Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #129

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  • #541
Conversely, I think the killer had it all planned out. Not the victims but the scenario. He was no stranger to the bridge or the lay of the land.

moo
My thoughts: if killer had plan to be in this area, then why plan to cross river? Was he hoping to catch his prey before they crossed bridge? He wasn’t wearing muddies was he? Just jeans and what appears to be some type of boot. What a disorganized plan, to cross a river.... he wanted to commit his crime with wet socks and boots and pants? He actually planned it that way? Strange
 
  • #542
Conversely, I think the killer had it all planned out. Not the victims but the scenario. He was no stranger to the bridge or the lay of the land.

moo
My thoughts: if killer had plan to be in this area, then why plan to cross river? Was he hoping to catch his prey before they crossed bridge? He wasn’t wearing muddies was he? Just jeans and what appears to be some type of boot. What a disorganized plan, to cross a river.... he wanted to commit his crime with wet socks and boots and pants? He actually planned it that way? Strange
Welcome to the thread!

If you’re referring to the hat from the first sketch, at the time it was released LE said not to focus on it.

In that first sketch, shown below, detectives say the man’s hat was changed to make his facial features more recognizable.”
https://www.wrtv.com/news/delphi/three-years-later-everything-we-know-about-the-delphi-murders

Otherwise the official media releases indicate he was believed to be wearing a hoodie (which I think has white strings).

The photograph appears to depict a white male wearing blue jeans, a blue coat/jacket, and a hoodie.”
ISP: Delphi Homicide Investigation

I don’t know if I can agree that it’s a hoodie. Looks so much like a hat from the video, not the sketch. I’m thinking the LE isn’t 100 sure.
 
  • #543
My thoughts: if killer had plan to be in this area, then why plan to cross river? Was he hoping to catch his prey before they crossed bridge? He wasn’t wearing muddies was he? Just jeans and what appears to be some type of boot. What a disorganized plan, to cross a river.... he wanted to commit his crime with wet socks and boots and pants? He actually planned it that way? Strange


I don’t know if I can agree that it’s a hoodie. Looks so much like a hat from the video, not the sketch. I’m thinking the LE isn’t 100 sure.

Who said he was all wet? Lol. I do firmly believe he had his scenario all planned out. And, that is my opinion.
Re the hoodie...I am saying the bottom of his hoodie or sweatshirt is sticking out of his coat...please re-read.
 
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  • #544
Hi, new to this thread. Sorry if this is a repeat question, but does anyone know anything about either victim’s real father or stepfather? I haven’t heard one word about either for either girl. Seems odd. Libby was raised by grandparents and had a mother who lived in nearby Kentucky, and Abby was raised by a single mother who according to her obituary was the only one listed at the time of her birth in Sault Sainte Marie Michigan. I thought I did read something about a stepfather for one of them at some point but then could not find it again.

I've read nothing that leads me to think the victims were estranged from their fathers or they are deemed suspects by investigators.

If Abby raised by a single mom, and dad not mentioned in her obit, perhaps he was never part of her life.

Reportedly, Libby's dad was supposed to collect the girls after they were ready to leave the trail and/or bridge.

Their granddaughter and her friend were killed 4 years ago. This is how they want you to help catch the killer - CNN

Feb 13, 2021

But on February 13, 2017, when the two girls set out to hike a local trail on a day off from school, all that small-town charm was ripped away.

When the teens failed to meet Libby's dad that afternoon for a ride home, a massive search began.
 
  • #545
Libby lived with her grandparents and her dad. And, of course her sister.
 
  • #546
Does anyone know what time Libby’s sister dropped the girls off? The car parked at the old abandoned building nearby arrived at 12 noon and left at 5 pm. I assume they got that intel from a security camera. That’s a long, and very specific timeframe. Should tell someone something about a family member, coworker, friend, roommate, classmate, etc. did someone tell someone they were going “hiking” “hunting” “out of town” etc or just go missing during that window of time. Did a coworker or family member take the day off Feb 13. I assume teachers had the day off too. Libby posted to Snapchat. If some older creepy guy was stalking her social media, like a friend or teammates father uncle brother cousin etc or a coach or teacher or some guy from Purdue University, where she also took classes, they might know her and Abby were going to the bridge that day. The girls may have even mentioned it to friends before posting or maybe it was just assumed the a day off from school would result in kids hanging out in that area so the perp got there first and waited for either them specifically or just any kids he could overtake and I assume rape. Something one of the cops said in an interview makes it pretty clear they were raped. He said something like “of course in a case like this there’s going to be a lot of dna.” And maybe the perp killed them bc they might ID him later in such a small town. I assume they did not recognize him on bridge since Libby took his pic.

