Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #125

[SMK777]

I think he has been interviewed and dismissed early on. I think it would be beneficial to review all those interviewed early on with perhaps a slightly different grid/rating system. He is likely in that pile, and sitting all cosy like; seemingly with not a care in the world.

I was thinking about what this Perp would be like, and a recollection came to mind. Several years ago I stopped by a co-workers house to drop something off. At that time, she was probably in her late 40's and had her brother living at her home. He was early/mid forties. I thought that was weird, and I got a weird feeling when I met him. (Thank you for instinct God). He had a flat affect, and seemed to be processing at a different/low frequency like a chronic alcoholic, drug user, or someone with mild-moderate brain damage.

He seemed like a bum, and a weird one at that. I chalked up his living at his sisters likely due to the appearance of being seemingly useless, and needing a place to live. Something kept bothering me about him, and it turned out that instinct was well placed. He was a RSO, and had done prison time for crime against a minor under 14.

This is how I imagine this Perp. Some seemingly unremarkable bum living at Mom's or a relatives. That guy you always wonder about....something not quite right. Thats the profile I would be looking for in that long, long list of people interviewed. Yah, that guy.

Amateur opinion and speculation

And if BG is a similar type in a similar situation, it may be that any family members he lives with might still think, well, he wouldn’t do anything that extreme.

 

[rosesfromangels]

And if BG is a similar type in a similar situation, it may be that any family members he lives with might still think, well, he wouldn’t do anything that extreme.

That's exactly right, and likely why there hasn't been an arrest. It would be a very difficult thing to come to grips with, that is for sure. Still, they must.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[Tiger Stripes]

I think he has been interviewed and dismissed early on. I think it would be beneficial to review all those interviewed early on with perhaps a slightly different grid/rating system. He is likely in that pile, and sitting all cosy like; seemingly with not a care in the world.

I was thinking about what this Perp would be like, and a recollection came to mind. Several years ago I stopped by a co-workers house to drop something off. At that time, she was probably in her late 40's and had her brother living at her home. He was early/mid forties. I thought that was weird, and I got a weird feeling when I met him. (Thank you for instinct God). He had a flat affect, and seemed to be processing at a different/low frequency like a chronic alcoholic, drug user, or someone with mild-moderate brain damage.

He seemed like a bum, and a weird one at that. I chalked up his living at his sisters likely due to the appearance of being seemingly useless, and needing a place to live. Something kept bothering me about him, and it turned out that instinct was well placed. He was a RSO, and had done prison time for crime against a minor under 14.

This is how I imagine this Perp. Some seemingly unremarkable bum living at Mom's or a relatives. That guy you always wonder about....something not quite right. Thats the profile I would be looking for in that long, long list of people interviewed. Yah, that guy.

Amateur opinion and speculation

(BBM)
110% agree with this, @rosesfromangels, that the suspect has likely already been interviewed by LE early on -- and...*dismissed*. Have long thought this.

Also love your idea of LE's perhaps "tweaking" their rating/grid system to *re*-interview suspects from early on (key words: "early on"). Just as in other workplaces, there are always people who have lateral or upward transfers, so am wondering if someone who dismissed several key suspects "early on" may no longer be with local LE (not that any of us on WS would know/have access to such information). This is an excellent idea!

Finally, you have been blessed with a well-functioning "hinky meter"! It is unfortunate that many adults who are "all about the facts" sometimes inadvertently turn off their own "hinky meters" when it comes to "creepy types". Could this have happened in *this* case?

Still praying for justice in this case to the full extent of the law.

All JMOO.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

(BBM)
110% agree with this, @rosesfromangels, that the suspect has likely already been interviewed by LE early on -- and...*dismissed*. Have long thought this.

Also love your idea of LE's perhaps "tweaking" their rating/grid system to *re*-interview suspects from early on (key words: "early on"). Just as in other workplaces, there are always people who have lateral or upward transfers, so am wondering if someone who dismissed several key suspects "early on" may no longer be with local LE (not that any of us on WS would know/have access to such information). This is an excellent idea!

Finally, you have been blessed with a well-functioning "hinky meter"! It is unfortunate that many adults who are "all about the facts" sometimes inadvertently turn off their own "hinky meters" when it comes to "creepy types". Could this have happened in *this* case?

Still praying for justice in this case to the full extent of the law.

All JMOO.

This is exactly what this investigation needs, I completely agree.
We definitely need someone with a “hinky-meter” working the case too, because I do think things have been missed. What happened to all those detectives who “just have a gut feeling” about something.

 

[rosesfromangels]

(BBM)
110% agree with this, @rosesfromangels, that the suspect has likely already been interviewed by LE early on -- and...*dismissed*. Have long thought this.

