11 year old a friend and I got involved playing in the nearby woods. The time flew by and we forgot we had dance class. Our moms were angry we'd wasted a class, lessons were expensive, but nobody sent out search parties or they'd have found us. The panic in the case of the girls seems to have mounted quickly. I don't know my point except why? Maybe I played in the woods in gentler times?

Interesting post....
I have always wondered why everyone got so concerned so fast as well.
I could only conclude that both or one of the girls was extremely conscientious and that the lateness/not answering phone was completely out of character, thus triggering immediate concern.

That being said, it's an important question and could point to some prior concern that could somehow be involved with this outcome? I have no idea, but it's a worthy question for sure.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[Yemelyan]

Here's what I notice:
They're dropped off at 1:37.
1 hour and 38 minutes later at 3:15 DG hits the trails on foot. My question: Why so fast to go hunt? Was he already panicking after not getting a cell message back? Why? That really seems like a picky short time to hike to me. Was there another reason he's so fast to get worried? He calls BP at 3:30. By 4:20 others are helping. An hour later by 5:30 LE is called. The family's concern mounted quickly, in contrast to a lesser level of concern from LE who thinks it may be irresponsible teenage behavior. Did the family panic quickly because of reason or just because the girls wouldn't be so irresponsible. At about 11 year old a friend and I got involved playing in the nearby woods. The time flew by and we forgot we had dance class. Our moms were angry we'd wasted a class, lessons were expensive, but nobody sent out search parties or they'd have found us. The panic in the case of the girls seems to have mounted quickly. I don't know my point except why? Maybe I played in the woods in gentler times?

This was answered in the Scene of the Crime podcast. Libby had been told that if family ever called, she was not allowed to ignore or not answer the call. And she had always been conscientious on that point. That's why they got concerned so fast that the girls had perhaps been hurt or in an accident (they weren't thinking murder of course).

In addition, this is my own speculation but DG was actually in the middle of his own workday. He worked for his mom but he was out doing work-related business that afternoon. It sounded like he told them to be ready to leave right when he got there because he had other stuff he had to get done and he was on a schedule. Again JMO but that's why I think he didn't just wait around for them. And the more he looked the more concerned he got.

 

[Andreee]

BBM

10. I thought the shoe was found by the creek, I don't remember ever hearing about it being near a driveway. Have I been wrong on this the whole time?

11. Depends on your definition of "close proximity". As far as I'm aware it's not known exactly where it was found, although seemingly it was at least relatively close by.

14. LE believes this (or at minimum they did at the time of the press conference), but since obviously the murderer is unknown it cannot be said to be factual.

I have always thought the shoe was found by the creek! It makes sense, rather than being found on a driveway which I have never heard and would've led to a different line of speculation.

 

[Rhiannon Gray]

Oh, there is absolutely nothing wrong with speculation, as long as it's clearly indicated that that's all it is. And while some of the speculation to me seems completely off the rails, one person's "wild" speculation may make perfect sense to others, so who am I (or is anyone) to say what's going too far?

The important thing in discussing whatever on here is to have a clear boundary between what is fact and what is opinion. As long as that boundary is in place, theorize away, it's all good

Thank you for your response.
That is good information to have.
And, you are right- speculation and theories are what build good conversations.

 

[Rhiannon Gray]

These are all great examples of how to speculate and convey that you are doing so.

Quite a few people on here think the gait on the video is totally meaningless, but I agree with you that it is important.

I don't put a ton of faith in the sketches either, although (and I am in the minority on here) I think if the BG does resemble a sketch it's more likely to be the one released at the press conference, rather than the originally released one.

What exactly do you mean by "matrixing" in this context?

