Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #131

[news buff]

For those who still insist that the newer sketch of BG could not be right because the video stills show a much older man, the current case of the mass shooting at the grocery store in Boulder shows how pictures of someone can be deceptive in determining age. Many have been shocked that the Boulder killer, who appears much older in the initial picture, turned out to be only 21. Even LE described him as a "middle age male" when they first put out a description.

The picture at the top of the article is the first the public saw.

Boulder shooting suspect: Ahmad Al Aliwi Alissa charged with 10 counts of first-degree murder

A balding 21 year old was surprising.

 

[TL4S]

I know it's not something that is going to really help the Delphi case (assuming it's a one off killer and not serial), but I would love to read the profile(s) that the GBI and FBI classes have developed. I can only assume that with their skills they have some very intriguing ideas. Next to justice for Abby and Libby, I hope this case is someday solved just so that we can find out what was causing capable agencies such trouble.

I've always thought we might have gotten a taste of the FBI profile during the April '19 PC. The "we know this is about control" and "a little bit of conscience left" and "you want to know what we know" type talk, DC appealing to to killer and/or witness directly, plus the choice to go with the younger sketch and description, all felt like maybe guided by the profile. IMO

 

[TL4S]

Lately I've had two issues at the forefront of my mind regarding Delphi.

First, regarding BG's blue jacket. TL fielded a question in the second part (IIRC, perhaps it was part one however) of the Q & A with the Comet regarding the blue jacket. Paraphrasing, TL said that they have had many jackets turned in but not THE blue jacket. This leads to believe they have some way of identifying said jacket if it were to surface. So what could realistically allow LE to have a degree of confidence that they'll know the right jacket? Do they believe the jacket to have forensic evidence on it (i.e. blood) that would link it? Was a piece of the jacket torn off during a struggle and recovered at the scene (thus they're looking for a jacket that is uniquely damaged)? Perhaps there are more identifying markers on it that LE knows due to seeing the entire video? Would love to hear thoughts on the jacket and ways that LE could feel confident they'll know it when they/if they see it.

As a sidenote: I often wonder if once BG was alerted to having been filmed on the bridge if all the clothes we see him wearing have long since been destroyed.

Second, and I am not bringing DN up in terms of a POI so stick with me for a second. We know that LE sent investigators to Colorado to meet with and try to obtain a DNA sample (to my knowledge, if I am wrong please lmk) from DN pretty quickly upon his arrest. They eventually ruled him out as a POI for Delphi but it begs the question for me...was there something more than DN committing a trail crime that got their attention so quickly? I start to look at aspects of the incident such as threatening people on the trail with a hatchet. Could the type of weapon have been a red flag to Delphi investigators? Was it the type of car he was living out of (perhaps it matched generally a car that was reported near MHB combined with the trail setting of the crime? I feel there had to be something slightly more than "this guy committed a crime on a hiking trail" that made LE travel to meet with him. Obviously I could be wrong but I go back to their actions around the DN case and ask myself what could we potentially glean regarding Delphi that investigators saw in Colorado? Personally my mind has a hard time letting go of the type of weapon (a hatchet), I have long wondered if they thought the type of attack AND the weapon used matched Delphi too closely to not go look at. Again, would love to hear thoughts (but please not about DN himself or if he is BG as LE has ruled him out to my knowledge) about what we could possible learn about the Delphi investigation from the reaction to his case/crimes.

I've never completely let go of LE requesting the autopsy of Paul Etter in July '19. LE said his name had come up in tips prior to his final crime, but also said he wasn't a priority as a POI. He's never been brought up since, so likely not the killer, but his actions, timing, and online activity was odd. What could LE have been looking for in an autopsy that might be helpful over a DNA sample? Or is that how they collect DNA in a case like that? IDK.

 

[Ozoner]

Re: a possible similarity or similarities to features of a Colorado crime scene - I have always thought this. There is something about the Colorado crime that was thought to be a possible linkage. (Disproven now of course.)

It may just be that he committed a violent crime on a trail AND had connections to Indiana AND was the correct height and weight. That combination would have been enough for a close look.

 

[Yemelyan]

It may just be that he committed a violent crime on a trail AND had connections to Indiana AND was the correct height and weight. That combination would have been enough for a close look.

And was a sex offender...because I think Delphi was a sexually motivated crime. But I actually think there was a feature of the CO crime scene that seemed to link them and I'm not talking about the hatchet/threatening people, I'm talking about the murder that CO police were considering him for. I've done some research into a couple of things that make me think this. But, I think this feature or features was ultimately decided by investigators to be coincidental as he's apparently no longer a suspect in either one.

