Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #126

[Deleted member 102539]

You and I will have to agree to disagree on this one. While not accepted in polite society and behavior not consistent with an honorable man, seeking entertainment with dates for hire is nothing novel; even if he sought comfort multiple times. That type of "comfort" is vastly different than sexual assault, as alleged in the other case you mentioned, and certainly leagues away from the fate the Delphi girls suffered. I don't find him interesting as it relates to this case.

Amateur opinion and speculation.

bbm
... Only his friendships with "honorable citizens" maybe, IF there are some.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I always thought the sticking point for DN was that LE couldn’t put him at the crime scene on Feb 13th. I wonder if that’s been a problem for a lot of POI in this case. It can’t be too easy proving somebody was on or near a trail system outside a small town. Multiple access, multiple trails, woods, rural countryside surrounding it, a drive-by multilane highway, no stores or shops nearby, probably very few if any security cameras nearby.
Proving someone was not there but somewhere else might be fairly easy. Proving someone was there, kinda hard I would think.

bbm
Maybe, it is the missing ONE puzzle piece.

 

[Boxer]

I always thought the sticking point for DN was that LE couldn’t put him at the crime scene on Feb 13th. I wonder if that’s been a problem for a lot of POI in this case. It can’t be too easy proving somebody was on or near a trail system outside a small town. Multiple access, multiple trails, woods, rural countryside surrounding it, a drive-by multilane highway, no stores or shops nearby, probably very few if any security cameras nearby.
Proving someone was not there but somewhere else might be fairly easy. Proving someone was there, kinda hard I would think.

One way is if the POIs DNA there.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

One way is if the POIs DNA there.

That’s true. I hope they do have the killer’s DNA.

 

[Yemelyan]

One way is if the POIs DNA there.

You know, this is an interesting statement. I follow another case (Holly Piirainen in Massachusetts, there's a thread here on Websleuths in Cold Cases) and investigators found something - the public doesn't know what - at or near the crime scene that was linked to a man named David Pouliot through DNA. However, LE in that case still doesn't know for sure if that's because he was there, or because a close associate of his was there. And from recent news, it sounds like maybe LE is leaning toward the theory that it's due to a close associate (not a relative) of his.

So for Delphi, things could be just as complicated.

 

[Charlot123]

You know, this is an interesting statement. I follow another case (Holly Piirainen in Massachusetts, there's a thread here on Websleuths in Cold Cases) and investigators found something - the public doesn't know what - at or near the crime scene that was linked to a man named David Pouliot through DNA. However, LE in that case still doesn't know for sure if that's because he was there, or because a close associate of his was there. And from recent news, it sounds like maybe LE is leaning toward the theory that it's due to a close associate (not a relative) of his.

So for Delphi, things could be just as complicated.

This.

I would not be surprised, since it appears that the perp had some “kill kit” on him, that he bought pieces of it somewhere around, and maybe this is known to the LE. But again, it is not forbidden to have knives and binds and whatever he used at home, and while it is known he assembled something like it, as long as no one saw him with all that paraphernalia in the vicinity of the MHS, it raises the suspicion, but that is all.

 

[sunshineray]

I've listened to the podcast several times (both of them actually). Ives was actually quite clear that he thought there were things about the scene that were unique to this killer, no semantics involved.

Ives said there was: a lot of physical evidence and it wasn't what you might think; that some if it was odd; and that there were two or possibly three "signatures" that he might expect could come up again. Though he used the term signatures he later backpedaled a bit and said "I'm not an expert on serial killers." He did NOT say there was staging, which the Daily Mail article says he did.

In the Down the Hill podcast, the only mention of staging was when reporters interviewed the FBI profiler Mary Ellen O'Toole to ask her to clarify what Ives is talking about with regard to "signatures." And she, who clarifies that she's NOT part of the Delphi investigation but is speaking generally about signatures and the behavior of offenders who leave them, explains the difference between signatures (such as posing) and staging.

But she never says that she knows staging to have occurred at Delphi or that she suspects it based on what is generally known about the case. She's just educating the audience on what these terms involve.

So if Ives gave a brand new interview to the DM in which he says the scene was staged...okay. That would be incredibly weird IMO as he was so careful otherwise and respectful of the investigators in all his other statements. I don't think this was a new interview though. I think this was creative license on the DM's part done by someone who just cobbled together Ives' quotes from the podcasts (they are used literally word for word like a transcript) and other stuff mentioned in the podcast episode on "Signatures."

Yes I agree. I was just saying that odd and unique are words someone could use to reference a signature without really saying there was signature(s) left at Delphi crime scene.

I think most likely the girl's were posed somehow and maybe even that "marks", for lack of a better words and not getting too gruesome, were made on them or near them.