I hope that I am wording correctly.
My understanding of visual matrixing is that we tend to se things that are not there, because our brains need to make sense of things, or perhaps , rationalize what we are seeing.
I have seen so many people under the impression that the murderer is "older" because...well, because he just "looks" that way.
In my opinion, he doesn't "look" any way.
Why? Because we cannot see his face and cannot make out any features on his face. There is no way to say he looks older , or younger, or any way at all.
Even his clothing to a degree, is largely up for debate-
Hat, or no hat?
Jacket that seems to be navy blue..but there is NO way to know WHAT type of jacket..it could literally be a hundred different types?
The human in all of us wants and strains to see what is there-
but, if we are being honest.. it is a "human blob" that committed a most heinous act.
I hope that technology advances in some way that will allow the video to show what is really there.
My speculation here- we will all be surprised to see who the monster really is.

 

[Rhiannon Gray]

I have always thought the shoe was found by the creek! It makes sense, rather than being found on a driveway which I have never heard and would've led to a different line of speculation.

Hmmm, perhaps I have made my first mistake.
If that is the case, I stand corrected. If I can find the source that stated the shoe was in a driveway, I will post it.
In the meantime, I yield my that my point is incorrect.
The point really is that Libby lost a shoe.
And that opens up questions.

 

[Rhiannon Gray]

It all depends on the motive. If it is sexual, and the person is a SK, then chances are, no one saw him.

If it is an “operation to eliminate” one of the girls (as a witness, or for another reason), then, there might have been several “scouts” here and there, and scarce witnesses saw them.

I don’t know what it was, it is beginning to look like 2nd scenario masked as the 1st one. Then, it might have been so that no one saw the real killer, but all these “scouts” are perpetrators as well.

Interesting theory regarding scouts.
Basing my thoughts, or rather my opinion, solely on human behavior- if any more than one person was involved here, someone would likely more likely than not cave in and offer information to someone. People just are not good at keeping quiet.
If several people were involved, it would raise so many questions.
Not the least of which is why would people agree to participate in harming 2 innocent girls?

 

[sunshineray]

I believe he came prepared, may have been using a wearable camera..he moves at a clip along the bridge but tries to conceal aggressive body language as not to alarm them before he is close.

I also think he has had prior contact or has possibly stalked the girls. mOO

You know I also think it's very possible that one or both of the girls were watched...online. I don't mean in a targeting catfish way.

BP has said that she knew all LG's passwords to her social media accounts and would check up on what LG was doing Most likely she did the same for KG too.

When my son was in junior high he had close to 500 friends on Facebook. His class was barely half that. So many kids did the same. It seemed to be a thing to just keep growing that friends list with friends of friends.

It's very possible another child's parent, having access to their child's SM account passwords, could go online and find out where any number of kids were that day. School was out on an unusually calm day for Winter.

All the checking LE did online after the murders, it wouldn't really be able to differentiate if a SM account is just being monitored by a parent, used for nefarious reasons by a parent or if a child is logged on themselves. How to tell really without interviewing each and every child and parents?

 

[dub]

I hope that I am wording correctly.
My understanding of visual matrixing is that we tend to se things that are not there, because our brains need to make sense of things, or perhaps , rationalize what we are seeing.
I have seen so many people under the impression that the murderer is "older" because...well, because he just "looks" that way.
In my opinion, he doesn't "look" any way.
Why? Because we cannot see his face and cannot make out any features on his face. There is no way to say he looks older , or younger, or any way at all.
Even his clothing to a degree, is largely up for debate-
Hat, or no hat?
Jacket that seems to be navy blue..but there is NO way to know WHAT type of jacket..it could literally be a hundred different types?
The human in all of us wants and strains to see what is there-
but, if we are being honest.. it is a "human blob" that committed a most heinous act.
I hope that technology advances in some way that will allow the video to show what is really there.
My speculation here- we will all be surprised to see who the monster really is.

I don't know if I've ever heard the term visual matrixing, but the concepts you're talking about and how they apply to this case, I am with you 100%.

 

[Rhiannon Gray]

So what was the precipitating factor for that, first, attack? Does anyone know?

Snipped by me for focus.

The precipitating factor for any attack , is opportunity.
It may sound small, but that is what needs to be present in order for an attack to take place.