 

[St. Anthony2017]

brings me back to..

was BG mentioned by the girls as that 'weird guy" not from earlier on the trail but from earlier maybe at the store or the other day by the school or from ' just around"?

because they didn't know his name or who he was doesn't mean he wasn't checking them out and keeping an eye on them, it's a small town and as some one who blends right in he does not stand out ..but has he been there always? does he live there? does he breeze through?

or did he just go there on a whim..? I just don't think it was just a whim and quick decision because of the things we see in the photograph..lumps and items appear to be stuffed inside his pockets inside the actual jacket, possibly his pants, and possibly around his neck some white cables or cords..and again I still believe he may have a camera rig.

So it doesn't seem like oh I see these here girls and I just happen to have this gun...no he was suited up...so this makes me wonder if when he was seen earlier was he clanking along with all this stuff on him? or...did he have a car where he could retrieve these items once he
got his eye on his quarry?

what if all the stuff in his coat was personal stuff because he had nowhere to live? he had a gun, did he use it? i'm sure they can make out that gun by the outline and have a good idea what type of gun was in that pocket...still hard to track down a gun based on the outline. but they might have spent casings..if he used the gun. could have been a fake gun too.

so they think he then escaped through the woods..where to? he had to go somewhere..so if he did this on a whim then what did he do to get away? if he was homeless maybe he went to another encampment area near there..or some hidden place he was sleeping.. I personally loved our one poi that had been thrown out of his house and was an angry mess sleeping out in the park areas ( kind of temporarily homeless) but he didn't pan out. Also I don't think this is a homeless person because I feel like he was just too neatly out of the picture..

what they say about this crime scene and what they say about the crime is at odds.

how do we have a complex many faceted crime scene with several signatures and a great deal of evidence when they claim this was a crime of opportunity and happened on a whim?
a crime where the stars aligned and this random murder happened.

I don't believe it ...I think there was planning, and a car and a camera involved and I think he went straight home after, cleaned up and watched it unfold on tv.

mOO

Yes and then showed up to search for them and take pictures of the search. There were a lot of media people there including a news helicopter.

 

[Yemelyan]

Speaking of the profile that likely exists, I was researching yesterday and I came back across the "open letter" that BP and MP wrote close to the 4th anniversary of the murders. You can read the letter here: https://www.wrtv.com/news/delphi/he...k-4-years-since-delphi-murders-with-open-plea

What are some thoughts about the letter as an investigative tactic? If you read it, it is very polished in tone and very similar in cadence to the speech given by FBI special agent Greg Massa at one of the early press conferences, when he gave a list of things to watch for in possible POIs, which is the closest thing to a profile we have heard (this was the speech where he said the person may have changed appearance, etc since the murders).

Here are some interesting phrases from the letter:
"We were asked to write a letter to the public" - asked by whom? Was this crafted on the initiative and with input from the FBI?
"Two young girls" - emphasis on young, just like Carter at the April press conference?
"Contact the FBI" - other pleas for tips have listed multiple agencies and ways to submit, this one directs right to the FBI.

I've read other letters to offenders from victims' families (including in Evansdale) and this one seems different.

Just some thoughts.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I've never completely let go of LE requesting the autopsy of Paul Etter in July '19. LE said his name had come up in tips prior to his final crime, but also said he wasn't a priority as a POI. He's never been brought up since, so likely not the killer, but his actions, timing, and online activity was odd. What could LE have been looking for in an autopsy that might be helpful over a DNA sample? Or is that how they collect DNA in a case like that? IDK.

I was hoping maybe Paul Etter was the guy when LE said they wanted his DNA, though the fact he left his last victim alive made me skeptical. I agree with you that hearing nothing for so long pretty much means it didn’t pan out. I kinda think LE wanted his DNA just to tie loose ends on him before they filed it away.

 

[MistyWaters]

Speaking of the profile that likely exists, I was researching yesterday and I came back across the "open letter" that BP and MP wrote close to the 4th anniversary of the murders. You can read the letter here: https://www.wrtv.com/news/delphi/he...k-4-years-since-delphi-murders-with-open-plea

What are some thoughts about the letter as an investigative tactic? If you read it, it is very polished in tone and very similar in cadence to the speech given by FBI special agent Greg Massa at one of the early press conferences, when he gave a list of things to watch for in possible POIs, which is the closest thing to a profile we have heard (this was the speech where he said the person may have changed appearance, etc since the murders).

Here are some interesting phrases from the letter:
"We were asked to write a letter to the public" - asked by whom? Was this crafted on the initiative and with input from the FBI?
"Two young girls" - emphasis on young, just like Carter at the April press conference?
"Contact the FBI" - other pleas for tips have listed multiple agencies and ways to submit, this one directs right to the FBI.

