Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #127

[Charlot123]

<modsnip: quoted post was removed>

Lividity, or livor mortis, is the gravitational pooling of blood in the body after death. It starts occurring pretty much as soon as blood circulation ceases. It's a dark reddish purple coloration of the skin that's usually fully evident after about 3-4 hours and fixed after 8-12 hours. I think a lot of people here probably know about rigor mortis, the stiffening of the body after death and how rigor mortis eventually goes away? Livor mortis, or lividity, doesn't go away after it's fixed and even moving the body position will not cause it to disappear after that point.

Lividity is evident not only on the skin but also in the internal organs. So even if injury to the skin or other factors made it hard to see externally, internal examination would reveal it.

The physiological mechanism that causes lividity can be pretty variable among individuals so just by itself, it can't be used to yield an exact time of death. However, it can be an indicator of body positioning. For example, if someone died facedown and was left that way long enough for lividity to occur, then was transported from the murder scene and dumped on his back at a later point in time, the forensic examiner would know that the body had been moved at some point. Lividity would be looked at in conjunction with other characteristics of the crime scene, not by itself, to determine if a body had been moved.

This was all MOO and decidedly not the cliffs notes version - sorry.

This I know. But what suddenly hit me is another thought.

So potentially, the bodies, when found, have to be transported from the CS exactly in the position they were found. Does everyone always adhere to this rule? Or, people might say, out of respect to the deceased, or lacking experience, we moved them when they were put on stretchers/gurneys/whatever was used?

Especially if LM hasn’t been fixed?

 

[drama_farmer]

This I know. But what suddenly hit me is another thought.

So potentially, the bodies, when found, have to be transported from the CS exactly in the position they were found. Does everyone always adhere to this rule? Or, people might say, out of respect to the deceased, or lacking experience, we moved them when they were put on stretchers/gurneys/whatever was used?

Especially if LM hasn’t been fixed?

There's usually a professional from the coroner's/medical examiner's office at the crime scene to document the scene before the victims' bodies are moved IMO

 

[Yemelyan]

This I know. But what suddenly hit me is another thought.

So potentially, the bodies, when found, have to be transported from the CS exactly in the position they were found. Does everyone always adhere to this rule? Or, people might say, out of respect to the deceased, or lacking experience, we moved them when they were put on stretchers/gurneys/whatever was used?

Especially if LM hasn’t been fixed?

Bodies are photographed before they leave the crime scene. Any and all details like lividity would be documented. MOO

Edited to add...to be technical the meaning of "fixed" in terms of lividity does not mean "if you move the body from front to back before livor mortis is fixed, lividity would go away/migrate to the other side." Positional change in the body would not affect it to that degree. The meaning of fixed in this context is whether or not the skin would still blanch when pressure is applied.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

However, he says that after investigators shared with him some of the held back information, it's his opinion that there IS information on the unreleased portion of the Delphi audio that could help identify the killer.

bbm
Very interesting!! Oh, if we would know this information! I believe, I could do something with it and some other sleuthers too.

 

[Charlot123]

bbm
Very interesting!! Oh, if we would know this information! I believe, I could do something with it and some other sleuthers too.

It was said a while ago. Since that time? Nothing. I am beginning to think that the only tangible thing said by DC, "the Shack", was nothing but proselytizing, and served nothing but muddle the waters. I still can not 100% believe that the everything was within the known time frame, and the girls were not moved, and why? Because of "the Shack". In the meantime, no useful information has been released.

 

[Charlot123]

Bodies are photographed before they leave the crime scene. Any and all details like lividity would be documented. MOO

Edited to add...to be technical the meaning of "fixed" in terms of lividity does not mean "if you move the body from front to back before livor mortis is fixed, lividity would go away/migrate to the other side." Positional change in the body would not affect it to that degree. The meaning of fixed in this context is whether or not the skin would still blanch when pressure is applied.

If the LE were so inexperienced that they moved the bodies away given the view of the CS, of to protect the feelings of the relatives, could repositioning the bodies, potentially, make the assessment more complicated?

 

[Yemelyan]

If the LE were so inexperienced that they moved the bodies away given the view of the CS, of to protect the feelings of the relatives, could repositioning the bodies, potentially, make the assessment more complicated?

IMO not for this particular crime.

We don't know exactly when the girls died but I'd think it likely that they were deceased many hours by the time the crime scene was discovered. Long enough for this postmortem change to occur.

Also, IMO there's very little chance that authorities moved these bodies inappropriately without thinking to preserve evidence. LE has said that just looking upon the scene, it was clear that foul play had occurred.

 

[Charlot123]

IMO not for this particular crime.

We don't know exactly when the girls died but I'd think it likely that they were deceased many hours by the time the crime scene was discovered. Long enough for this postmortem change to occur.

Also, IMO there's very little chance that authorities moved these bodies inappropriately without thinking to preserve evidence. LE has said that just looking upon the scene, it was clear that foul play had occurred.

Got it. Thank you.

