Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #131

[TL4S]

Much more likely he had a general plan with a handful of priorities, along with accepted range of victim(s). If nothing clicked he would have walked away again.

Yes, I would agree with this. I think he likely had a weapon on him regularly, anyway, and was set to seize an opportunity whenever it presented itself. I also agree he was probably familiar with the trail and bridge, so he knew he could get them isolated on the south end.

I think what I'm unsettled on is whether he had anything specific to the trail planned out, like where to park, where to kill, crossing the creek or not, etc. I'm picturing a guy who would seize an opportunity, no matter the location, if he had the chance. And on that day the opportunity happened to be two girls alone at MHB. Or one of them triggered him. It's all guessing, though.

 

[news buff]

Reading about this case a long time ago the movie, River's Edge came to mind and then I forgot about it. Could others have put things at the site of the murders?

The movie came out in 1986 if anyone is interested.

 

[stattlich1]

The movie came out in 1986 if anyone is interested.

I think all sorts of stuff has gone in the area of MHB over the years. The tree with all the shoes in it is just one thing that comes to mind. Fishing, Hunting, teens smoking weed, drinking, partying. It's the kind of place that would attract those who wish to do illegal things and not get caught. I'm an old country boy, born and raised in rural America. I know the places I used to gravitate to

Plus, I'm an avid metal detectorist. You'd be amazed at the stuff I come upon in remote parts of the woods, in rural America.

I've pondered if BG may have arranged the CS in some manner, prior to the murders.

I've also wondered if he planted false evidence at the scene.

If someone other than the killer planted something at the scene, then they would have had to know about it prior to it's discovery, yes? That would surely be a twist. For someone to have stumbled upon the scene at random, knowing nothing of the killer, or the murders, and plant something there, then leave, IMO, is highly unlikely.

Unless the CS was chosen by BG because it was an area of the woods frequented by others in the past, with items left behind, for whatever speculative reason.

 

[JnRyan]

I fully agree. It's all dependent on how much planning was involved. Bear with me...

My inclination is that if he had planned this out and was waiting for a victim, he would have parked on the gravel road south of the bridge, then either crossed the bridge and entered the trails, or stayed hidden at the south end until somebody crossed. There'd be no creek crossing, fewer chances of him or his vehicle being seen, and plenty of isolated places to lead them sw of the bridge with easy access back to his vehicle.

Parking at the cemetary does make a lot of sense, except for crossing the creek, which I guess I need to let go of because maybe to the killer that was not a big deal.

But here's my dilemma... none of the scenarios that involve him planning the crime really make sense to me. The location is isolated, yes, but how long would he wait around? The perfect opportunity may not have presented itself for days and days? The witnesses apparently saw the men who were the sources of the sketches on the day of the crime, per TL in the Comet Q&A. Did he go unnoticed during his preperation phase and any other days hunting, if he had them?

IDK, these thoughts keep me leaning towards this being an unplanned event. One could argue that if he drove by, heading east, and saw them dropped off, the cemetary would then be a logical parking place even if it was completely opportunistic. I'd still be asking what reason he had to be on 300 rd.

The level of planning. I go back to that as to where he might have parked. If he went there on 13 February with the dedicated purpose of hunting a victim then the cemetery is a good, logical place. My only problem with that scenario is that it is not far from RL's house and would he have seen him cross over onto his property? I like the abandoned CPS building as a place that is away from the usual parking spots. The disadvantage is that it IS seen from 300. I would have to count on the fact that few cars drive past there and I would be hiding in plain sight. With the building there it wouldn't appear to be as conspicuous as it is now.

My previous example of the hunter and the farmer is what I use. The hunter gets up that morning KNOWING his sole objective is to get a deer. His gear is out ready to go, he already knows or has a good idea of where he will set his stand. Planned all the way from the very beginning. Then there is the farmer who goes out to check on his soybean fields. Crops are his primary objective. But while driving down the dirt road to one of the field he sees a buck at the edge of the field. He checks to see if he has his wallet with his license and then looks to see if his 30.30 with a 4X scope is on the rack behind the seat. He gets out, rests the gun on the hood and shoots the buck. The farmer didn't plan to get a deer, but once the situation presents itself he devises a plan, albeit a quick one.

By 'level' of planning, I mean at the top end where this killer has scouted the trail recently and may have even looked unsuccessfully for a victim once or twice in previous 3-12 months. He gets up that morning and says to himself, "I'm off work today, I think I will make a [another?] try today." He knows where he is parking and has his site planned out. At the bottom end of planning, this might be a guy that has imagined doing this and he already knows the trails but he is out for a walk. Then he sees the girls and realizes this might be his opportunity. He probably has to go back to his car and get what he needs. In this case, he may have not been at the cemetery or the CPS building, but at the Freedom Bridge.

