Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #136

[AC4RD]

This has been said repeatedly, but for some reason they won’t do it.

("It" being release details of the killer's signatures.) Just MHO but the very good reason for that is that police have *vastly* more knowledge and experience in murder signatures, the FBI has a database of them to search and compare, and there isn't much good that could come from it. "Oh, that was one of the signatures? Say, that's the same signature my neighbor Eddie used when he killed those nuns! Maybe this time I should finally report him."

There is, IMO, just no reason for the general public to be informed of all the things that might help LE solve the case and prosecutors get a conviction. And at worst, some morons might use the information unwisely--as in copycat events. MHO only but releasing details isn't going to help anything except some public morbid curiosity. Just MHO.

 

[AC4RD]

There is much talk about releasing more information, but a simple update here would help. The public needs to know if this is still relevant information.

The police investigators need to know if this is relevant, and in what ways. IMO we really don't. Are we going to suddenly recognize the killer because one of us says, "Hey, my neighbor Eddie had a white Rabbit (see footnote) four years ago--it must have been him!"

And the killer might, if it were public knowledge, get rid of the car if he still owns it. Police, in my humble opinion, need to know this but having the general public know it isn't going to help with an arrest or conviction.

Footnote WRT white Rabbits: "Remember what the dormouse said. Feed your head. Feed your head."

 

[MistyWaters]

That question has been asked, and it’s an important one:

How can they have a suspect/strong POI without evidence? And if there is evidence, why not make an arrest?

The only thing I can think of, IF they do have such a person in their sights:

They have enough circumstantial evidence to believe he’s the killer, but not enough to get a conviction in a trial, so they’re waiting for that one last piece of the puzzle, as LE has said.

LE have consistently connected the one piece of the puzzle to the identity of the suspect. They’ve never insinuated they’re lacking evidence even though they know who the killer is. Most if not all homicide investigators would say it’s the evidence which points toward the suspect, not the other way around.

“I believe we are one piece of the puzzle away from figuring out who the individual is," said Carter…”
Delphi murders: A look at key moments after deaths of Abby and Libby

 

[StarryStarryNight]

The police investigators need to know if this is relevant, and in what ways. IMO we really don't. Are we going to suddenly recognize the killer because one of us says, "Hey, my neighbor Eddie had a white Rabbit (see footnote) four years ago--it must have been him!"

And the killer might, if it were public knowledge, get rid of the car if he still owns it. Police, in my humble opinion, need to know this but having the general public know it isn't going to help with an arrest or conviction.

Footnote WRT white Rabbits: "Remember what the dormouse said. Feed your head. Feed your head."

If all the information in this case is only relevant to LE, and they are the only ones who need to know it, then why release the video of BG and ask if anyone recognizes him, why have sketches drawn up and release them to the public, why tell people about the car at CPS and ask for information, and why, in the world, would they constantly be begging someone to call them up and tell them who the killer is? Why not just keep all that to themselves. Just my opinion.

 

[Yemelyan]

LE have consistently connected the one piece of the puzzle to the identity of the suspect. They’ve never insinuated they’re lacking evidence but they know who the killer is.

“I believe we are one piece of the puzzle away from figuring out who the individual is," said Carter…”
Delphi murders: A look at key moments after deaths of Abby and Libby

Agreed, they've never said they lacked evidence. Ives said that there was a lot of physical evidence, evidence that experienced investigators thought would logically lead to an identity, but which, unfortunately, did not. Source: Delphi Murders 3 Signatures: Robert Ives Interview Transcript from 'Down the Hill' Podcast - CrimeLights

Also take a look at this article from about six months after the murders. Here the lead investigator Holeman addresses the state of the evidence:
In addition to the thousands of leads, police have served several warrants and have been following up on DNA evidence found at the scene of the crime.

"The question is: Do we have DNA? Yea, we have DNA. We're just still working on determining what kind of DNA. Is it the victims? Is it the known family members or is it our suspect?" said Holeman.

He said detectives test and compare the DNA almost daily, hoping it leads them to the killer.

"We're still working on that," Holeman said. "We can't say, 'Do we have the suspect's DNA or don't we?' We have plenty of DNA, and we have plenty of testing to do, and it takes a lot of time."