Also, this was 2017, and even tho it was a small town with supposedly little crime I would never let my kids go walk on any trail alone and I wouldn’t either without some kind of weapon to defend myself even in broad daylight. These are exactly the kinds of places creepers hang out at and have for decades. All kinds of nepharious stuff goes in in parks and trails, drug dealing, etc. I thought everyone knew that. Very surprised they were allowed to go there alone and that they weren’t scared to do so.
 
  • #547
I haven't watched the new show yet. I just listened to Grey's show with the behavior analyst.... who I'm kind of obsessed with! Shes amazing!!!.....

Ok, I got a brand new thought, while re-listening to "The Shack" presser. I am sure this was brought up but I haven't seen it brought up much, so I wanted to mention it. We all know that the "new sketch" presser was kind of heavily weighted in religion and sliver of conscience and what will people think of you? He also said "we know you have told someone what you did". What about confession? A priest? I understand the whole "confidentiality" thing, because I am a counselor. BUT, we also can make our own professional disclosures and confidentiality agreement terms. Mine said that if you disclose that you have committed a crime, I may report the crime. I wonder if the church has a similar disclosure. Or maybe he could go to the police and say what "a person" admitted to, but not give identifying information. But that is a way they know he is 1. local and 2. religious and semi remorseful, or at least worried about his eternal fate.

I always suspected that the river was one of the signatures.
Carter completely read from the statement yet he got the following wrong?
I don't believe he did. Just a few examples.

February 14th for the sighting of the vehicle instead of the 13th?
West side of 300 not the East side for the CPS building?
Abandoned vehicle vs abandoned building?

Nope he looked like he had been run over by a train both figuratively and literally.
Carter read that statement word for word.
Completely planned presser.
 
  • #548
Does anyone know what time Libby’s sister dropped the girls off? The car parked at the old abandoned building nearby arrived at 12 noon and left at 5 pm. I assume they got that intel from a security camera. That’s a long, and very specific timeframe. Should tell someone something about a family member, coworker, friend, roommate, classmate, etc. did someone tell someone they were going “hiking” “hunting” “out of town” etc or just go missing during that window of time. Did a coworker or family member take the day off Feb 13. I assume teachers had the day off too. Libby posted to Snapchat. If some older creepy guy was stalking her social media, like a friend or teammates father uncle brother cousin etc or a coach or teacher or some guy from Purdue University, where she also took classes, they might know her and Abby were going to the bridge that day. The girls may have even mentioned it to friends before posting or maybe it was just assumed the a day off from school would result in kids hanging out in that area so the perp got there first and waited for either them specifically or just any kids he could overtake and I assume rape. Something one of the cops said in an interview makes it pretty clear they were raped. He said something like “of course in a case like this there’s going to be a lot of dna.” And maybe the perp killed them bc they might ID him later in such a small town. I assume they did not recognize him on bridge since Libby took his pic.

Also, this was 2017, and even tho it was a small town with supposedly little crime I would never let my kids go walk on any trail alone and I wouldn’t either without some kind of weapon to defend myself even in broad daylight. These are exactly the kinds of places creepers hang out at and have for decades. All kinds of nepharious stuff goes in in parks and trails, drug dealing, etc. I thought everyone knew that. Very surprised they were allowed to go there alone and that they weren’t scared to do so.

I believe the girls were dropped off around 1 pm. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.
 
  • #549
DBM having trouble quoting
 
  • #550
Also, this was 2017, and even tho it was a small town with supposedly little crime I would never let my kids go walk on any trail alone and I wouldn’t either without some kind of weapon to defend myself even in broad daylight. These are exactly the kinds of places creepers hang out at and have for decades. All kinds of nepharious stuff goes in in parks and trails, drug dealing, etc. I thought everyone knew that. Very surprised they were allowed to go there alone and that they weren’t scared to do so.

(snipped)

I grew up in a town of about 6000 and was Abby & Libby's age in 2010/2011. So comparable population and era. There were a couple well known murders and disappearances within an hour of my town and let me tell you, kids STILL wandered everywhere all the time completely unaccompanied by adults. My mom was always a big worrier (warned us about strangers constantly, bought us pepper spray etc- made us pretty anxious children, honestly) and I was still allowed to ride off on my bike and disappear into the woods for the day with my friends.
Never underestimate the ease that gets built into people after years of living in a small, mostly safe town. And I'm not suggesting it's wrong- or right- to feel that way, either, it's just what happens. How many times have people stressed that stuff like this just doesn't happen in Delphi? For all the unsavory things and people that might have been wandering around, the chance of Abby and Libby running into a monster of this level had to be a billion to none. They'd grown up there, wandering their town and the surrounding areas, and as Anna Williams has said, they were also both at the age where they'd be learning to drive and becoming even more independent soon.