The problem with all of this is how this person thinks and he doesn't think like the rest of us.

 

[Tealgrove]

Has anyone considered that crossing the creek was simply a ploy to hide their trail?

Specifically, if dogs were brought out to search, and he had to know that a search would be mounted to find the girls, then the dogs would lose scent at a the creek.

Not that this is a brilliant idea as it would be easy to pick up on the other side, but maybe it wasn't about getting them to a specific spot as opposed to hiding his and their trail.

Just a thought.

 

[TL4S]

The level of planning. I go back to that as to where he might have parked. If he went there on 13 February with the dedicated purpose of hunting a victim then the cemetery is a good, logical place. My only problem with that scenario is that it is not far from RL's house and would he have seen him cross over onto his property? I like the abandoned CPS building as a place that is away from the usual parking spots. The disadvantage is that it IS seen from 300. I would have to count on the fact that few cars drive past there and I would be hiding in plain sight. With the building there it wouldn't appear to be as conspicuous as it is now.

My previous example of the hunter and the farmer is what I use. The hunter gets up that morning KNOWING his sole objective is to get a deer. His gear is out ready to go, he already knows or has a good idea of where he will set his stand. Planned all the way from the very beginning. Then there is the farmer who goes out to check on his soybean fields. Crops are his primary objective. But while driving down the dirt road to one of the field he sees a buck at the edge of the field. He checks to see if he has his wallet with his license and then looks to see if his 30.30 with a 4X scope is on the rack behind the seat. He gets out, rests the gun on the hood and shoots the buck. The farmer didn't plan to get a deer, but once the situation presents itself he devises a plan, albeit a quick one.

By 'level' of planning, I mean at the top end where this killer has scouted the trail recently and may have even looked unsuccessfully for a victim once or twice in previous 3-12 months. He gets up that morning and says to himself, "I'm off work today, I think I will make a [another?] try today." He knows where he is parking and has his sight planned out. At the bottom end of planning, this might be a guy that has imagined doing this and he already knows the trails but he is out for a walk. Then he sees the girls and realizes this might be his opportunity. He probably has to go back to his car and get what he needs. In this case, he may have not been at the cemetery or the CPS building, but at the Freedom Bridge.

The problem with all of this is how this person thinks and he doesn't think like the rest of us.

I really like your example with the deer hunting as explanation. For some reason, I see the killer more as the coyote hunter who always carries a rifle in his truck, just in case, and will shoot any coyote he sees, in anyone's field, regardless permission or laws, simply because he wants to.

I have no logical reasoning to feel this way, but I keep coming back to 300 Rd. I think where he parked tells more about which direction he was driving when he spotted them getting dropped-off than about any plans he had made. JMO

 

[photographer4]

BG may have known that Monday, Feb. 13 was a day off from school. The weather was amazing so school age students would be outside doing stuff like riding bikes.

How their paths crossed at precisely the most inopportune time on that dangerous High Bridge that dreadful day. This raises many coincidences.

He was in and out. There and gone. All three lives converging on the S end of the Bridge at the same time. Then, 2 little bodies left near the edge of the creek in a manner described by the property owner, RL. to the reporter about the CS area, "It was pristine."

With 4 photos we'd want to take.

"It was pristine" - that is an interesting remark that I'd sure like to know more about!

I wonder if RL has any idea of how that area of his property looked in the years, months, weeks, days prior to the murder? I'm NOT accusing him when I ask this, but when was the last time he'd been to that spot (if ever)? Only asking because I wonder if he was able to advise LE as to whether anything had been changed back there from when he last saw the general area? I wonder if he would have even noticed?

I kinda wonder, when LE says there was a lot of physical evidence behind, just maybe not what we'd expect, what they could mean? We also heard LE ask for photos of the area so they could clarify what they had going on out there - this is a quote from a press conference, and was stated by Tobe Leazenby. I cited the conference upthread about 4 days back with this quote.

I think they were confused a bit by what they found at the scene. They probably didn't know if it had always looked that way, or when it turned into whatever / however they found it. If that is the case, if they needed to clarify what they had going on out there, then to me, the area may have been changed in some way by the killer. Which then begs the question, what did he do / change, and when did he do it?

I sure hope LE knows a heck of a lot more than we do!

 

[photographer4]

Yes, I would agree with this. I think he likely had a weapon on him regularly, anyway, and was set to seize an opportunity whenever it presented itself. I also agree he was probably familiar with the trail and bridge, so he knew he could get them isolated on the south end.

I think what I'm unsettled on is whether he had anything specific to the trail planned out, like where to park, where to kill, crossing the creek or not, etc. I'm picturing a guy who would seize an opportunity, no matter the location, if he had the chance. And on that day the opportunity happened to be two girls alone at MHB. Or one of them triggered him. It's all guessing, though.