I must have missed Ives using the word "signatures", I just recalled the "unique facts" and "odd" being said. I don't retain things as well as I used to so thanks for the information, it helps.

 

[sunshineray]

Him trying to get a "date" and getting caught is nothing new or particularly novel. The other guy is accused of assault; that's different.

Editing to add I think we aren't supposed to use names for anyone who has not been named a POI in this case......

Amateur opinion and speculation

Without using any names and in reference to the topic, there were other allegations that involved the topic pertaining to an organized group of what one could only call reprobates...in the greater Delphi area. JMO that if that is indeed fact, the whole topic could indeed be relevant to the murders.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Reminder ....
ISP: Delphi Homicide Investigation
Information can be reported anonymously; however, the Indiana State Police, the FBI, and the Carroll County Sheriff’s Department have announced a reward for information leading to the arrest of the person or persons responsible for the homicides of Liberty German and Abigail Williams. The amount of the reward may be in excess of $200,000 depending upon the value of the information provided.

Law enforcement authorities reserve the right to reject a claim for reward where there has been collusion or criminal involvement. The reward may be apportioned between various persons and/or paid for the arrest of the responsible person(s), as the circumstances fairly dictate.

 

[rosesfromangels]

Without using any names and in reference to the topic, there were other allegations that involved the topic pertaining to an organized group of what one could only call reprobates...in the greater Delphi area. JMO that if that is indeed fact, the whole topic could indeed be relevant to the murders.

okay - I'll stay open minded. If you can elaborate without breaking TOS, please do.

Amateur opinion and speculation

 

[sunshineray]

okay - I'll stay open minded. If you can elaborate without breaking TOS, please do.

Amateur opinion and speculation

I'm sorry, I cannot because of TOS. I did try to message you to no avail.

 

[Falling Down]

^^^^Absolutely everything you said is what I've thought from the beginning as well!! You summed it up beautifully!!

Do you believe that LE knows who it is, and there's just not enough evidence to move forward or do you think they are Stumped? I also believe with everything inside me that the little wood shed on the path was used somehow..

I think there's a possibility that a tip has been shared which could lead to him, but LE have so many tips, and no solid leads at this point, that it's very much up in the air as to BG's identity.

JMO

 

[sunshineray]

I think there's a possibility that a tip has been shared which could lead to him, but LE have so many tips, and no solid leads at this point, that it's very much up in the air as to BG's identity.

JMO

Either up in the air or maybe pinned down to a family.

 

[somequestions]

I think if new investigators came in they wouldn’t treat the investigation the same. Judge Kurtis Fouts in Delphi and former professor at Purdue resigned amidst allegations this summer. I bring him up because I would vet everyone in town again including city employees, law enforcement etc. (Btw start googling what he’s alleged to be involved in)
Sure, it’s easy to say nothings wrong if you don’t know what’s wrong. Well here’s what’s wrong- 2 girls were murdered in a town w less than 5000 people and apparently there are no leads or movement 3+ years later. Different sets of eyeballs sometimes see things differently. As a community you owe it to yourself to take some different approaches.

The sad fact of the matter is that in many investigations numerous detectives have been assigned to a particular case. But that did not solve them. Molly Bish, Tabitha Tuders, John Spira, and Holly Piirainen are some cases to name a few.

The problem is that often times the detectives that are assigned later are at a disadvantage of not having been part of the original investigation "when it happened". So they have to rely on the information collected from the original investigators that worked the case, assuming they are still around.

As for known individuals, I do not think it is anyone who has a name that is currently known including the judge you referred to. I think the killer in this case is someone that is still unknown, not a known person with a name that we have somehow figured out is the killer, but the police just must have missed them. At this point in the investigation, police still have not found the man on the bridge from Liberty German's phone video.

What is happening in Abigail Williams and Liberty German's murder case is not good. The one commonality to the cases I listed above is that they are all old. Each of them is over 10 years old. Two of them are over 20 years old. I do not follow those cases because I see lots of progress. I follow them as a reminder. They remind me that time matters in any investigation.

Or else by the time you change you are starting from way behind.

 

[Deathsgrandaughter]

You know, this is an interesting statement. I follow another case (Holly Piirainen in Massachusetts, there's a thread here on Websleuths in Cold Cases) and investigators found something - the public doesn't know what - at or near the crime scene that was linked to a man named David Pouliot through DNA. However, LE in that case still doesn't know for sure if that's because he was there, or because a close associate of his was there. And from recent news, it sounds like maybe LE is leaning toward the theory that it's due to a close associate (not a relative) of his.

So for Delphi, things could be just as complicated.

