Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #134

[Boxer]

How long does it take for LE to confirm a DNA match?
Days? Weeks? Months?

It is likely that the quality of the sample from the CS was holding them back.
But with person to look at, the matching markers become more meaningful.

 

[insearchoflight]

Forgive my ignorance, but IF sexual assault was involved in the murder of Abby and Libby then wouldn’t they have a significant amount of dna? I tend to believe that the murder of Abby and Libby did not include sexual assault because of Carter’s remarks about there being no “why”. IMO if it was a sexual assault and murder, the “why” is pretty obvious. Plus I don’t think they have significant DNA. Just Moo but this is why I’m leaning towards JBC NOT being BG because his motive is obviously sexual whereas IMO Abby and Libby’s murder was not.

thoughts?

unless the girls were found in water/partially in water where dna from a sexual assault would be compromised?

 

[Becky Starkey]

Forgive my ignorance, but IF sexual assault was involved in the murder of Abby and Libby then wouldn’t they have a significant amount of dna? I tend to believe that the murder of Abby and Libby did not include sexual assault because of Carter’s remarks about there being no “why”. IMO if it was a sexual assault and murder, the “why” is pretty obvious. Plus I don’t think they have significant DNA. Just Moo but this is why I’m leaning towards JBC NOT being BG because his motive is obviously sexual whereas IMO Abby and Libby’s murder was not.

thoughts?

unless the girls were found in water/partially in water where dna from a sexual assault would be compromised?

It could have been a different kind of sexual assault, other than the normal way that people think of as some of the reports I've seen about the 9yr old. I don't recall which one though, but I've only seen info here about this case so it shouldn't be hard to find in the media thread. Trying not to be too graphic.

 

[JDough]

Helpful links found on page one of every thread (always the first post):

Media/Maps/Timelines:

IN - Abigail Williams & Liberty German, Delphi, Media, Maps, Timelines NO DISCUSSION

Image Discussion:

Found Deceased - IN - IMAGE discussion re Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi

Scanner Thread (remember, we cannot discuss information heard on the radio transmissions here on the main thread):

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/threads/liberty-german-and-abigail-williams-scanner-thread.333467/

There are links to each thread, as well as the Rules/Etiquette for posting. Hope this info may be helpful to any new comers (and us old-timers) who need to refresh information, search for an article, etc.

 

[TheSun]

If they didn't release the manner of murder (maybe) because the perpetrator would murder someone else differently, then why did they release the sketch? (That just makes me think the sketch is incorrect)

If they know the manner of murder then why haven't they looked into other cases where the manner of murder is similar, if not the exact same?

Police have said they have 'additional evidence', but they didn't release it (I'm not sure if they released it already) because they didn't want to "compromise any future trial". What does this "compromise any future trial" mean?

Have investigators almost solved this case, but haven't released the details (it just seems likely)?

This is JMO.

 

[Angelcat13]

It seems Chadwell was homeless at times, so I wonder where he was living and whether he was in or out of prison at the time of this April 26, 2014 incident at RL's property.

April 26, 9:49 p.m. – Burglary, 5858W. 300N., Delphi. Ron Logan reported finding a person in his barn who was not authorized to be there. The unidentified person fled the barn prior to police arrival. The suspect was not located. Liggett investigated.

BINGO!! This has been on my mind since they released information about JBC living under a bridge for several days.

 

[Bluebellz]

I have just seen the news about this JBC guy (I’m in the UK) I really think they have found the guy!!!!

 

[Falling Down]

I made a map that combines the topography of the area with a satellite image to give you a sense of where they were found. Cardinal directions are what you would expect, the top is North. The 'body site' isn't precisely known so I included a box that's just my opinion of where they were found.

Great map.

I'll add that the distance from the SE end to the CS would be around 550 feet, give or take. Distance from the NW end to the CS is under 3/8 of a mile, maybe even around 1/4 mile on foot.