"We have plenty of evidence to convict somebody," said Holeman. "Obviously, the person doesn't want to be found."

Source: Police open up about evidence 6 months after Delphi double homicide

 

[Trebor5591]

I can't say I disagree with any of this. But I've had another thought as to what the "go another direction" statement might mean. And I don't like it and hate to even "voice" it. However, we are here & this is what we do...so, what if LE got caught up in this investigation right after they found the bodies and; they soon realized they had video/audio evidence on the phone, they realized that most people would likely not even be aware of this location - and especially maybnotneven be brave enough to walk across thatbhigh bridge. And they realized that they had been able to obtain some sort of DNA (which they naturally initially *assumed* to belong to the killer. What's more, as they talked to people in the area that day, maybe they also got some limited info from a couple of potential "witnesses" that may have seemed to have credible info. And from that, LE got a little overconfident and thought they could flat out intimidate the killer and basically make a statement that told him, "hey, turn yourself in. We've got darned near everything we need already. Once we get one more minor detail, we're going to come down on you like you won't believe."

And then at some point after that, LE realized the DNA they had may well not have actually come from the killer, the "eyewitness" testimony was unreliable at best. And perhaps most devastatingly, the audio/video they had from the phone didn't provide nearly as much detail as they'd hoped they could pull from it. And what's more, their initial statement intended to intimidate the killer, did just that. It scared him so much that he withdrew into a his own little shell and he made sure never to break another law or ever present himself in public in a manner that might make anyone recognize him as the killer in this case.

So at that point, LE decides to "pivot" & take "a new approach" where they present a new sketch that looks completely different from the initial one, and continue to offer up absolutely no new info and repeatedly remind the public that they have no real suspects in the case. And perhaps the reason they did this was to draw the killer out of his shell. ...let him start to feel comfortable knowing that LE had no real evidence against him from this case, so maybe he'd think it was safe to kill again.

So maybe LE's "new direction" was to allow the killer to relax & get caught for something new, rather that for him to be so scared from LE's initial statement that he would turn himself in.

As always, MOO. Very very very much my opinion only - and what I will be the first to admit is likely a big stretch.

I hope this is not the case, but your theory certainly seems plausible.

 

[CNYDarkStar]

It seems like maybe some of us are confusing crime scene details with relevant/helpful info.

I can definitely see both sides on this but I believe that letting people know when or if something is no longer an issue or contains any relevance would be a smarter thing so people aren't wasting police time and resources. It's akin to letting someone be known as a suspect when they have no involvement.

 

[Barbieshell]

I still think releasing little bits of info may be the only way forward, as an example say for instance a massive teddy bear was left at the crime scene - that could be helpful information tbh. As "insert random person here" used to have one of those but it disappeared from the house or was presumed donated back in February 2017...........
Something innocuous like that could move the case along, holding everything back is just not working ffs, It's been 4 years and 4 months and still he's walking free.
Pure speculation and JMOO

 

[Trebor5591]

MOO- I just have a hard time believing that LE has a suspect and is just sitting on this info. What if the guy commits more crimes and hurts someone else while LE waits? Has this happened in other cases that any of you know about? Admittedly, I have limited knowledge of how this stuff all works but I just cant wrap my head around knowing who killed 2 kids and not being able to do anything about it. If they know for sure, wouldn't that be enough to arrest the person?

I agree that LE doesn't have a suspect in mind, or if they do have a suspect, it is only a possible suspect, one whom can not be eliminated, but for whom there is no real evidence against. They do not have a "good suspect' whom they believe is the killer, for whom they are just "waiting for that one tip" before they arrest him.

If LE had a good suspect, by now, they would have examined every aspect of his life. They would have surveilled the suspect 24/7. They would know his friends and his employer. They would know his family. They would have interviewed them all. They would have obtained search warrants to examine his phone records and his internet history. They would have examined his driving history, his criminal history, his credit history, his bankruptcy history, his civil court history, put together a list of friends and acquaintances, and looked carefully at all of them, looking for weaknesses they could exploit to use against the suspect. With the help of the FBI, and IRS, they would have examined their history of federal and state tax returns. They would have looked at any welfare applications, food stamp applications and certifications, etc., auditing each and every one to ensure 100% compliance with all laws.

