Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #134

[asyousay]

Has there been a arrest in this case?

 

[mekeritrig]

Is there a press conference this afternoon? If local news reporters are mentioning something, that can be discussed. Any legitimate sources?

Don't get your hopes up over supposed facebook rumors.

 

[Deerrun]

Is there a press conference this afternoon? If local news reporters are mentioning something, that can be discussed. Any legitimate sources?

What makes you ask that?
Eta I see it is a rumor on fb? I googled and saw nothing regarding a presser and I went Delphis page and there was nothing there.

 

[Reasonable & Just]

I think you are spot on.

The in-house crime vs. the outdoors crime doesn't seem inconsistent to me. In one case, he saw his victim while he was at home. In the other case, he saw his victims when he was outdoors. In a moment when he is raging for violence, any victim crossing his path is prey, whether he spotted her from a window or on a park path.

And I do think the desire for violence and physically overpowering the victim are the strongest pull. Yes, it's sexual, but the desire is the violent attack. He's not the grooming type of predator.

jmo

BBM. I agree, and it seeps through in his writing. And that "valentine" reference. Ugh. It's terrifying that there are people like that out there, looking for an outlet.

 

[CrimeAway]

Regarding DNA, here is a rare but interesting phenomenon (that is not necessarily present in this case). Bone marrow transplant can affect DNA testing:

Man who had transplant finds out months later his DNA has changed to that of donor 5,000 miles away

When a DNA Test Says You’re a Younger Man, Who Lives 5,000 Miles Away (Published 2019)

https://customercare.23andme.com/hc...n-I-use-the-23andMe-Personal-Genetic-Service-

ETA: and Chimeras:

3 Human Chimeras That Already Exist

You can't find what you don't know to look for. JMO

 

[Charlot123]

The problem with a "non-secretor" is not that they aren't secreting DNA. Their cells with intact nuclei will still have DNA that can be explored (cheek epithelial cells and leukocytes in saliva, for one example, will still have all the DNA that is needed to develop a DNA profile). It's just that in non-secretors, the genes that should make the specific proteins that denote their A, B, or AB blood type are not being expressed in body fluids.

Before DNA profiling, a matching blood type between suspect and body fluids at a crime scene was considered strong evidence. If LE was stymied from figuring out the blood type of their suspect (due to non-secretor status of A and B proteins), they were lacking important evidence to prove their case.

But now that investigators look at genomic DNA to identify profiles instead of mere blood type, secretor vs. non-secretor status is no longer significant from a forensic standpoint.

All MOO.

“Non-secretors” secrete DNA. DNA is one’s unique code, all live cells have it.

Non-secretors merely do not secrete all blood antigens into the sperm. For example, one’s blood group is
AB and the sperm is A, or B.

I always wondered if it is the case, or indeed, in cases of famous non-secretors, wrong people were convicted, or some of “non-secretors” were merely lab mistakes. We won’t know.

In Chicatilo’s case, it was “reverse” non-secretion, his blood being of type A and sperm - AB.

But I wonder if there was some early mistake of a lab, because there was enough evidence to finally convict him, and he was a SK.

Mistakes happen, too, and I assume, chain of custody of DNA or lab material can be broken, or something can disappear. (I saw a lab mistake being made in front of my eyes, when a test tube with blood was mislabeled)

Relying on criminal evidence so much, we should remember that humans are handling evidence, and humans are error-prone creatures.

 

[Alethea]

Don't get your hopes up over supposed facebook rumors.

Oh, too bad. Someone posted here and I thought maybe they were local.

 

[Charlot123]

Regarding DNA, here is a rare but interesting phenomenon (that is not necessarily present in this case). Bone marrow transplant can affect DNA testing:

Man who had transplant finds out months later his DNA has changed to that of donor 5,000 miles away

When a DNA Test Says You’re a Younger Man, Who Lives 5,000 Miles Away (Published 2019)

https://customercare.23andme.com/hc...n-I-use-the-23andMe-Personal-Genetic-Service-

ETA: and Chimeras:

3 Human Chimeras That Already Exist

You can't find what you don't know to look for. JMO

True, and very interesting, as I once saw a discussion. Man who was on a donor list and was a great match for someone wanted to know the ramifications of him donating his BM - could another person then have a baby with his DNA? (It is highly, highly unlikely, and not because of the DNA, but because of what procedure entails for the recipient).