 

[Yemelyan]

Forgive my ignorance, but IF sexual assault was involved in the murder of Abby and Libby then wouldn’t they have a significant amount of dna? I tend to believe that the murder of Abby and Libby did not include sexual assault because of Carter’s remarks about there being no “why”. IMO if it was a sexual assault and murder, the “why” is pretty obvious. Plus I don’t think they have significant DNA. Just Moo but this is why I’m leaning towards JBC NOT being BG because his motive is obviously sexual whereas IMO Abby and Libby’s murder was not.

thoughts?

unless the girls were found in water/partially in water where dna from a sexual assault would be compromised?

Bolded by me....

Not necessarily. IMO offenders in sexually motivated murders sometimes do not complete the act that leaves copious DNA. For some, this is because it's the act of killing that provides sexual release, not an act of rape. Others may attempt to destroy DNA evidence or might take items of clothing, etc, away with them that bear this evidence. Physical examination for sexual assault does not always reveal conclusive results, but it doesn't mean it didn't occur.

Even in cases where authorities are sure DNA evidence should have been left behind, it can be very difficult, technically speaking, to separate the female DNA from the male DNA in samples taken from victims' bodies. There are methods of amplifying the male DNA so that the genetic profile of the offender can be isolated from the mixed sample but this is not always straightforward.

All MOO.

 

[SBops]

Forgive my ignorance, but IF sexual assault was involved in the murder of Abby and Libby then wouldn’t they have a significant amount of dna? I tend to believe that the murder of Abby and Libby did not include sexual assault because of Carter’s remarks about there being no “why”. IMO if it was a sexual assault and murder, the “why” is pretty obvious. Plus I don’t think they have significant DNA. Just Moo but this is why I’m leaning towards JBC NOT being BG because his motive is obviously sexual whereas IMO Abby and Libby’s murder was not.

thoughts?

unless the girls were found in water/partially in water where dna from a sexual assault would be compromised?

Sexually motivated does not have to include invasive or penetrative sexual assault.

 

[UnapologeticallyAspie]

Forgive my ignorance, but IF sexual assault was involved in the murder of Abby and Libby then wouldn’t they have a significant amount of dna? I tend to believe that the murder of Abby and Libby did not include sexual assault because of Carter’s remarks about there being no “why”. IMO if it was a sexual assault and murder, the “why” is pretty obvious. Plus I don’t think they have significant DNA. Just Moo but this is why I’m leaning towards JBC NOT being BG because his motive is obviously sexual whereas IMO Abby and Libby’s murder was not.

thoughts?

unless the girls were found in water/partially in water where dna from a sexual assault would be compromised?

ITA. It has been my thought from the beginning that there was no sexual assault. And I can only think of two logical reason as to why. And that would that he could not get physically aroused, which may be the reason as to why they were brutally murdered. Or because he (or she) knew them in some way that the thought of sexually assaulting the girls was repulsive to him (or her). And/or BG is a female, although the likelihood is extremely low, but not out of the question.
mOO
But I’m sure there are many other possible reasons that are unbeknownst to me.

ETA: If it was sexually motivated in some way, perhaps the reason that BG couldn’t “perform” was due to the girls ages/puberty level. But honestly I haven’t a clue. These are just some of my thoughts.
mOO

 

[insearchoflight]

Sexually motivated does not have to include invasive or penetrative sexual assault.

Let me rephrase it a bit..

JBC in his offense against the 9 year old was absolutely violent and invasive. What I’m saying is... if JBC is BG would we not expect similar mode of assault. And if BG did similar to what happened with the 9 year old, wouldn’t obvious DNA be there? And wouldn’t motive be obvious?

this is why I question is JBC the BG? To me, seems motives and modes in each case are different. DOESNT mean it’s not him, just up for discussion.

 

[SBops]

Let me rephrase it a bit..

JBC in his offense against the 9 year old was absolutely violent and invasive. What I’m saying is... if JBC is BG would we not expect similar mode of assault. And if BG did similar to what happened with the 9 year old, wouldn’t obvious DNA be there? And wouldn’t motive be obvious?

this is why I question is JBC the BG? To me, seems motives and modes in each case are different. DOESNT mean it’s not him, just up for discussion.