This is my opinion.

 

[minazoe]

opportunity, but fantasy is the driver, the sexually driven fantasy drives the bus. mOO

 

[cujenn81]

I came across this very interesting article on another thread.

The Serial-Killer Detector

Each year, about five thousand people kill someone and don’t get caught, and a percentage of these men and women have undoubtedly killed more than once.

The F.B.I. believes that less than one per cent of the killings each year are carried out by serial killers, but Hargrove thinks that the percentage is higher, and that there are probably around two thousand serial killers at large in the U.S. “How do I know?” he said. “A few years ago, I got some people at the F.B.I. to run the question of how many murders in their records are unsolved but have been linked through DNA.” The answer was about fourteen hundred, slightly more than two per cent of the murders in the files they consulted. “Those are just the cases they were able to lock down with DNA,” Hargrove said. “And killers don’t always leave DNA—it’s a gift when you get it. So two per cent is a floor, not a ceiling.”

Someone versed in statistics can run the algorithm, which appears on map’s Web site. The rest of us, who might, for example, wish to know how many killings are unsolved where we live, can use the site’s “search cases” function. Deborah Smith, who lives in New Orleans, is a hobby map searcher and a forum moderator on Websleuths, an online watering hole for amateur detectives. “I keep spreadsheets of murdered and missing women around the country, with statistics, and I highlight murders that I think might be related,” she told me. “I have them for nearly every state, and that comes from map. If I have a killer, like, say, Israel Keys, who was in Seattle about fifteen years ago, I’ll look up murders in Seattle and parts of Alaska, because he lived there, too, and see if there were any the police might have overlooked.” She added, “map is just extremely, extremely useful for that. There isn’t really anything else like it.”

 

[somequestions]

You are mentioning legal hubris. There was also a religious meaning...Greek heroes punished for it had some reasons to be excessively proud, as in most cases they were relatives of gods and initially, liked by them. However, in their arrogance, they felt higher that gods. Hubris was the act born out of immense self-conceit, and the punishment was more for thinking than for the act.

As the biggest sin, hubris that was penalized in the worst way possible. (See Tantalus, Niobe, Sisyphus, etc, etc).

Does this, second, meaning apply to the killer? It is up to the Olympian gods. One hopes...

I do not know why this person did what they did to Abigail Williams and Liberty German. Theorizing about what LE says concerning this case is difficult without more information. It would be somewhat unique if Liberty German did indeed catch the murderer on video.

Sometimes people are evil for the purposes of being evil. If this case gets solved maybe someday the question, why, will be answered.

 

[Rhiannon Gray]

Here's what I notice:
They're dropped off at 1:37.
1 hour and 38 minutes later at 3:15 DG hits the trails on foot. My question: Why so fast to go hunt? Was he already panicking after not getting a cell message back? Why? That really seems like a picky short time to hike to me. Was there another reason he's so fast to get worried? He calls BP at 3:30. By 4:20 others are helping. An hour later by 5:30 LE is called. The family's concern mounted quickly, in contrast to a lesser level of concern from LE who thinks it may be irresponsible teenage behavior. Did the family panic quickly because of reason or just because the girls wouldn't be so irresponsible. At about 11 year old a friend and I got involved playing in the nearby woods. The time flew by and we forgot we had dance class. Our moms were angry we'd wasted a class, lessons were expensive, but nobody sent out search parties or they'd have found us. The panic in the case of the girls seems to have mounted quickly. I don't know my point except why? Maybe I played in the woods in gentler times?

My thoughts align with another poster here.
Libby knew that she was to answer calls from family immediately.
She was not responding at all.
This was out of character.

 

[Rhiannon Gray]

Welcome to the discussion!
This case has so few real facts supplied by LE it is very easy for speculation to fire off in thousands of directions, but we try to keep the theories within the parameters of those few facts. Thanks for listing a few!

Thank you for the welcome!
I hope that I will add helpful elements to the conversation.
I have enjoyed reading through the threads.
There is so much information and so many valuable insights.

