Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #128

[TL4S]

I think the dogs tracking a scent may have been helpful in trying to determine how this person left the area. That has always been a major question to me. How did the killer leave the Monon High Bridge trail area? I do not mean the crime scene or the trail itself. I mean once he got back to a parking area or a road surrounding the Monon High Bridge trail area, how did he leave?

I know the obvious answer is he left in a car parked somewhere, but where was it parked? I do not think the killer parked at the cemetery if he cannot see it from the crime scene. How can a person be sure there will be two girls walking on the Monon High Bridge trail at the exact moment and in the exact spot he needs them to be in so he can then walk straight back to his car through the woods that he would have to be very familiar with in order to pull this off. Did he really park at a designated trail parking area and walk in to commit this double homicide? It seems hard to believe.

Where did the killer leave their vehicle while they committed the crime?

One scenario I've often pictured is that he saw the girls driving, followed them, saw them dropped off, and drove past to park at the CP lot. If he knew the trail system, it was probably an easy assumption that two teenage girls would head for the bridge, and if nobody else was around, they'd be isolated and cornered.

If at any point before he reached them someone else showed up, all he had to do was turn around and leave. Opportunistic.

It's also why I think he's local to the general area or neighboring towns. What reasons put somebody driving on those rural roads?

 

[ShamelessObserver]

IMO even if it was spontaneous, they could’ve sent a Snapchat or text inviting friends to join them. If I was a friend asking or my mom said no, I would add in how it’s Abby’s first time crossing the bridge as a more important reason I should go.

IMO - and I know I mentioned it before but the suspect could’ve overheard the friend asking to go or decision was up to them (if they are in education and also off that day.) Quite a few families have group family chats (not sure how common it was in 2017) but what if another family member saw the text and knew where to go.

This is a great point. Would explain why BG was there at that specific time.

 

[minazoe]

he was there like BAM, with gun and supplies. mOO

 

[minazoe]

if he had enough supplies like zip ties, ropes etc for 2 victims it points to prior knowledge. imO

 

[Justice101]

book mark

 

[Beachlife926]

Im sorry if it’s off topic but I think I finally made sense of previous remarks on how the suspect could turn out to be a combination of both sketches.

IMO If you look at each sketch individually, they look like completely different people but if you look at them side by side, comparing each feature individually, the features themself are very similar.

The major differences that I noticed were the features that make OBG appear older
ex. Eyelids, deeper smile lines

Please give it a try, I attached a picture of both - side by side.

IMO So possibly, two sketches from two age perspectives but of the same person.
The ‘may appear older than he actually is’ as mentioned on the wanted poster with the YBG sketch, could be covering OBG.

I question why they moved on to the YBG sketch - possible ideas:

• more viable witness statements
• Analysis of crime scene
• DNA analysis

I’m sure you guys have much better ideas and even thought of all this so sorry if I missed it

 

[OverTheRhine]

This states they are not the same person and the first sketch is no longer a POI. Still confusing when I remember someone in LE stating he could look like a combination of the two. Very large oversight IMO.

 

[MistyWaters]

he doesn't necessarily need a car...hitchhiking is possible ...if he already had means of changing his clothes

I think it’d highly unlikely the killer hitchhiked. Aside from the fact it’s illegal in the State of Indiana so he’d attract notice, it’d be impossible for him to determine how long he’d be standing on the side of the road awaiting a ride, how soon the bodies would be discovered and if a police cruiser might spot him. JMO

Indiana
One cannot solicit rides from the roadway unless there is an emergency.
https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/is-it-legal-to-hitchhike-31488

 

[Jax49]

This states they are not the same person and the first sketch is no longer a POI. Still confusing when I remember someone in LE stating he could look like a combination of the two. Very large oversight IMO.

Drives me nuts that LE can't even agree. moo

 

[SMK777]

For those that haven't seen this public service ad in the UK about being aware of cyclists on the road it is a similar exercise. And you have more than 5 seconds.

Answered wrong post, sorry.

 

[SMK777]

Gary Ridgway was a suspect in the Green River Murders in 1983, 18 years before he was arrested in November 2001.
Gary Ridgway - Wikipedia
"Ridgway was arrested in 1982 and 2001 on charges related to prostitution. He became a suspect in the Green River killings in 1983. In 1984, Ridgway passed a polygraph test. On April 7, 1987, police took hair and saliva samples from Ridgway."