That's along the lines of what Anna Williams said on the Jason Hebert Youtube interview when asked about DNA. She talked about the possibility of DNA being there because of an associate rather than the perpetrator. But in very generic terms rather than stating that is the case definitively.
INTERVIEW DNA question just after 29.30

 

[Thelastleg]

You know, this is an interesting statement. I follow another case (Holly Piirainen in Massachusetts, there's a thread here on Websleuths in Cold Cases) and investigators found something - the public doesn't know what - at or near the crime scene that was linked to a man named David Pouliot through DNA. However, LE in that case still doesn't know for sure if that's because he was there, or because a close associate of his was there. And from recent news, it sounds like maybe LE is leaning toward the theory that it's due to a close associate (not a relative) of his.

So for Delphi, things could be just as complicated.

I wasn't familiar with this case so I googled it. LE have not named David Pouliot as a suspect but are trying to find a link. This man is now deceased and cannot defend himself. I don't understand why they have released this information into the public domain when the Delphi case LE are releasing nothing at all. Sorry, I am not expressing my thoughts clearly. Any ideas on this Yemelyan?

 

[sunshineray]

That's along the lines of what Anna Williams said on the Jason Hebert Youtube interview when asked about DNA. She talked about the possibility of DNA being there because of an associate rather than the perpetrator. But in very generic terms rather than stating that is the case definitively.
INTERVIEW DNA question just after 29.30

The way in which AW speaks to the question, do the police have DNA of the perpetrator, certainly does sound like they have wound up with some DNA profile. It could be full or probably partial, that is unknown or maybe just outside of the family's known personal contacts and belonging to a wide gene pool from the area.

Another interesting thing said right before the DNA question was a question about how many people were around that trail area that day. AW says at the least, 50. That seems to confirm what I'd heard also from reading and watching different media. That's a lot of potential witnesses to a whole array of matters.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

The way in which AW speaks to the question, do the police have DNA of the perpetrator, certainly does sound like they have wound up with some DNA profile. It could be full or probably partial, that is unknown or maybe just outside of the family's known personal contacts and belonging to a wide gene pool from the area.

Another interesting thing said right before the DNA question was a question about how many people were around that trail area that day. AW says at the least, 50. That seems to confirm what I'd heard also from reading and watching different media. That's a lot of potential witnesses to a whole array of matters.

Unless unknown DNA was found at the crime scene or on the victims and that DNA was located in a place where only the killer’s DNA might be(sexual assault, under the girls’ fingernails, on a weapon used on the girls, etc) it may not be of much use. Touch DNA, in my opinion, would be useless here.
My point is I guess...I hope they do have DNA, but where they found the DNA needs to indicate it that it belongs without a doubt to whoever attacked the girls and murdered them.

 

[Yemelyan]

I wasn't familiar with this case so I googled it. LE have not named David Pouliot as a suspect but are trying to find a link. This man is now deceased and cannot defend himself. I don't understand why they have released this information into the public domain when the Delphi case LE are releasing nothing at all. Sorry, I am not expressing my thoughts clearly. Any ideas on this Yemelyan?

My opinion on it is, the victim was killed in 1993. David Pouliot died in 2003. They were able to link him to the evidentiary item only much later, around 2012 (and they say it is a highly significant piece of evidence, not just that it has DNA but what the item is). They knew that this meant that either he was at the scene or a close associate was. However, he was dead and they couldn't even ask him who he hung around with in 1993. So they needed the public's help in determining who his close companions were and they had to name him to do that.

This article details this a bit: Investigators are seeking more information about David E. Pouliot of Springfield in connection with the 1993 killing of Holly Piirainen

Edited to say: if Delphi remains unsolved nearly 20 years, I think they might be more forthcoming with names and other evidence as well! But it's just too soon right now to risk prosecution by putting it all out there.

 

[Charlot123]

I am seeing us going through the same questions and patterns. For example, serial killer/not serial killer/pretending to be serial killer. From Delphi/outside, but close to Delphi/spent childhood in Delphi/had a 2-hour trip to MHB because it is really enough to know the area/accidental truck driver. Etc, etc.

I don't know if there is a way to write all these questions/patterns down and feed them to a computer, that would make several models. Different ones. And see where it overlaps with other situations.

Inexperienced as they were, I see that ISP has collected a lot of material. And it was probably fed into a computer. What came out, obviously, was not enough, but I wonder if different scenarios could match some other cases.

Because this is what they do with DNA. "Bad" or "good". I have read about DNA familial searches, it is human work but it uses certain algorithms. Human logic is still more interesting than AI, but computer can search databases of different crime versions.

I once spoke with a guy who was writing computer algorithms for search of SK, for a police department in another country. He said it was, in a way, straightforward, because the mentality of SKs was very rigid. But this situation is somewhat different, even if he is a SK (or a budding one). But really, they need good programmers, it seems, at this stage. MOO

P.S. The search should be not only through found victims, but the disappeared ones, too. For the pre-disappearance similarities. It is possible that this killer does not bury, but hides better when he has the time.