Also love your idea of LE's perhaps "tweaking" their rating/grid system to *re*-interview suspects from early on (key words: "early on"). Just as in other workplaces, there are always people who have lateral or upward transfers, so am wondering if someone who dismissed several key suspects "early on" may no longer be with local LE (not that any of us on WS would know/have access to such information). This is an excellent idea!

Finally, you have been blessed with a well-functioning "hinky meter"! It is unfortunate that many adults who are "all about the facts" sometimes inadvertently turn off their own "hinky meters" when it comes to "creepy types". Could this have happened in *this* case?

Still praying for justice in this case to the full extent of the law.

All JMOO.

I think because of the enormity of the task, the first triage might not have been as detailed as we might think. A triage grid was likely used; a rating system if you will that ended up as a decision tree. Meaning, "if" certain conditions presented themselves, "then" the subject would move in to a bucket for further review. So the initial review was only as good as the "grid" and the reviewers. I would think that the more senior detectives and agency agents would have served as "tier two" reviewers. This would have been a mistake in my amateur opinion. You want those expert specialists in the first review tier; they will detect things that others won't without the specialized training they have received.

So yes, I'd take another look at those that have been dismissed.
Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[Charlot123]

I think because of the enormity of the task, the first triage might not have been as detailed as we might think. A triage grid was likely used; a rating system if you will that ended up as a decision tree. Meaning, "if" certain conditions presented themselves, "then" the subject would move in to a bucket for further review. So the initial review was only as good as the "grid" and the reviewers. I would think that the more senior detectives and agency agents would have served as "tier two" reviewers. This would have been a mistake in my amateur opinion. You want those expert specialists in the first review tier; they will detect things that others won't without the specialized training they have received.

So yes, I'd take another look at those that have been dismissed.
Amateur opinion and speculation

How more time would it take to forget the video, the audio and the sketches?

What if we did not have them?

If we did not, how would it go?

People would look at who was in Delphi that day, comb through all in the vicinity of the bridge, check every step, every phrase.

Internet community would cluster around Delphi and nearby cities; similar MOs would be searched for.

Give or take, LE would have to release some identifying information (e.g., handedness).

The sketches and the video give the reason not to release any additional information.

 

[sunshineray]

But if LE does not know the identity of the Delphi killer, then how can they arrest him? I think LE is just sitting in their offices waiting for a tip someday that will lead them to the person depicted in the second (NBG) sketch. They are also probably going through the thousands of tips they have already received to try and solve this case.

But do they have a POI or anyone they are looking at to try and arrest in the near future? I doubt it.

I think the second sketch(NBG) is not the description of the killer, who I think is an older man with much different facial features than the sketch. So LE could end up waiting for a very long time, if they continue to keep using the second sketch(NBG). The irony in this case is that LE may have led the public down the wrong path. This is all my opinion too.

The only hope for this case now is that either someone previously, before the second sketch was released, sent in a tip that contains information that leads to the identity of the suspect. Or someone in the future completely disregards everything LE has said about this case, sees Liberty German's video, and realizes they know the name of the person in the video.

I know we'll disagree about this but I believe LE does know the identity. AJMO

 

[sunshineray]

Most of the time in cases similar to this, when the suspect is arrested they usually are in their 20's or 30's. As for why LE stated that the new sketch represents the man on the bridge, I do not know. NASA and Disney have not been able to make out the face so I have no idea how they came up with that conclusion.

I think it is just statistics. It is a cold case so they decided to try this last idea of making the killer believe they were on to him and that they have someone who saw him. But is the second sketch(NBG) actually the description of the killer or is it just an eyewitness statement from someone who thinks they saw the killer? That is my opinion.

Releasing that second sketch without being sure the person depicted is actually the man they are looking for could cause them to lose valuable time and effort in going after the real killer(if indeed you agree that the killer is an older person who looks very different from the sketch). If you think he is the young guy depicted by the second sketch, then it is just a matter of time in trying to find this person because the investigation is on the right path. It is your opinion.

Snipped and BBM

"NASA and Disney have not been able to make out the face so I have no idea how they came up with that conclusion."

Because they have a witness to BG's leaving the scene. They have a definite time frame and a very good observance. Perhaps even a description of wet clothes or carrying a bag. That witness either provided the description for the drawing of the NBG sketch or their description matched it very well. AJMO

 

[Clair Louise]

I think he has been interviewed and dismissed early on. I think it would be beneficial to review all those interviewed early on with perhaps a slightly different grid/rating system. He is likely in that pile, and sitting all cosy like; seemingly with not a care in the world.

I was thinking about what this Perp would be like, and a recollection came to mind. Several years ago I stopped by a co-workers house to drop something off. At that time, she was probably in her late 40's and had her brother living at her home. He was early/mid forties. I thought that was weird, and I got a weird feeling when I met him. (Thank you for instinct God). He had a flat affect, and seemed to be processing at a different/low frequency like a chronic alcoholic, drug user, or someone with mild-moderate brain damage.