With all the laws existing in the US, nobody, not even a saint, could withstand this sort of scrutiny without LE learning of some laws being broken. If the suspect was a drug user, LE could set them up and catch them making a purchase. The likelihood is that the murderer of those two little girls would have a criminal history of lessor crimes increasing over time in frequency until he finally graduated to horrific murder.

Once the laws broken by the suspect are identified and documented, either a warrant for electronic surveillance or an arrest warrant for the identified crimes could be obtained. LE would then time the arrest to occur on a Friday evening, which would guarantee at the very least the suspect would be in custody until Monday morning. That would give LE 48 solid hours to interrogate the suspect about the murder and his whereabouts, plant an informant into their cell, etc. Possibly the DA could convince a judge to set bail high enough where the suspect would sit in jail longer than 48 hours.

Because none of the above has occurred, so far as we now, I feel that any suspects LE has are not strong suspects. That's why I believe LE does not know who the murderer is. If they knew who the murderer was, they would be moving heaven and earth to bring them to justice, if not for the murders, then for any other crimes LE could convict them of.

My prayers for justice for Libby and Abby.

 

[MistyWaters]

If LE knows beyond a doubt who the killer is, but needs a little more to arrest him, then why not release more information. People who know the guy should recognize he’s the POI if the evidence is that clear it’s him. Then maybe someone will have a lightbulb moment and connect some dots for an arrest.
No information from LE is leading us no where.

Just because LE asks for tips does not mean the public is tasked with solving these murders, nor is it intended to lead us somewhere. LE probably believe no good tips coming from the public is leading them nowhere as well. I really doubt anybody who knows somebody with the opportunity to have been connected to the Delphi murders who is eager for an arrest of somebody so cold blooded as to murder two innocent teens is sitting back scratching their head waiting for still more information. Or that the Task Force is so utterly incompetent as to hold back crucial information which would’ve immediately identified the killer.

Either someone knows something and isn’t talking or as TL said -

Q. What elements of this case make it so difficult to solve?

A. Several, however the presiding factor seems to be that whomever is responsible has never discussed it with anyone.
Sheriff Leazenby continues to answer double homicide questions | Carroll County Comet

 

[MistyWaters]

It seems like maybe some of us are confusing crime scene details with relevant/helpful info.

I can definitely see both sides on this but I believe that letting people know when or if something is no longer an issue or contains any relevance would be a smarter thing so people aren't wasting police time and resources. It's akin to letting someone be known as a suspect when they have no involvement.

Would it be a waste of police time and resources for people who were in Delphi that afternoon from noon to 5pm to be contacting LE?

But in all fairness, I don’t think a PC from over two years ago is fresh at the top of most people’s minds.

JMO

 

[sandy_80]

I think they had more than enough suspects by now.. if you mean they had ( the BG HIMSELF ) .. NO , THEY DON'T
they cant even make their mind of the age range

 

[Justice101]

following...

 

[Lori Cooper]

Agreed, they've never said they lacked evidence. Ives said that there was a lot of physical evidence, evidence that experienced investigators thought would logically lead to an identity, but which, unfortunately, did not. Source: Delphi Murders 3 Signatures: Robert Ives Interview Transcript from 'Down the Hill' Podcast - CrimeLights

Also take a look at this article from about six months after the murders. Here the lead investigator Holeman addresses the state of the evidence:
In addition to the thousands of leads, police have served several warrants and have been following up on DNA evidence found at the scene of the crime.

"The question is: Do we have DNA? Yea, we have DNA. We're just still working on determining what kind of DNA. Is it the victims? Is it the known family members or is it our suspect?" said Holeman.

He said detectives test and compare the DNA almost daily, hoping it leads them to the killer.

"We're still working on that," Holeman said. "We can't say, 'Do we have the suspect's DNA or don't we?' We have plenty of DNA, and we have plenty of testing to do, and it takes a lot of time."

"We have plenty of evidence to convict somebody," said Holeman. "Obviously, the person doesn't want to be found."