ETA. If I am not mistaken, in one of the interviews (on the bridge - DC is unafraid of heights, apparently), he said something along the lines of, seeing the scene and feeling nauseated. He did not use that word, but this is how I understood it. I thought, if a seasoned LEO felt this way, must have been really horrifying.

 

[minazoe]

Also I would not put it past this guy to lose a great deal of weight, shave his head, grow a huge beard move to another county but still come into Delphi. Again I would scour the strip clubs and adult bookstores and customer videos.
also bars and restaraunts along the trucking routes.

look..this guy eats out. he probably drinks somewhere or hits a liquor store on the reg. he might like gun stores and places where he can buy devices. he goes to Walmart , Home Depot. He has a regular gas station , 7-11, pizza place.
Mc Donalds, Taco Bell or Steak and Shake.

They have to keep trying.

mOO

 

[heartgoesout]

Something is rotten in the town of Delphi.

This is not the only case that cries, catch the killer. One wonders if ISP is that bad, if DC doesn’t fit as its head, or there is a bigger corruption net that is impossible to lift.

#3

 

[JnRyan]

Also I would not put it past this guy to lose a great deal of weight, shave his head, grow a huge beard move to another county but still come into Delphi. Again I would scour the strip clubs and adult bookstores and customer videos.
also bars and restaraunts along the trucking routes.

look..this guy eats out. he probably drinks somewhere or hits a liquor store on the reg. he might like gun stores and places where he can buy devices. he goes to Walmart , Home Depot. He has a regular gas station , 7-11, pizza place.
Mc Donalds, Taco Bell or Steak and Shake.

They have to keep trying.

mOO

I agree, but since the Covid-19 pandemic masks have either been recommended or mandated. If this guy loses weight, shaves his head and then wears a mask it will be more difficult to make the connection. Add sunglasses and this guy can really hide now.

 

[minazoe]

its true but people may still recognize him as "neighborhood" ...they have to find his long time everyday haunts...a waitress, a bank person or grocery clerk..he lives somewhere... the gas station...

it might be hard to remember him now but I feel he can be found..

good old fashioned detective work.

mOO

 

[Paige Franklin]

All of this is MOO...

I think this was BG’s first kill. My guess is that he was probably planning it for a long time, fantasizing about it and waiting for his opportunity. He’s an organized killer, but he likes to take risks. In the Scene of the Crime podcast, it’s mentioned that the Delphi Trails are a very popular spot for young people, and lots of teens go there to hang out. I think he knew that, and went there that day hoping he would catch a young girl (or 2) on their own. I’m sure he was excited to do something so brazen in the middle of the afternoon. He chose high profile victims who would be reported missing almost immediately. He brought tools (it’s clear to me there’s a gun in his pocket which would be the easiest way to coerce two victims) and IMO there are other items on his body. I’m convinced that he is a hunter/fisher, and has explored these trails extensively.

However, despite all his planning, he was sloppy, and left behind some form of DNA/prints, which makes me think it was his first time. LE have been very clear that there is a distinct “signature” (Former prosecutor in unsolved Delphi murders of two teens says they had signature elements | Daily Mail Online).

I think this is a serial, and he will do it again. JMO - he’s had a significant cooling off period because of the publicity of the case, which poses a threat to him (increased awareness and fear in the area) but also allows him to relive his act. I do *not* think this is a cold case. I think LE is so overwhelmed with tips (literally thousands - renewed when they released the 2nd sketch) that it takes an extensive amount of time to investigate every single one. Unfortunately, he may not be caught until there’s more victims.

IMO the best chance of catching him before he acts again:
(1) investigating previous criminal activity in Delphi or surrounding communities. He didn’t just start with this, there was definitely something leading up to it. Peeping tom, sexual assault or arson incidents, etc.
(2) luring him into reaching out to them and revealing info - a guy like this will definitely be following the investigation (as LE stated in their press conference). He thrives on risk and he may even insert himself into the investigation, comment on news articles or forums (like Israel Keyes supposedly did) or contact LE.
(3) releasing more details which would trigger someone’s memory about their husband, son, brother, etc...and call in a tip.

Like others, he believes he is invincible and it will be his downfall.

I can understand not wanting to share signatures mentioned with the public during an open investigation. Is there some method that LE uses to share this type of info with other LE agencies. It seems it would be important for them to be aware of so they could quickly identify related crimes.

 

[somequestions]

I can not believe this case has gone ice cold. Particularly since the innocents went to the trouble of videotaping and audio recording their murderer.

That is the saddest part about this case. Most people do not have the foresight to do what Liberty German did. I think it is a cold case too, but not so much that it cannot be solved. I think a better term for this case would be a third option, a stalled case.

I think the second sketch does not look anything like video of the man on the bridge. And other people have their opinions about the sketches and video. So no matter what, this case is not going to be solved because someone calls up and says they think their family member is bridge guy. Unless the person admits to being the man on the bridge, LE is going to need some type of solid evidence to make an arrest(DNA, fingerprints, or some other forensic evidence). The sketches and video have produced way too many opinions about description that no jury is going to agree they all see the same thing(in my opinion). Many tips are probably from people who think they have seen this bridge guy.