Sorry about the longish post and JMO of course but Abby and Libby, nor their parents, had any reason to be worried that day. My parents wouldn't have been.
 
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  • #551
What do you guys make of the 1. (first sketch) being a middle aged guy with a goatee and longer scraggily hair and an odd cabbies hat, and 2. Bridge Guy being an older fatter guy with a grey goatee and no noticeable hair sticking out, and 3. (Sketch 2.) being a clearly much younger, thinner, clean shaven guy with a full head of curly hair. !?!? Wth is that all about? Why such different depictions of the suspect? Do you think they are looking for 2 people? Why did it take 2 YEARS to release second sketch!? Was the camera from the vehicle at abandoned building analyzed and clearer than Libby’s Snapchat photo? Do they have eyewitnesses from the trail that day? I read somewhere there were many cars parked there that day at the trail head or end or something. But why did it take 2 years to completely change suspect photo? That’s just weird. And no one can tell me both sketches are similar to BG. BG is clearly an old dumpy guy with grey goatee and OLD sounding voice, might even be as old as 70s. Sketch 2 looks like a baby faced teenager. Are they playing games with the public or might there be more than 1 perp involved? TL hinted more than once at there being more than one suspect in an interview I saw today online.
 
  • #552
Who said he was all wet? Lol. I do firmly believe he had his scenario all planned out. And, that is my opinion.
Re the hoodie...I am saying the bottom of his hoodie or sweatshirt is sticking out of his coat...please re-read.
If he crossed the river, I’m assuming he was unable to stay dry. The river, from footage I’ve seen, seems to be semi fast moving and without stepping stones, etc. it would seem one would have to wade through, even ankle/calf deep.
I was referring to the post regarding the hat comment I made and someone said it was determined to be a hoodie not hat. It looks so much like a hat to me. The Fanny pack might be pocket of hoodie sticking out and not a separate entity at all.
 
  • #553
My thoughts: if killer had plan to be in this area, then why plan to cross river? Was he hoping to catch his prey before they crossed bridge? He wasn’t wearing muddies was he? Just jeans and what appears to be some type of boot. What a disorganized plan, to cross a river.... he wanted to commit his crime with wet socks and boots and pants? He actually planned it that way? Strange
What if he had layers on, with muck boots underneath and another set of pants tucked into those boots. You could just peel the top layer of pants off. Moo
 
  • #554
I've read nothing that leads me to think the victims were estranged from their fathers or they are deemed suspects by investigators.

If Abby raised by a single mom, and dad not mentioned in her obit, perhaps he was never part of her life.

Reportedly, Libby's dad was supposed to collect the girls after they were ready to leave the trail and/or bridge.

Their granddaughter and her friend were killed 4 years ago. This is how they want you to help catch the killer - CNN

Feb 13, 2021

But on February 13, 2017, when the two girls set out to hike a local trail on a day off from school, all that small-town charm was ripped away.

When the teens failed to meet Libby's dad that afternoon for a ride home, a massive search began.

Thanks. I don’t think I’ve ever seen him, just the grandfather.
 
  • #555
I believe the girls were dropped off around 1 pm. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

I think it was more like 1:40-1:45 ish from what Kelsi has said in interviews.
 
  • #556
What if he had layers on, with muck boots underneath and another set of pants tucked into those boots. You could just peel the top layer of pants off. Moo
Good point but it would seem you would need something more substantial than muck boots to stay dry wading through that river. Something that wouldn’t necessarily fir under jeans. He does seem layered up though. I guess I go back and forth that he must have been extremely comfortable with the area if he planned on crossing the river and prepped for it but that just seems like an added element to one’s plan that would be a strange one to purposely add... unless he was so determined to get to the other side of the river for whatever reason. His car was close by, he liked the spot best for whatever reason or there was something there that he wanted to get to... or he likes the vantage point, etc. Crossing the river with two girls that you might already have a hard time keeping under your control.... that’s what I find so strange: the carelessness or is it that the plan didn’t go exactly according to plan. Or we still don’t know what his intention was and in my opinion, I think he wanted to get them to a new location in his car that was parked nearby or get them to a building nearby that spot on the other side of the river.
 