I also often wonder if the killer of Abigail and Liberty is in among the vast number of tips LE has received.

I just watched a YouTube about a little girl who was abducted and killed in Canada in the 1980s. Her killer, who was arrested over 10 years later, had originally been interviewed right at the time of the discovery of the crime, but he had an alibi and was dismissed. A decade later, he was found to be the killer, and was tried and convicted of first degree murder.

 

[JnRyan]

I've been compiling a list of details about different serial killers (comparing their history, intelligence, methods, victims, etc.) to compare and contrast. Here are some interesting tidbits I've compiled so far --

Hillside Strangler - Kenneth Bianchi
(killed some of his victims with his older cousin Angelo Buono)

Adopted
Above-average intelligence
Suffered from petite mal seizures as a child which resulted in involuntary urination problems (which caused him a great deal of humiliation)
Troubled from an early age
Impersonated LE to lure victims
4 of his 10 victims were killed in pairs (ages of first pair were 12 & 14)
Hated women (even as a young child)
Worked as a former security guard (blue collar job)

Ted Bundy

Illegitimate child (who may have been fathered by his biological grandfather)
Harbored resentment towards his mother for lying about his parentage
Rejection of his ex-girlfriend also bred resentment for women
Grandfather (who he grew up believing was his father) was violent and abusive
Charismatic; well-liked in school
Feigned injury/disability or impersonated LE to lure victims
Bludgeoned or strangled victims
Explored surroundings to locate safe sites to seize and dispose of victims
Took photos of some of his victims
Heavy drinker / drank before crimes
Returned to the scene of some victims
Suspected of killing an 8-year-old girl when he was 14

Donald "Pee Wee" Gaskins

Illegitimate child
Physically abused by his mother's numerous boyfriends
Below-average intelligence
Bullied at a young age
Sexually exploited as a teenager
Intense hatred of people (especially women)
Worked as a mechanic (blue collar job)
Stabbed, tortured, and raped his victims
Majority of victims were young men and women hitchhikers

Israel Keyes

Raised off the grid by Fundamentalist Christian parents (who later lived among the Amish)
Above-average intelligence
Well-respected within his community
Military history
Strangled victims (which consisted of men and women, young and old)
Targeted strangers in remote locations
Killed far from home and never in the same place twice
Sexually assaulted female victims
Frequently committed arson and bank robbery crimes
Organized and methodical killer
Possessive of victims
Heavy drinker / drank before crimes
Handyman / Construction Worker (blue collar job)

Richard Marc Evonitz

Above-average intelligence
Had feelings of inadequacy and inferiority
Emotionally and physically abused by father
Parents were involved in public affairs
Father drowned his dog in front of him when he was a child and attempted to drown him in the bathtub when he was six
Mother married a convicted murderer and rapist in prison after his parents divorced
Military history
Married two women who were much younger, naïve, and dependent upon him
Fulfilled his sexual fantasies while married and murders stopped
Stalked victims prior to their murder
History of exposing himself and masturbating in public
Sexually assaulted victims
Strangled girls and young women
Drowned some of his victims in the bathtub before disposing of their bodies in a river
Heavy drinker / drank before crimes
Equipment Salesman (blue collar job)

The Green River Killer - Gary Ridgway

Below-average intelligence
Domineering mother who belittled and embarrassed him
Described as friendly but strange by those who knew him
Stabbed a 6-year-old boy when he was 16
Military history
Married three times (demanded sex from them several times a day and often wanted to have sex in public or in the woods)
Sexually assaulted and strangled victims (sometimes with ligatures)
Victims were female and ranged in age of 15-38
Painter (blue collar job)
Frequently sought out prostitutes
Insatiable sexual appetite
Fanatically religious
Returned to crime scenes and engaged in necrophilia (later buried victims to resist this urge)
Purposefully contaminated sites with gum, cigarettes, and written materials belonging to others
Transported two of his victims across state lines to confuse LE