I've read other letters to offenders from victims' families (including in Evansdale) and this one seems different.

Just some thoughts.

This was the profile I was thinking of. However I notice the FBI refers to it as Behavioural Clues.

FBI releases list of behavioral clues to help track down suspect in murders of teens near Indiana trail
The FBI has since released a list of behavioral clues that could help lead investigators to the killer or killers. The agency is asking the public to be on the lookout for anyone who has exhibited the following signs:

• Changes in their daily routines, including modified sleep patterns
• Increased use of alcohol or drugs
• Cleaned or disposed of clothing and / or shoes that might have been worn on Feb. 13
• Missed work or other engagements
• Anxiety, nervousness or irritability
• Excessive attention to the investigation, media coverage or lengthy discussions related to the murders

"On Monday, February 13, the individual or individuals responsible for these crimes may have been absent from work, missed or cancelled appointment or social engagements, or been unavailable or unresponsive during the afternoon period," the FBI explained in a news release. "They may have been a 'no-show' or offered a plausible excuse for their absence or tardiness, such as illness, death in the family, car trouble, etc."....”

 

[Yemelyan]

This was the profile I was thinking of. However I notice the FBI refers to it as Behavioural Clues.

FBI releases list of behavioral clues to help track down suspect in murders of teens near Indiana trail
The FBI has since released a list of behavioral clues that could help lead investigators to the killer or killers. The agency is asking the public to be on the lookout for anyone who has exhibited the following signs:

• Changes in their daily routines, including modified sleep patterns
• Increased use of alcohol or drugs
• Cleaned or disposed of clothing and / or shoes that might have been worn on Feb. 13
• Missed work or other engagements
• Anxiety, nervousness or irritability
• Excessive attention to the investigation, media coverage or lengthy discussions related to the murders

"On Monday, February 13, the individual or individuals responsible for these crimes may have been absent from work, missed or cancelled appointment or social engagements, or been unavailable or unresponsive during the afternoon period," the FBI explained in a news release. "They may have been a 'no-show' or offered a plausible excuse for their absence or tardiness, such as illness, death in the family, car trouble, etc."....”

Yes, I believe these behavioral clues are part of their profile, though I think they were given out because they are general to a lot of murders that fit this pattern, not based on specific evidence that they have. But if you think back to the way the special agent listed these at the press conference, it seems similar to BP and MP's open letter, in a way.

 

[MistyWaters]

Yes, I believe these behavioral clues are part of their profile, though I think they were given out because they are general to a lot of murders that fit this pattern, not based on specific evidence that they have. But if you think back to the way the special agent listed these at the press conference, it seems similar to BP and MP's open letter, in a way.

Yes the letter from MP and BP definitely links with the behaviours:

“If you know someone that may have been in or lived in Indiana four years ago -- ask them to think back. Do they know anyone that started acting different around that time? Someone knows this person, maybe you will reach the person that can identify him.”
https://www.wrtv.com/news/delphi/he...k-4-years-since-delphi-murders-with-open-plea

 

[Wolverbear]

Speaking of the profile that likely exists, I was researching yesterday and I came back across the "open letter" that BP and MP wrote close to the 4th anniversary of the murders. You can read the letter here: https://www.wrtv.com/news/delphi/he...k-4-years-since-delphi-murders-with-open-plea

What are some thoughts about the letter as an investigative tactic? If you read it, it is very polished in tone and very similar in cadence to the speech given by FBI special agent Greg Massa at one of the early press conferences, when he gave a list of things to watch for in possible POIs, which is the closest thing to a profile we have heard (this was the speech where he said the person may have changed appearance, etc since the murders).

Here are some interesting phrases from the letter:
"We were asked to write a letter to the public" - asked by whom? Was this crafted on the initiative and with input from the FBI?
"Two young girls" - emphasis on young, just like Carter at the April press conference?
"Contact the FBI" - other pleas for tips have listed multiple agencies and ways to submit, this one directs right to the FBI.

I've read other letters to offenders from victims' families (including in Evansdale) and this one seems different.

Just some thoughts.

BBM

I do find this curious as I have always leaned towards the “BG didn’t realize they were as young as they were” line of thinking.

I’m going to think over your post and come back with more fleshed out thoughts..you raise some interesting ideas.

 

[MynameisMud]

IMO, for me I always got the feeling it was someone local. The trail and bridge is as we know, a popular area with teens couple this with an unused snowday on a Monday- a local would see this school day off as a perfect opportunity to scout the area for young victims and an awareness that once you cross that bridge you have very little space for escape.There are only two options.