Source: Police open up about evidence 6 months after Delphi double homicide

This has always been the part that interests me the most....DNA. They have evidence, but do not know who it belongs to, or how it came to be there ie., transfer dna, did it come from the killer or just harmless transfer. It takes Parabon a very very small sample to achieve results and give them results of what the person probably looks like, such as hair color, eye color, etc. Perhaps they have the dna of the killer and genetic forensics could be utilized. What is the barrier to the police utilizing this? Is the dna so small that it is one and done or possibly a cost barrier? If they read this thread, just know that I would gladly donate to the cost of having this testing done.

 

[MistyWaters]

This has always been the part that interests me the most....DNA. They have evidence, but do not know who it belongs to, or how it came to be there ie., transfer dna, did it come from the killer or just harmless transfer. It takes Parabon a very very small sample to achieve results and give them results of what the person probably looks like, such as hair color, eye color, etc. Perhaps they have the dna of the killer and genetic forensics could be utilized. What is the barrier to the police utilizing this? Is the dna so small that it is one and done or possibly a cost barrier? If they read this thread, just know that I would gladly donate to the cost of having this testing done.

Using Parabon has been frequently discussed and even the media has questioned LE on the usage of it. It may be LE isn’t absolutely certain they have a sample of the killer’s DNA or perhaps it’s not a complete profile, insufficient for the purpose of successfully obtaining genealogy database matches. JMO

“In 2018 came fresh hope with the arrest of John Miller, who admitted to killing 8-year-old April Tinsley in Ft. Wayne 30 years earlier.

That case was solved with DNA evidence by Parabon Nanolabs. Investigators in the Delphi case worked closely with those who cracked the Tinsley case to see if their methods or findings could help solve the murders of Abby and Libby. Parabon Nanolabs declined an interview and state police would not say if the same test was being used in the investigation.

But their website shows technology can match DNA to someone already in a database. It can also use information about physical appearance found in the genes “to generate new leads on unknown suspects.”

CBS4 asked Indiana State Police why the investigation has taken two years if DNA evidence was recovered. Sgt. Riley responded only, “I’m not going to make a comment on that.”…..
Investigation ongoing two-years after murders of Abby Williams, Libby German in Delphi | WTTV CBS4Indy

Q. Is there partial DNA or a full DNA profile of the suspect?
If there is DNA, has it been run against a genealogy DNA database?

A. This also speaks to an evidentiary aspect of the investigation.
County Sheriff answers double homicide questions from readers | Carroll County Comet

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Just because LE asks for tips does not mean the public is tasked with solving these murders, nor is it intended to lead us somewhere. LE probably believe no good tips coming from the public is leading them nowhere as well. I really doubt anybody who knows somebody with the opportunity to have been connected to the Delphi murders who is eager for an arrest of somebody so cold blooded as to murder two innocent teens is sitting back scratching their head waiting for still more information. Or that the Task Force is so utterly incompetent as to hold back crucial information which would’ve immediately identified the killer.

Either someone knows something and isn’t talking or as TL said -

Q. What elements of this case make it so difficult to solve?

A. Several, however the presiding factor seems to be that whomever is responsible has never discussed it with anyone.
Sheriff Leazenby continues to answer double homicide questions | Carroll County Comet

No doubt, the public is not tasked with solving this crime, but LE certainly has consistently over four years been asking for for the public’s help. Help us identify the person on the bridge, help identify the guy in the sketch(s), etc. Poor tips have been a bane of this investigation I’m sure. But why should any of that, or any thing prevent LE from releasing a bit more information in an effort to solve the case that has not been solved yet in four years. Why would they not try that? If TL’s statement above is true, that the killer has simply not told anyone else, what other choice is there? No one then is going to call up with that last piece of the puzzle, but maybe someone will recognize something in the evidence that will point to someone. It’s worth a try in my opinion.

 

[taylorss]

I was on board with this being a possibility, until I drove IN 25 in '17, and I drove it again last year. It's just not a hitchhiking road. I could see someone walking back to town, but gosh they would have been seen. They could have followed the RR line to Logansport, even using the old interurban path for most of the walk, but at the end of the day I think he had to have driven that day.