Richard Ramirez

Abusive father
Dropped out of high school in the 9th grade
Suffered a severe head injury at the age of six (which resulted in temporal lobe epilepsy, aggressivity, and hypersexuality)
Older Green Beret cousin showed him pictures of his victims (people he had killed) in Vietnam when he was an adolescent and was present when said cousin shot and killed his wife during a domestic dispute (with the blood splattering on Ramirez's face)
Brother-in-law was a Peeping Tom who regularly took him on his exploits
Diagnosed with schizoid personality disorder
Burglarized homes
Sexually assaulted female victims and killed men and women in a variety of ways (shooting, stabbing, beating)
Left pentagrams / satanic imagery at some of his crime scenes
Mutilated victims post-mortem

Tool Box Killers - Lawrence Bittaker & Roy Norris

LB

Unwanted child placed in an orphanage and later adopted as an infant
Above-average intelligence
Placed in juvenile facility during adolescence after he stole a car, committed a hit and run, and evaded arrest
Adoptive parents disowned him post-juvey
Diagnosed as a borderline psychopath and a highly manipulative individual unable to acknowledge the consequences of his actions
Skilled machinist (blue collar job)

RN

Illegitimate child
Mother was a drug addict
Repeatedly placed in foster care as child
Frequently neglected in foster homes and denied insufficient food and/or clothing
Sexually abused while in the care of a foster family
Military history
Diagnosed with severe schizoid personality
Electrician (blue collar job)

Discovered a shared interest in sexual violence in jail
Regularly discussed plans to assault and murder teenage girls once freed
Sexually assaulted victims
Taunted, strangled, tortured, and mutilated victims while recording the audio of their screams

Good summary. To which I would add that Ted Bundy was very intelligent. Supposedly an IQ of 136, which puts in about the upper 2% of the population.

 

[MistyWaters]

Im sorry if it’s off topic but I think I finally made sense of previous remarks on how the suspect could turn out to be a combination of both sketches.

IMO If you look at each sketch individually, they look like completely different people but if you look at them side by side, comparing each feature individually, the features themself are very similar.

The major differences that I noticed were the features that make OBG appear older
ex. Eyelids, deeper smile lines

Please give it a try, I attached a picture of both - side by side.

IMO So possibly, two sketches from two age perspectives but of the same person.
The ‘may appear older than he actually is’ as mentioned on the wanted poster with the YBG sketch, could be covering OBG.

I question why they moved on to the YBG sketch - possible ideas:

• more viable witness statements
• Analysis of crime scene
• DNA analysis

I’m sure you guys have much better ideas and even thought of all this so sorry if I missed it

I think we’re overly focused on the sketches given the culprit is now almost 4 years older and no doubt his appearance has substantially changed, even if the sketches were originally close to accurate. Considering the sketches are only as good as the witnesses recollect and their ability to communicate that same memory to a sketch artist, as no arrest has yet been made that level of accuracy is still unknown.

Just a thought regarding if it’s possible the sketches are of the same person (aside from the fact LE know where and when the sightings took place) - if one sketch depicts someone who might be 18, it certainly can’t be the same person in another sketch who might be 60 years of age. Otherwise if somebody is unable to distinguish the difference between that age range - an 18 or 60 year old man, I’d highly question the accuracy of any other features in a sketch they were involved in creating. JMO

 

[Charlot123]

I agree that without knowing more about what the specific dogs were trained to do, it's hard to say that they would have definitely been successful in tracking BG. Which is why Leazenby said it's his regret that it wasn't tried as they "maybe," not definitely, could have tracked him.

I think we all remember and most of us have commented on the huge number of cars and personnel parked at the cemetery and at other points of egress from the area. Remember the dogs were arriving well after the girls were found. I'd think it would be very hard for their handlers to say for absolute certain whether the canines were tracking an assailant's scent out of the area vs. that of one of the searchers or LE who had accessed the crime scene previous to the team's arrival. Unless, as I said in a previous post, there were items left behind. Just MOO, though I'd love to hear a verified expert's opinion.

I wonder if there is any dog handler on the forum? "Animals in criminology" is such an amazing area, and even regardless of this case, it would be so interesting to know more.