1) Run back across the dangerous bridge and risk falling from a great height.
Or
2) Run into the woods.

I also found it curious and hadn't heard this before - a searcher walking along the creek apparently was using the camera on his phone- the zoom function and noticed the bodies from across the creek. I got this information from the documentary called Down the hill- The Delphi murders which is on YouTube.

Again this is all speculation but the two vastly different sketches, Is there any way that the police would release a false sketch in order to give the murderer a false sense of security in the hopes he might trip up somehow ?

Please if I have said anything wrong or broke the rules in anyway, I can delete if necessary.

 

[Yemelyan]

BBM

I do find this curious as I have always leaned towards the “BG didn’t realize they were as young as they were” line of thinking.

I’m going to think over your post and come back with more fleshed out thoughts..you raise some interesting ideas.

Yes, Carter hammered home that same phrase "what will people close to you think....two YOUNG girls." Obviously we all know what happens to child molesters in jail, this was not about that IMO. I think this is a phrase crafted to get under the offender's skin because it pointed to a "mistake" he made, it made his crime seem less "powerful" because children were targeted. Or, it could cause anyone listening who suspected a loved one to feel shame about not coming forward. IMO

 

[Yemelyan]

Again this is all speculation but the two vastly different sketches, Is there any way that the police would release a false sketch in order to give the murderer a false sense of security in the hopes he might trip up somehow ?
.

Welcome, @MynameisMud, I snipped your post to address just this part. IMO, no, this would not be a strategy used by LE.

Just my thoughts but LE do not usually want to introduce anything known to be false into the public narrative due to preserving the integrity of the investigation for trial.

They can and do lie to POIs and suspects during interrogation but they tend to keep their public messaging narrow. Again, JMO.

 

[TL4S]

Yes, Carter hammered home that same phrase "what will people close to you think....two YOUNG girls." Obviously we all know what happens to child molesters in jail, this was not about that IMO. I think this is a phrase crafted to get under the offender's skin because it pointed to a "mistake" he made, it made his crime seem less "powerful" because children were targeted. Or, it could cause anyone listening who suspected a loved one to feel shame about not coming forward. IMO

I agree. That also felt like a tactic to diminish the killer's "power," just like the "that's not how they are now" comment." JMO

 

[Wolverbear]

Yes, Carter hammered home that same phrase "what will people close to you think....two YOUNG girls." Obviously we all know what happens to child molesters in jail, this was not about that IMO. I think this is a phrase crafted to get under the offender's skin because it pointed to a "mistake" he made, it made his crime seem less "powerful" because children were targeted. Or, it could cause anyone listening who suspected a loved one to feel shame about not coming forward. IMO

I couldn't agree with this more, perfectly stated.

 

[MynameisMud]

Welcome, @MynameisMud, I snipped your post to address just this part. IMO, no, this would not be a strategy used by LE.

Just my thoughts but LE do not usually want to introduce anything known to be false into the public narrative due to preserving the integrity of the investigation for trial.

They can and do lie to POIs and suspects during interrogation but they tend to keep their public messaging narrow. Again, JMO.

Thank you Yemelyan for the welcome and clarifying that bit of information for me it was certainly spinning the cogs in my mind for far too long.

Another bit of speculation from me- I always wondered *if* it was premeditated would the killer perhaps have taken the trail the Sunday in order to hide weapons and ropes in the forest as to not draw any attention or carry bulk on the day of the killings.

I know there are some trail cams along the way, do we know if LE have looked at cams from the Sunday in order to identify If the killer or the BG on video walked the trail on the Sunday?

I'm sorry if my posts are repetitive or my speculations are outright stupid I'm relatively new to the case.

 

[ReadySet]

IMO
Regarding one reason why LE investigated DN, PE and others so thoroughly; imagine a future trial if they hadn't:

Defense: LE had tunnel vision, focused on my client and didn't even investigate any number of other viable suspects!

Defense proceeds to try to cast reasonable doubt by presenting information about other POIs.

And that's another reason why the evidence for the eventual defendant has to be as overwhelming as possible.

IMO I suspect there have been any number of the following conversations between LE and prosecuters office:

LE: Can we make an arrest now?
Prosecuter: Not yet.
LE: Now?
Pros: Not yet.
LE: Now?
Pros: Not yet.

I could be wrong.

 

[Ozoner]

IMO I suspect there have been any number of the following conversations between LE and prosecuters office:

LE: Can we make an arrest now?
Prosecuter: Not yet.
LE: Now?
Pros: Not yet.
LE: Now?
Pros: Not yet.

I could be wrong.

Snipped.

I don't think any of those conversations have taken place because I don't think they've identified a prime suspect.