JMO

Thanks, that observation is new to me & its really interesting!

My hypothesis MOO is that BG was basically homeless, if so he wouldn’t really have a reason to go back into town …. or anywhere else in particular other than away from the crime scene. If he just tramped off down the RxR tracks or whatever, he’d be able to get a good head start before anyone was even looking for him.

Any thoughts on that based on having seen the spot - could departure on foot work if he wasn’t headed anywhere in particular?

 

[taylorss]

MOO- I just have a hard time believing that LE has a suspect and is just sitting on this info. What if the guy commits more crimes and hurts someone else while LE waits? Has this happened in other cases that any of you know about? Admittedly, I have limited knowledge of how this stuff all works but I just cant wrap my head around knowing who killed 2 kids and not being able to do anything about it. If they know for sure, wouldnt that be enough to arrest the person?

i think IMO if LE had a good suspect in mind & he was a free man, they’d tail him endlessly! They can’t make the arrest until they’re ready to go forward with the case, but that doesn’t mean they’d sit at the station house while he killed more children. Even if they had say 5 good suspects, they’d follow them all just to see what came up - JMO.

 

[taylorss]

I agree that LE doesn't have a suspect in mind, or if they do have a suspect, it is only a possible suspect, one whom can not be eliminated, but for whom there is no real evidence against. They do not have a "good suspect' whom they believe is the killer, for whom they are just "waiting for that one tip" before they arrest him.

If LE had a good suspect, by now, they would have examined every aspect of his life. They would have surveilled the suspect 24/7. They would know his friends and his employer. They would know his family. They would have interviewed them all. They would have obtained search warrants to examine his phone records and his internet history. They would have examined his driving history, his criminal history, his credit history, his bankruptcy history, his civil court history, put together a list of friends and acquaintances, and looked carefully at all of them, looking for weaknesses they could exploit to use against the suspect. With the help of the FBI, and IRS, they would have examined their history of federal and state tax returns. They would have looked at any welfare applications, food stamp applications and certifications, etc., auditing each and every one to ensure 100% compliance with all laws.

With all the laws existing in the US, nobody, not even a saint, could withstand this sort of scrutiny without LE learning of some laws being broken. If the suspect was a drug user, LE could set them up and catch them making a purchase. The likelihood is that the murderer of those two little girls would have a criminal history of lessor crimes increasing over time in frequency until he finally graduated to horrific murder.

Once the laws broken by the suspect are identified and documented, either a warrant for electronic surveillance or an arrest warrant for the identified crimes could be obtained. LE would then time the arrest to occur on a Friday evening, which would guarantee at the very least the suspect would be in custody until Monday morning. That would give LE 48 solid hours to interrogate the suspect about the murder and his whereabouts, plant an informant into their cell, etc. Possibly the DA could convince a judge to set bail high enough where the suspect would sit in jail longer than 48 hours.

Because none of the above has occurred, so far as we now, I feel that any suspects LE has are not strong suspects. That's why I believe LE does not know who the murderer is. If they knew who the murderer was, they would be moving heaven and earth to bring them to justice, if not for the murders, then for any other crimes LE could convict them of.

My prayers for justice for Libby and Abby.

this case is so frustrating & goes on forever w/o ever seeming to make any sense! It seems like it can’t be possible …. unless BG was homeless at the time, had nothing then & has held onto nothing since, so there’s nothing to search …. walked off into the distance without being seen because homeless people are treated as an eyesore….. has no friends & is even shunned by his family so there’s no one he would’ve talked to about it or who’d notice if he was acting weird …. is now rotting in jail for some other crime so LE isn’t worried about threats to the public anymore … MOO

 

[Hoytie]

this case is so frustrating & goes on forever w/o ever seeming to make any sense! It seems like it can’t be possible …. unless BG was homeless at the time, had nothing then & has held onto nothing since, so there’s nothing to search …. walked off into the distance without being seen because homeless people are treated as an eyesore….. has no friends & is even shunned by his family so there’s no one he would’ve talked to about it or who’d notice if he was acting weird …. is now rotting in jail for some other crime so LE isn’t worried about threats to the public anymore … MOO

Or is right in front of everyone's eyes, everyday.