No, a small nine year old is different than a strong and brave Libby who was willing to fight.

 

[Charlot123]

Forgive my ignorance, but IF sexual assault was involved in the murder of Abby and Libby then wouldn’t they have a significant amount of dna? I tend to believe that the murder of Abby and Libby did not include sexual assault because of Carter’s remarks about there being no “why”. IMO if it was a sexual assault and murder, the “why” is pretty obvious. Plus I don’t think they have significant DNA. Just Moo but this is why I’m leaning towards JBC NOT being BG because his motive is obviously sexual whereas IMO Abby and Libby’s murder was not.

thoughts?

unless the girls were found in water/partially in water where dna from a sexual assault would be compromised?

If it was not a direct contact, but some depraved act in the distance, and the perpetrator had vasectomy, there would be no cells yielded from the CS. The more I read, the more positive I become that the perp was vasectomized.

Here is an article describing rape DNA testing of a vasectomized perpetrator. In 2007, it was hard to get DNA analysed in case of a rape, if the perp. had vasectomy. The article describes quite a novel technique, and is interesting because it amply illustrates the difficulties scientists were facing in rape cases 14 years ago. The tests they came up with were elegant and innovative.

BBC NEWS | Health | Test snares rapists without sperm

Now imagine that BG did not rape. Instead, he killed, left the CS and was hiding somewhere in the bushes, observing the girls. He might have achieved a certain relief, but if he had vasectomy, there was practically no DNA to get from the ground.

JMO.

 

[Falling Down]

Let me rephrase it a bit..

JBC in his offense against the 9 year old was absolutely violent and invasive. What I’m saying is... if JBC is BG would we not expect similar mode of assault. And if BG did similar to what happened with the 9 year old, wouldn’t obvious DNA be there? And wouldn’t motive be obvious?

this is why I question is JBC the BG? To me, seems motives and modes in each case are different. DOESNT mean it’s not him, just up for discussion.

One of the reasons why I don't think he's BG, totally different circumstances and MO.

JMO

 

[TheSun]

If they didn't release the manner of murder (maybe) because the perpetrator would murder someone else differently, then why did they release the sketch? (That just makes me think the sketch is incorrect)

If they know the manner of murder then why haven't they looked into other cases where the manner of murder is similar, if not the exact same?

Police have said they have 'additional evidence', but they didn't release it (I'm not sure if they released it already) because they didn't want to "compromise any future trial". What does this "compromise any future trial" mean?

This is JMO.

If anyone could answer this.

 

[Yellow Rose]

Family of man being eyed by cops over 2017 Delphi railtrack murders speak out | Daily Mail Online

His own brother says he’s fully capable and that he’s the epitome of evil

 

[Questions123]

If the second sketch is from an eyewitness then that means they witnessed him minus a hat?

JBC has big holes in his ears and it appears he has had expanders for a while pre dating the crime with regards to old photos. I noticed normal ears are drawn and I'm not sure if I'm reading too much into that and shouldn't be. It would not be something you could miss noticing imo.

The footage of BG is very blurry but I can't make out JBC face or body shape in a way I can even sort of imagine it. I also know perpetrators like to brag about crimes but I just think all these social media comments from him are just a very warped mind. Don't get me wrong I think he deserves to be locked up for life but I really feel BG is someone that blended in a lot more. Very normal on the surface and has a hidden rage. Really someone you wouldnt expect whereas I feel people that were acquainted with JBC would know he was off. I'd be very happy to be proven wrong and they can solve the case but this right now doesn't feel it for me imo only.

 

[Rosegold68]

You could easily miss the ears

my new colleague has taken his expanders out to work, can’t even tell if you are looking at him face on. The holes sort of crumple in on themselves

 

[raja]

Would it be harder to get a DNA read on a non secretor person?