It is not that much of a surprise this case has gone cold(or stalled). When you put out a 2nd sketch that looks nothing like the person from the bridge video, it is going to be kind of hard to find the person you are looking for. My opinion is that even if this case gets solved, the person arrested will look nothing like the second sketch in age or appearance. I do not think LE is any closer to solving this case than they were on February 14, 2017. The only thing that is probably happening is they are going over and re-going over all the tips that have been submitted over the years hoping that somewhere in there is a tip that will not only lead them to finding this person, but lead them to finding the right person(with DNA or fingerprints or some other forensic evidence).

 

[Charlot123]

Also I would not put it past this guy to lose a great deal of weight, shave his head, grow a huge beard move to another county but still come into Delphi. Again I would scour the strip clubs and adult bookstores and customer videos.
also bars and restaraunts along the trucking routes.

look..this guy eats out. he probably drinks somewhere or hits a liquor store on the reg. he might like gun stores and places where he can buy devices. he goes to Walmart , Home Depot. He has a regular gas station , 7-11, pizza place.
Mc Donalds, Taco Bell or Steak and Shake.

They have to keep trying.

mOO

You know, it might be simply alcohol use, or other substances. The “golden boy” or a talented young man with the future will turn into a disheveled, unattractive, hopeless person. If LE have a very narrow pool of POIs (but still not one person), some of DC’s words might have been hinting at the Delphi’s future hope who exhibited such a downward drift. Some words, “about control”, were meant for someone else.

The more I think about the case, the less I wonder if the attack was really sexual. The way I view one of POIs, I am not sure that he is interested in women in general.

JMO. The killer is a Procyon, a binary star, we see him as such, the voice, the face, the size. No matter how many times I hear that it was one person, the impression is that of observing a binary star, you know? So I still think two people were involved.

 

[Yemelyan]

I can understand not wanting to share signatures mentioned with the public during an open investigation. Is there some method that LE uses to share this type of info with other LE agencies. It seems it would be important for them to be aware of so they could quickly identify related crimes.

Yes, it's called ViCAP and it's been available to LE agencies since about 2008. I don't believe reporting is mandated for all jurisdictions so it's an imperfect system but the concept is exactly what you stated....to share with other agencies in order to quickly identify crimes with similar characteristics, including signatures.

 

[watcher9]

yes, we have a trail murder here that happened in broad daylight on Nov 2nd., off a trail in a park visited by the public on a normal afternoon. Strangled and beaten, while her family was nearby in the park. In case you didn't see it.

Woman Found Dead In Midlothian Meadows Forest Preserve Was Strangled

Midlothian is 2 hours away from Delphi

here is a link to the park where she was murdered.

Midlothian Meadows

here are photos of the park

Photos of Midlothian Meadows - Illinois | AllTrails

Found Deceased - IL - Vanessa Ceja Ramirez, 22, raped and murdered, Midlothian, November 2, 2020

 

[minazoe]

thanks, I'm glad there is a thread on Vanessa Ceja Ramirez.

I was surprised to learn she was some distance from where she was last seen on the trails ..so it can be possible she was taken to another area where her body was found. Her phone also pinging at an odd building.

once a killer gets you into a car , you are in big trouble.

they found articles of her clothing quite a distance from her body.

much of this seems similar. we don't even know if the girls were burned. we know nothing..but please don't walk alone in the woods , even in pairs. there is a big chance we may have several killers operating on the trails..In the
general loop of Indiana, Chicago, area.

mOO

 

[minazoe]

oh and if you think Evansdale too then you might loop in Iowa.

many possibilities...

is he a free wheeler and will attack a single woman or a pair of women?
is he really only interested in young pubescent girls or does he base his victimology on opportunity ?
does he rape sometimes and kill other times?
is he a creeper? peeping etc? he doesn't look fit for second story work but I can see him checking for open windows and doors.
does he drive around and hang out in parking lots and rest areas?
or does he just rotate parks?

you have to wonder how the urge to kill brings the killer to a nature area ..it must be the ability to blend and hide, and
find secluded areas off the trails and an easier chance to disappear quickly and out of sight. easy to hide a body, or pose it with plenty of time to get away.

this is a particular place and way to find a victim..

so frightening. Seriously...mOO

 

[Charlot123]

Yes, it's called ViCAP and it's been available to LE agencies since about 2008. I don't believe reporting is mandated for all jurisdictions so it's an imperfect system but the concept is exactly what you stated....to share with other agencies in order to quickly identify crimes with similar characteristics, including signatures.

Is this system international?

First, people move. It could have been someone with war-related PTSD, coming from a faraway country, and there might have been a cluster of posed bodies with equal signatures there. No one would know.

Or, a series of murders of prostitutes, but not here, let us say, in Thailand, bearing the unmistakable style. Again, none the wiser unless someone compares...

Or, someone emigrates from China, and a similar string happens.

Those mutilated bodies i mentioned (i don't want to mention the city so that people don't watch it, but I can!) - definitely there is a need to be a connection, if only because of copycat cases.

The system needs to be international.

Internet has the ugliest sites, as I found out. And young people are inspired