  • #557
What do you guys make of the 1. (first sketch) being a middle aged guy with a goatee and longer scraggily hair and an odd cabbies hat, and 2. Bridge Guy being an older fatter guy with a grey goatee and no noticeable hair sticking out, and 3. (Sketch 2.) being a clearly much younger, thinner, clean shaven guy with a full head of curly hair. !?!? Wth is that all about? Why such different depictions of the suspect? Do you think they are looking for 2 people? Why did it take 2 YEARS to release second sketch!? Was the camera from the vehicle at abandoned building analyzed and clearer than Libby’s Snapchat photo? Do they have eyewitnesses from the trail that day? I read somewhere there were many cars parked there that day at the trail head or end or something. But why did it take 2 years to completely change suspect photo? That’s just weird. And no one can tell me both sketches are similar to BG. BG is clearly an old dumpy guy with grey goatee and OLD sounding voice, might even be as old as 70s. Sketch 2 looks like a baby faced teenager. Are they playing games with the public or might there be more than 1 perp involved? TL hinted more than once at there being more than one suspect in an interview I saw today online.[/QUOTE

I would suggest you go back a few threads and read up on all of these questions, the answers are there.
 
  • #558
I started that topic on Reddit and others agreed. HLN absolutely manipulated the perspective at the end of the bridge to fit their preferred theme, and not the reality of the matter. They had the camera one foot above the planks on the far left side of the bridge, aiming slightly across to the right. That perspective and that perspective alone makes the area beyond the bridge look cluttered by trees and all but impassable. After using that angle the narrator said (paraphrased), "Trees have overrun the area beyond the bridge...meaning the trail ends and you have to turn around."

HLN producers knew darn well that if they used a normal view from a cameraman standing up at the end of the bridge, the gaps between trees would be blatantly obvious and especially the big open yard at left, beginning only about 50 yards beyond the bridge. This is the same type of disgusting tactic that Greeno often used early in the case, refusing to show normal angles in his videos while instead determined to jostle everything around and with extreme close ups to make everything seem as scary as possible.

Last year during "Down the Hill" podcast, HLN initially said the girls were trapped at the end of the bridge. Once evidence surfaced the other way they hastily and sloppily edited the finished product. But they still want to leave that impression. Hence the slanted portrayal. For whatever reason everyone seems to think it is a slap at Abby and Libby -- or diminish the hero aspect somewhat -- to matter of factly report that they could have run away into open yards within 10 seconds or less, but decided not to.

Unfortunately the false impression was ingrained early in the case that Libby was scared of Bridge Guy, and that's why she filmed him. Once that has entered the mindset it apparently seems contradictory to turn around and aim the camera at those nearby open yards, ones that were in plain sight in February 2017, as evidenced by Julie Melvin's video three weeks after the murders. When given a choice of protecting the false impression or correctly pointing out that the logical decision was not to dash away, HLN and virtually everyone else desperately clutch the false impression. And that false impression will never be dented until we see the full actual video...with Bridge Guy occupying perhaps 10% of the screen. An aside.

Ironically, it would actually be extremely valuable to film the entirety of the bridge crossing from one foot above the planks. I have emphasized that on many sites. It would remove the treacherous focus and demonstrate that there is plenty of room for a human being, on slightly uneven planks that are troubled and gapped at the outset then considerably more normal and tame near the end.

But let me be the devil's advocate and assume that they were scared, and could escape?

Why would someone choose to cross the creek if there is a private driveway behind, with Abby's house close by?

Because that way is blocked.

Either someone is standing behind, or for some reason they are afraid to run that way.

Why?
 
  • #559
I always suspected that the river was one of the signatures.
Carter completely read from the statement yet he got the following wrong?
I don't believe he did. Just a few examples.

February 14th for the sighting of the vehicle instead of the 13th?
West side of 300 not the East side for the CPS building?
Abandoned vehicle vs abandoned building?

Nope he looked like he had been run over by a train both figuratively and literally.
Carter read that statement word for word.
Completely planned presser.

I watched that presser for the first time today and thought I have never seen an officer so emotional before. He looked like he was about to reach across the room and pummel someone. What do you all make of that? I got the feeling from his expressions, gestures, and demeanor that he knows who did it but can’t prove it, maybe. But then some of his words seemed contra to that idea, like he really has no clue who this is and just wants VERY badly to catch the guy or guys. Maybe he has kids the same age and can relate, or knows the family well or something.

Have they ever come out and said they think for sure it’s only 1 guy? In one interview I saw with TL he seemed to hint at more than one, but I might be wrong.
 
  • #560
I don't remember who asked about a meat processing facility in IA. I don't believe the Evansville and Delphi cases are related, but there are several plants:

Meat Processing Jobs, Employment in Iowa

Bad news: there are tons of such plants. Inside the country and outside, too.
 
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