If he had a deer blind or something set up at the south end of the bridge... he may have just been coming back from wherever he'd been, and he may have happened upon the girls as he crossed back over the bridge. I've wondered, if he reached into a deer blind that was at the end of the trail and simply grabbed whatever weapon he needed at that point. I don't know which way he left via, but IF (BIG IF) he had a deer blind along that south side somewhere, could he have parked along the private road on the south side?

This crime scene must have been a massive one for LE!!

If he did that, then he might have taken the time post mortem to take apart the blind, which might account for why GH had a caller who said that the killer stayed in the area longer than we think? How quickly could one take apart a deer blind anyhow?

No idea really. Just a thought.

 

[sunshineray]

I think all sorts of stuff has gone in the area of MHB over the years. The tree with all the shoes in it is just one thing that comes to mind. Fishing, Hunting, teens smoking weed, drinking, partying. It's the kind of place that would attract those who wish to do illegal things and not get caught. I'm an old country boy, born and raised in rural America. I know the places I used to gravitate to

Plus, I'm an avid metal detectorist. You'd be amazed at the stuff I come upon in remote parts of the woods, in rural America.

I've pondered if BG may have arranged the CS in some manner, prior to the murders.

I've also wondered if he planted false evidence at the scene.

If someone other than the killer planted something at the scene, then they would have had to know about it prior to it's discovery, yes? That would surely be a twist. For someone to have stumbled upon the scene at random, knowing nothing of the killer, or the murders, and plant something there, then leave, IMO, is highly unlikely.

Unless the CS was chosen by BG because it was an area of the woods frequented by others in the past, with items left behind, for whatever speculative reason.

Snipped and BBM
I think all sorts of stuff has gone in the area of MHB over the years. The tree with all the shoes in it is just one thing that comes to mind. Fishing, Hunting, teens smoking weed, drinking, partying.

On that latest HLN show an aerial view of the Monon High Bridge was shown. I'd asked at the time if the area of creek bank right above and close to underneath the bridge was a hang out area. It looked to be set up with a fire pit and stuff to sit on. The girls walking on the bridge would have been in full view of anyone down there.

 

[photographer4]

I think all sorts of stuff has gone in the area of MHB over the years. The tree with all the shoes in it is just one thing that comes to mind. Fishing, Hunting, teens smoking weed, drinking, partying. It's the kind of place that would attract those who wish to do illegal things and not get caught. I'm an old country boy, born and raised in rural America. I know the places I used to gravitate to

Plus, I'm an avid metal detectorist. You'd be amazed at the stuff I come upon in remote parts of the woods, in rural America.

I've pondered if BG may have arranged the CS in some manner, prior to the murders.

I've also wondered if he planted false evidence at the scene.

If someone other than the killer planted something at the scene, then they would have had to know about it prior to it's discovery, yes? That would surely be a twist. For someone to have stumbled upon the scene at random, knowing nothing of the killer, or the murders, and plant something there, then leave, IMO, is highly unlikely.

Unless the CS was chosen by BG because it was an area of the woods frequented by others in the past, with items left behind, for whatever speculative reason.

RBBM:
If he did select the CS based on his knowledge that it had been frequented by other people and was littered with their left behind things, then he may have been thinking ahead a little bit, knowing it might be harder to link him to DNA at the scene, especially if he has no DNA in the system already. He may even have banked on someone else being accused if there was DNA at the scene from someone else out there with a prior record and DNA in the system. Heck, if he knew the area (and I believe he did), then he may have come up with these plans as he crossed the bridge, as he decided to attack the girls.

 

[Pyschsandi]

Yes, I would agree with this. I think he likely had a weapon on him regularly, anyway, and was set to seize an opportunity whenever it presented itself. I also agree he was probably familiar with the trail and bridge, so he knew he could get them isolated on the south end.

I think what I'm unsettled on is whether he had anything specific to the trail planned out, like where to park, where to kill, crossing the creek or not, etc. I'm picturing a guy who would seize an opportunity, no matter the location, if he had the chance. And on that day the opportunity happened to be two girls alone at MHB. Or one of them triggered him. It's all guessing, though.

The hiking trails around the bridge remind me of a place that I like to go hiking. It’s not well known and it’s about 25 miles away. I found it when I first moved to the area and my best friend and I would go once or twice a year to hike. There would be about 30 to fifty people there on some days. The property was huge so we wouldn’t see a lot of people in one area. Just by going a few times, I got to know the area. I think this guy was from a town in the surrounding area that got to know places to go that were off the beaten path.