He seemed like a bum, and a weird one at that. I chalked up his living at his sisters likely due to the appearance of being seemingly useless, and needing a place to live. Something kept bothering me about him, and it turned out that instinct was well placed. He was a RSO, and had done prison time for crime against a minor under 14.

This is how I imagine this Perp. Some seemingly unremarkable bum living at Mom's or a relatives. That guy you always wonder about....something not quite right. Thats the profile I would be looking for in that long, long list of people interviewed. Yah, that guy.

Amateur opinion and speculation

I know someone like that too. Same record and same look about him. The person I know who took her son in, molested her own grandchildren. She told me 'He is still my son'.

 

[SouthernMom]

I found this topic that was brought up on another site to be quite interesting and would like to fly it here to see how others respond.
What types of advancement in technology could break the case?
As in... what technology do we NOT have now that could be introduced tomorrow, or 3 years from now.
There are so many smart people here, what do you think?

DNA is one technology that has improved over the years. Older cases that were once considered cold cases are being solved by improved methods for extracting DNA from evidence. I hope that we will have improved forensic methods for developing images and vocal identification (maybe like a unique voice tone) that will identify the killer. The best evidence of this crime (as far as we know) is the cell phone recording of the crime that was recovered.
The fact that the 2017 Delphi Case and the 2012 Evansdale Case (Elizabeth Collins and Lyric Cook-Morrissey) were likely committed by two separate individuals who were both likely locals (according to both FBI profiles) is both mind-blowing and heartbreaking. I truly do hope some new technology becomes available that can help these precious girls find justice.

 

[SouthernMom]

Deleted by Me, duplicate

 

[somequestions]

Snipped and BBM

"NASA and Disney have not been able to make out the face so I have no idea how they came up with that conclusion."

Because they have a witness to BG's leaving the scene. They have a definite time frame and a very good observance. Perhaps even a description of wet clothes or carrying a bag. That witness either provided the description for the drawing of the NBG sketch or their description matched it very well. AJMO

Maybe the eyewitness did provide some type of very useful information about the person they saw that day? Having wet pants from being in water would certainly be strange in February.

But we just don't know.

I think the main thing that so many people think is that the killer had to have been seen that day by someone. And if you eliminate everyone you can from that list of people that were out there in the Monon High Bridge trail area, what you will be left with is the sketch of the person who murdered Abigail Williams and Liberty German.

But that only works if the killer was seen or remembered by an eyewitness(other than Liberty German).

 

[stattlich1]

Because they have a witness to BG's leaving the scene. They have a definite time frame and a very good observance. AJMO

Can we briefly revisit this, to refresh my memory. This witness. Is there some statement made by LE that shows WHERE this person witnessed the individual thought to be BG?

Or was it a general statement, such as, this witness saw the killer leaving the scene that day, or, leaving the trails that day?

And so I can clear my head on this one, is this witness the one whose description resulted in the NEW sketch of the killer?, albeit, drawn within hours, or days of the murders themselves.

And if yes to that question, why was it totally shelved for two years or so?

Is this where the statement, not verbatim, 'you never thought we would change direction' comes from?

(Also of note, for me, is the idea that this witness must have omitted a hat in the description, and clearly described NBG's hair.)

I know I ask a lot of questions. Sorry. First, it helps my understanding to read your responses, but also, my hope is, it may lead to a missing piece some where.

 

[SMK777]

This is exactly what this investigation needs, I completely agree.
We definitely need someone with a “hinky-meter” working the case too, because I do think things have been missed. What happened to all those detectives who “just have a gut feeling” about something.

Yes, in the past I read about a case where a teen girl went missing and was later found murdered.

Early on in the investigation, her uncle who was staying with the family was interviewed and dismissed.

When the case had gone cold, a new cold case investigator began to rework the case and her ‘hinky meter’ went off when reading about this uncle. Turned out he was indeed the killer and it took the fresh eyes of a cold case detective to see it. Hope the same can salvage the Delphi murders.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

How more time would it take to forget the video, the audio and the sketches?

What if we did not have them?

If we did not, how would it go?

People would look at who was in Delphi that day, comb through all in the vicinity of the bridge, check every step, every phrase.

Internet community would cluster around Delphi and nearby cities; similar MOs would be searched for.

Give or take, LE would have to release some identifying information (e.g., handedness).

The sketches and the video give the reason not to release any additional information.

I’ve often thought the same thing. As amazing and brave as it was for Libby to get video and audio of the killer, would it have been better for the investigation if she had not.
Or if LE had held the video in confidence but released different information to the public, would there be an arrest by now.