While in itself BM donation is an interesting issue, we should compare percentages. How high is the chance that a recipient who underwent this procedure would physically become a SK?

If there is a total match with someone’s DNA, bone marrow donation is on the person’s list…

Chimeras, while super interesting, are very rare.

 

[Yemelyan]

“Non-secretors” secrete DNA. DNA is one’s unique code, all live cells have it.

Non-secretors merely do not secrete all blood antigens into the sperm. For example, one’s blood group is
AB and the sperm is A, or B.

I always wondered if it is the case, or indeed, in cases of famous non-secretors, wrong people were convicted, or some of “non-secretors” were merely lab mistakes. We won’t know.

In Chicatilo’s case, it was “reverse” non-secretion, his blood being of type A and sperm - AB.

But I wonder if there was some early mistake of a lab, because there was enough evidence to finally convict him, and he was a SK.

Mistakes happen, too, and I assume, chain of custody of DNA or lab material can be broken, or something can disappear. (I saw a lab mistake being made in front of my eyes, when a test tube with blood was mislabeled)

Relying on criminal evidence so much, we should remember that humans are handling evidence, and humans are error-prone creatures.

1. I see you are agreeing with me that non-secretor vs. secretor status is no longer forensically significant because non-secretors still have DNA in any cells with intact nuclei.

2. There have been confirmed cases of people being wrongly convicted because they were presumed to be non-secretors when they were, in fact, secretors. Luckily LE no longer has to rely on serological analysis. Source: https://www.innocenceproject.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/DNA_Exonerations_Forensic_Science.pdf

3. Your statement that all live cells have DNA is a little misleading unless you're not talking about nuclear DNA, which is where a genetic profile like one used in CODIS would come from. Mature live red blood cells do not have nuclei or mitochondria and mature live cornified cells do not have nuclei (but do have mtDNA which of course is a different thing). When scientists use blood to develop a genetic profile, for example, they are usually using the genetic material found in white blood cells since mature red blood cells shed their nuclei and organelles during differentiation.

 

[Charlot123]

1. I see you are agreeing with me that non-secretor vs. secretor status is no longer forensically significant because non-secretors still have DNA in any cells with intact nuclei.

2. There have been confirmed cases of people being wrongly convicted because they were presumed to be non-secretors when they were, in fact, secretors. Luckily LE no longer has to rely on serological analysis. Source: https://www.innocenceproject.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/DNA_Exonerations_Forensic_Science.pdf

3. Your statement that all live cells have DNA is a little misleading unless you're not talking about nuclear DNA, which is where a genetic profile like one used in CODIS would come from. Mature live red blood cells do not have nuclei or mitochondria and mature live cornified cells do not have nuclei (but do have mtDNA which of course is a different thing). When scientists use blood to develop a genetic profile, for example, they are usually using the genetic material found in white blood cells since mature red blood cells shed their nuclei and organelles during differentiation.

Yes, I forgot about mature erythrocytes. (In blood, there often is a certain percentage of immature ones, though, e.g., in cases of anemia. But you are right, of course)

With hair shafts, I always wondered why recently they were able to extract DNA. I posted that article several times.

I would like it to be discussed, how often it is possible, is it a new breakthrough technology?

Forensics breakthrough: DNA extracted from rootless hair - Genome BC

(About non-secretors, I was always fascinated by Chicatillo’s case as it defied any logic. So I ascribed it to some early lab mistake.)

 

[Charlot123]

BBM. I agree, and it seeps through in his writing. And that "valentine" reference. Ugh. It's terrifying that there are people like that out there, looking for an outlet.