 

[sunshineray]

My thoughts align with another poster here.
Libby knew that she was to answer calls from family immediately.
She was not responding at all.
This was out of character.

I think also the time of day and season played a factor. If the girls had been dropped off that morning at 10 to be picked up at 12 noon, I don't think as much alarm would have happened as quickly. It would have been daylight with the Sun at it's hottest instead of the Sun on it's way down with dusk and Winter cold closing in.

Maybe KG seeing that picture of Abby walking across the high bridge had something to do with quick alarm happening too. After KG was contacted about the girls not being at pick-up or answering the phone or texts, did she share seeing that photo with her grandparents?

 

[Falling Down]

On the topic of the 10 mile total Delphi Historic Trail, I’ve often wondered if the killer over a period of time also watched other lesser used areas of the trail system for potential victims as well, and that the Monon Bridge just happened to be the location where he took the opportunity to attack the teens.

A few photos, several of other parts of the trail that appear to be equally isolated to the High Bridge portion.
Delphi Historic Trails Photos | TrailLink

It wouldn’t seem to me it was a sure thing two teens would happen to walk on the bridge on Feb 13/17 with nobody anywhere nearby. LE has never mentioned anything about possible multiple sightings of the suspect on prior days, if he was stalking the bridge area although that may indeed have occurred.

But I think the killer’s odds of finding a victim might increase if more than one location was watched and I can only compare it to fishing. That comparison indeed is rather crass, to compare a murderer to a fisherman but it’s the best example I can think of. It may apply to hunting as well, of which I know nothing about. In order to increase the chance of a good catch, most fisherman usually have a few favourite fishing spots along a river, not only one. If one location isn’t getting any bites, he’ll move on to another. This is why I wonder if the killer chose to seek innocent victims on the trail system, but not necessarily only at the area of the bridge.

JMO

I agree re: the fisherman or sightseer angle. I can picture somebody with a sick fantasy such as this scouting out different places, and then when he finds one that might be suitable obsesses over it, masters the terrain, etc.

IMO BG picked the time of year, in this case, too. The place and time of year he chose to strike are critical elements in the case. Who would think to strike in northern IN during Winter, and who would be comfortable doing so? Even during a mild Winter such as the one we had in 2017? I've heard of virtually no cases over how many decades where people were murdered here in the Great Lakes Basin during Winter time while out hiking a rural trail.

JMO

 

[Yemelyan]

Snipped by me for focus.

The precipitating factor for any attack , is opportunity.
It may sound small, but that is what needs to be present in order for an attack to take place.

This is my opinion.

This is overly simplistic, IMO.

As previously noted on these threads, this type of offender is always on the lookout for opportunity as he moves within his usual daily activities. If these men were to offend every time the opportunity arose, or if opportunity were "all that is necessary," murders like Dephi would not be the relatively rare type of crime that they in fact are.

So, it's not just opportunity. Offenders are instead relying on a sometimes complex internal calculation involving opportunity, yes, but also victim characteristics including vulnerability, and internal or external stressors. These behavioral patterns do exist and that's why entities like the FBI's National Center for the Analysis of Violent Crime exist to provide operational support to local law enforcement for unusual crimes like Delphi as well as for anti-terrorism measures.

 

[MistyWaters]

I’m late into the discussion of the timing of the missing persons report but it’s also possible it began with Libby’s grandfather’s attempts to determine where the girls were through the tracking of her cellphone. In one if the interviews he mentioned he personally knew one of the police officers and had contacted him, perhaps for advice or to determine if LE was aware of other possible information such as accidents involving unidentified teens etc, so it would make sense if that officer strongly encouraged him to file a missing persons report at that time.

So I think the report wasn’t filed because the families were deeply panicked or desperately frantic, more so because of the benefit of LEs assistance in their search to help find the girls. It clearly is a close-knit community because in other places I’d be surprised if LE would even bat an eye at a report of two teens gone missing for only a couple of hours. JMO