 

[rosesfromangels]

When the case had gone cold, a new cold case investigator began to rework the case and her ‘hinky meter’ went off when reading about this uncle. Turned out he was indeed the killer and it took the fresh eyes of a cold case detective to see it. Hope the same can salvage the Delphi murders.

Respectfully snipped.
There is a certain amount of gut instinct/"hinky meter" instinct that can help solve cases, including this one. However, a good detective/investigator will quickly pick up on various signs including speech patterns that are used by Perps. No need to list what those are here - we don't want to alert any nefarious types as to what *not* to say.

Suffice it to say, there are words and patterns of speech that a Perp will use to describe a crime that an innocent person wouldn't. Good investigators hone in on that stuff immediately.

FBI investigators are particularly skilled in this area; typically their profile of the killer ends up being eerily accurate. I always pay particular attention to what these incredibly skilled folks have to share.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[Yemelyan]

This article answers basically all of the new sketch questions:

Delphi murders update 2019: New suspect sketch, video released

It has not been publicly released where the witness saw the person depicted in the sketch. It could have been near the trails and crime scene...or not at all. The only thing we know is that the witness called in something they felt needed to be reported. The sketch was drawn on February 17.

The return to this sketch is almost certainly related to the change in investigative direction and to the "intelligence developed over time" as described by Carter. But they haven't said, not should they, what this direction is.

 

[stattlich1]

This article answers basically all of the new sketch questions:

Delphi murders update 2019: New suspect sketch, video released

After reading that article again, and looking at the NBG sketch, and the actual footage of the man on the bridge....

Is it that the NBG sketch could be from a witness that may have seen the driver of the car at the abandoned CPS building? Could it be that NBG is actually the face of the man on the bridge, and ALSO the man who was driving the car parked there between 1 and 5 the day the girls went missing?

And, does LE have a description of the car? Or do they have the car itself?

Could it be that LE knows the car, knows the driver, knows the man filmed on the bridge that day, knows that he is the killer, knows exactly who he is, but doesn't have the evidence to convict in a court of law?

Might LE have been led astray early on, or might LE have simply discounted NBG for some reason?

Interesting to note, LE, to my knowledge, has never recanted, has never retracted, the belief that NBG is from Delphi, works there, or visits often.

 

[Yemelyan]

After reading that article again, and looking at the NBG sketch, and the actual footage of the man on the bridge....

Is it that the NBG sketch could be from a witness that may have seen the driver of the car at the abandoned CPS building? Could it be that NBG is actually the face of the man on the bridge, and ALSO the man who was driving the car parked there between 1 and 5 the day the girls went missing?

And, does LE have a description of the car? Or do they have the car itself?

Could it be that LE knows the car, knows the driver, knows the man filmed on the bridge that day, knows that he is the killer, knows exactly who he is, but doesn't have the evidence to convict in a court of law?

Might LE have been led astray early on, or might LE have simply discounted NBG for some reason?

Interesting to note, LE, to my knowledge, has never recanted, has never retracted, the belief that NBG is from Delphi, works there, or visits often.

As to your first couple of questions, it's definitely possible.

In the press conference, Carter said they were looking for information on the driver of the vehicle, which made me think they perhaps already had a description of it.

But the task force later clarified (among other things, like the date) that it was a car, and they are looking for information on the car itself as well.

See here:
ISP on Delphi killer: 'Somebody may have already interviewed him'

JMO but I think they do have some information that they believe is accurate about the movements of the car on the day in question. It's possible that they are holding back a description of the car to vet tips coming in about it. If someone says it was a dark colored SUV that they saw, but LE knows it was a white sedan, then they know the tip is probably irrelevant.

 

[Yuletide]

Why then, would LE clearly state that the suspect is younger, and that the new sketch represents the man on the bridge?

Is it that we have difficulty rejecting the first sketch, which we think 'looks' like the man on the bridge Even though so many have argued the photo is so distorted it is difficult to determine any clarity whatsoever. Have we that first sketch ingrained in our minds such that the new sketch, that LE says is the man on the bridge, cannot be believed by us to be so?

What if we reject the first sketch in its entirety, is there no way to look at the new sketch and see a resemblance to the man on the bridge?

Does bridge guy have a hat on? A disguise?

Are we doing a disservice to the case by refusing to believe the new sketch is indeed more representative of the killer in this case, than the old sketch?

Is it a combination of the two sketches?

Trust me, I'm not trying to be confrontational here, it's simply the thoughts that run through my mind.

By the way, I've always thought bridge guy was younger, near baby faced. I've never bought in to the old guy thing.

opinion and speculation

I have always believed he was disguised. To what degree, I do not know. He was familiar with the area, so knew there would be potential witnesses along the pathways. He disguised himself to throw off potential witnesses.