I always wonder - if JC is not a Delphi perp (and I think he is not), how much could this FB and media havoc affect his main case, where he is, undoubtedly, guilty?

 

[Yemelyan]

I always wonder - if JC is not a Delphi perp (and I think he is not), how much could this FB and media havoc affect his main case, where he is, undoubtedly, guilty?

IMO the danger is not so much to the main case he's accused of as they seem to have good evidence there by virtue of acting quickly.

I think the bigger fallout (if he's not BG) is that many people who don't follow news/crime closely will assume that he was also found to be responsible for Delphi and it will have an ultimate result of suppressing interest in the Delphi case. Which could affect its solvability in the long run as people won't be thinking about their family members, what they may have seen, what seems odd in retrospect, or what they know.

 

[musicaljoke]

If the second sketch is from an eyewitness then that means they witnessed him minus a hat?

JBC has big holes in his ears and it appears he has had expanders for a while pre dating the crime with regards to old photos. I noticed normal ears are drawn and I'm not sure if I'm reading too much into that and shouldn't be. It would not be something you could miss noticing imo.

The footage of BG is very blurry but I can't make out JBC face or body shape in a way I can even sort of imagine it. I also know perpetrators like to brag about crimes but I just think all these social media comments from him are just a very warped mind. Don't get me wrong I think he deserves to be locked up for life but I really feel BG is someone that blended in a lot more. Very normal on the surface and has a hidden rage. Really someone you wouldnt expect whereas I feel people that were acquainted with JBC would know he was off. I'd be very happy to be proven wrong and they can solve the case but this right now doesn't feel it for me imo only.

The hat is interesting because men often stick to the same style of hat. From FB photos, JC seems to always wear a dad hat ball cap. BG was wearing a driver hat, or whatever your local term is for such a hat.

But yeah, maybe the guy had seasonal variations.

 

[musicaljoke]

How long does it take for LE to confirm a DNA match?
Days? Weeks? Months?

They are not in a hurry since JC is nicely locked away, so the investigation could take months. The longer we hear nothing, the more likely JC could be BG because they have found nothing to eliminate the possibility of a match. jmo

 

[raja]

Facebook
This photo of his green bike has a pinky purple t-shirt on the handle bars. I noticed in the comments some one pointed out it looks similar to the shirt Libby was wearing on the bridge. I think he could be posting obscure clues in his pictures.

 

[MistyWaters]

Facebook
This photo of his green bike has a pinky purple t-shirt on the handle bars. I noticed in the comments some one pointed out it looks similar to the shirt Libby was wearing on the bridge. I think he could be posting obscure clues in his pictures.

He may’ve been but I don’t think this is one of them. Tie-dyed shirts usually consist of random multi-coloured blobs.

BBM
“She was last seen wearing a tie-dyed shirt with fringe at the bottom, gray sweat pants with unknown black lettering and black Nike shoes.”
https://www.wrtv.com/news/local-new...-missing-after-being-dropped-off-to-go-hiking

Such as this -


Picture of person of interest released by Delphi police | Daily Mail Online

 

[Miigo]

Brian Chadwell

 

[scandinavian girl]

Facebook
This photo of his green bike has a pinky purple t-shirt on the handle bars. I noticed in the comments some one pointed out it looks similar to the shirt Libby was wearing on the bridge. I think he could be posting obscure clues in his pictures.

I think it looks like the same color Abby wore on the bridge.

 

[raja]

He may’ve been but I don’t think this is one of them. Tie-dyed shirts usually consist of random multi-coloured blobs.

BBM
“She was last seen wearing a tie-dyed shirt with fringe at the bottom, gray sweat pants with unknown black lettering and black Nike shoes.”
https://www.wrtv.com/news/local-new...-missing-after-being-dropped-off-to-go-hiking

Such as this -

View attachment 295901
Picture of person of interest released by Delphi police | Daily Mail Online

My mistake I meant Abby. Yes Libby had a tie dyed shirt.

 

[Deerrun]

Off Topic Barry Morphew arrested!