 

[Marzipan]

Here's a rewrite of a question I asked earlier. I'll be more to the point and concise: Has there ever been a serial killer who was also known to be very funny, perhaps known as having a great sense of humor, maybe even a comedian or someone who could have been a comedian or funny entertainer?

 

[TL4S]

If he had a deer blind or something set up at the south end of the bridge... he may have just been coming back from wherever he'd been, and he may have happened upon the girls as he crossed back over the bridge. I've wondered, if he reached into a deer blind that was at the end of the trail and simply grabbed whatever weapon he needed at that point. I don't know which way he left via, but IF (BIG IF) he had a deer blind along that south side somewhere, could he have parked along the private road on the south side?

This crime scene must have been a massive one for LE!!

If he did that, then he might have taken the time post mortem to take apart the blind, which might account for why GH had a caller who said that the killer stayed in the area longer than we think? How quickly could one take apart a deer blind anyhow?

No idea really. Just a thought.

Deer season was over by February, and turkey wasn't open yet. Not that he couldn't have been hunting illegally...

Rabbit was open, and trapping was open. I've often wondered if perhaps he was trapping creek front property along 300 rd., which is why he was there. Then he'd have had a legitimate reason to have a firearm on him that day.

 

[photographer4]

Has anyone considered that crossing the creek was simply a ploy to hide their trail?

Specifically, if dogs were brought out to search, and he had to know that a search would be mounted to find the girls, then the dogs would lose scent at a the creek.

Not that this is a brilliant idea as it would be easy to pick up on the other side, but maybe it wasn't about getting them to a specific spot as opposed to hiding his and their trail.

Just a thought.

I briefly considered it, but then it dawned on me that the dogs would pick up scent cones on the other side of the creek and probably just take their handlers through the water to the other side. Apparently if someone gets wet during a search, it makes them even easier for the dogs to find according to some google searches I've just done...

 

[photographer4]

Here's a rewrite of a question I asked earlier. I'll be more to the point and concise: Has there ever been a serial killer who was also known to be very funny, perhaps known as having a great sense of humor, maybe even a comedian or someone who could have been a comedian or funny entertainer?

Ted Bundy was said to be very smart, and very charming. Don't know if he was considered funny though. Why do you ask?

 

[photographer4]

Deer season was over by February, and turkey wasn't open yet. Not that he couldn't have been hunting illegally...

Rabbit was open, and trapping was open. I've often wondered if perhaps he was trapping creek front property along 300 rd., which is why he was there. Then he'd have had a legitimate reason to have a firearm on him that day.

Ok, I get that about hunting season - but could he still have had a blind up that maybe he went there that day to take down anyhow? Just a thought

 

[Pyschsandi]

Ted Bundy was said to be very smart, and very charming. Don't know if he was considered funny though. Why do you ask?

Bundy looked and acted very normal so no one suspected him. Many times when we think about someone who could do something so horrible, we tend to think that they look or act crazy. There are normally signs they can do something this bad, but only to people that are very close to them. To the rest of the world the guy seems normal and usually very likable.

 

[Marzipan]

Ted Bundy was said to be very smart, and very charming. Don't know if he was considered funny though. Why do you ask?

I'm not thinking about any particular person. I don't know a lot about serial killers and personality traits. I should read some of the books that have been recommended here, or watch some documentaries. I just want to understand more about any traits that can or cannot go along with someone who can commit these extremely violent crimes. I know very hilariously ironic senses of humor can go along with people who have had a hard life. But somehow I cannot see a serial killer as being someone who can crack people up laughing. Just curious, I guess.

 

[Charlot123]

I'm not thinking about any particular person. I don't know a lot about serial killers and personality traits. I should read some of the books that have been recommended here, or watch some documentaries. I just want to understand more about any traits that can or cannot go along with someone who can commit these extremely violent crimes. I know very hilariously ironic senses of humor can go along with people who have had a hard life. But somehow I cannot see a serial killer as being someone who can crack people up laughing. Just curious, I guess.

I think the distribution of such traits would be statistical in SK. Great sense of humor goes with well-developed language, when people see puns, and unusual associations of words. This is what we perceive as “hilarious, dry humor”. I’d associate it with being able to learn languages, having A in language arts in school. It is a rather rare trait, being hilariously funny. JMO.

But thinking of it - I wonder how easy would it be for a very funny person to mimic accents?

ETA: this guy Foxworthy with “redneck humor” was not my favorite, but his “redneck vocabulary” could have been made only by the person with the ability to “feel” the language.

 

[Pyschsandi]

Here's a rewrite of a question I asked earlier. I'll be more to the point and concise: Has there ever been a serial killer who was also known to be very funny, perhaps known as having a great sense of humor, maybe even a comedian or someone who could have been a comedian or funny entertainer?

John Wayne gacy is known to be the killer clown.