 

[sandy_80]

I think it’d highly unlikely the killer hitchhiked. Aside from the fact it’s illegal in the State of Indiana so he’d attract notice, it’d be impossible for him to determine how long he’d be standing on the side of the road awaiting a ride, how soon the bodies would be discovered and if a police cruiser might spot him. JMO

Indiana
One cannot solicit rides from the roadway unless there is an emergency.
https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/is-it-legal-to-hitchhike-31488

right
how do you explain this then

We're asking people that were driving down the Hoosier Heartland that might have seen a hitchhiker or someone walking. We're asking people that live in Logansport all the way to Lafayette, if they saw somebody late that afternoon, that evening of Monday the 13th, if they saw somebody walking down the roadway that just did not look like they should be there, or they're just a hitchhiker, we would like to talk to that person," said Sgt. Kim Riley, Indiana State Police.

https://www.wrtv.com/news/crime/saw...g-road-near-delphi-police-want-to-talk-to-you

 

[stattlich1]

I wonder if there is any dog handler on the forum? "Animals in criminology" is such an amazing area, and even regardless of this case, it would be so interesting to know more.

I'm not a canine handler, however, I have a friend that is a world wide recognized veteran search and rescue dog handler and trainer, author of numerous books on related topics.

There are never guarantees when working with a SAR team. Much depends on the skill set of the handler and the handler's relationship with his/her dog. Environmental conditions play a factor. Wind, humidity, etc.

Had LE been able to establish say, whose footprints belonged to who, then it stands to reason a dog could learn the scent of what was thought to be the suspect through the footprint.

Or maybe there was an article of some type, a weapon, or some other doodad dropped at the scene, that a dog could get a scent from.

In my mind, personally, not knowing the scene, but expecting it to have been chaotic, and in addition outdoors, it may have been a difficult task to provide a clear and correct scent for a dog.

On the other hand, if the girls bodies were found by one person, or two, and the area sealed off to others, and the number of people minimized in the area, then the chances of a good scent trail being found would be increased.

Another thing I'll mention. Say the suspect was known to be in a hunting tree stand on the day of the murders. Or known to have been somewhere in the woods that the girls were not, maybe by virtue of footprints, or some dropped item, or some other clue unknown to us. Then that location would almost certainly give a good scent to a dog.

Or, maybe the idea would have been to have the dog lead from the scent trail of that unknown car we've heard so much about. A scent trail from that car would almost surely have been able to be followed by a SAR team.

 

[TTF14]

This states they are not the same person and the first sketch is no longer a POI. Still confusing when I remember someone in LE stating he could look like a combination of the two. Very large oversight IMO.

I'm not even sure I believe them.

I'm also starting to wonder if the second sketch that was released is a result of a Parabon type DNA sketch.

 

[MistyWaters]

right
how do you explain this then

We're asking people that were driving down the Hoosier Heartland that might have seen a hitchhiker or someone walking. We're asking people that live in Logansport all the way to Lafayette, if they saw somebody late that afternoon, that evening of Monday the 13th, if they saw somebody walking down the roadway that just did not look like they should be there, or they're just a hitchhiker, we would like to talk to that person," said Sgt. Kim Riley, Indiana State Police.

https://www.wrtv.com/news/crime/saw...g-road-near-delphi-police-want-to-talk-to-you

What’s to explain? That the killer was known to be walking down the road or hitchhiking has never been stated by LE other than the request for information during those first few days. Wouldn’t that suggest it went nowhere? If an individual was seen walking down the road and later was identified to have no connection to the murders, I don’t think LE would be inclined to reveal that sort of information to the public.

 

[sandy_80]

yes but you said hitchhiking was far fetched...yet it was a possibility that le considered...it might be less risky than parking a car that can be noticed..
idk why it reminds me of how the zodiac exited the stine murder scene...he also was walking away from an alleged bloody murder ..yet he passed the notice of two cops without detection as he walks casually away .

 

[MistyWaters]

yes but you said hitchhiking was far fetched...yet it was a possibility that le considered...it might be less risky than parking a car that can be noticed..
idk why it reminds me of how the zodiac exited the stine murder scene...he also was walking away from an alleged bloody murder ..yet he passed the notice of two cops without detection as he walks casually away .

Yes I think that the killer hitchhiked away from the crime scene in Delphi is highly unlikely and I gave a few reasons why that’s my opinion.