Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #141

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  • #861
This case just makes me so mad. We are nearly at the five year mark and no arrest, no named poi, not any real viable rumours! Nothing! Two young girls went for a walk and never came home, someone needs to pay for that! I know there are many cases that become cold, and I can’t come near to understanding how family and loved ones feel, but this case hits me differently. It may be because we saw pics just before they meet their end, or that there is audio and video that so far has led nowhere. I just hope justice isn’t served. Moo
 
  • #862
Coming up to the half a decade time stamp on this case. It really isn't fair that Abby and Libby don't have justice yet. I think somewhere in amongst all the tips and stuff the police have - and I imagine there is a massive volume - the right piece of info to set them on the right trail is there. I just don’t think they have figured out how that info fits or connects as yet.
 
  • #863
I had forgotten about that "answer". That's about the same time or after the HLN interview where he said they had DNA. Talk about mixed messages.

Just a guess, but "mixed messages" might happen when there is no clear command structure in an investigation, so we have a person from one agency saying "Abcd" while a speaker from another LE entity says "Lmnop," and someone from a third agency declines to comment on the matter.

It pains me to say it, but it sounds IMO like it relates to poor chain-of-command (and control.)
 
  • #864
I've been thinking about why LE might not release COD. In one of the HLN DTH podcasts, TL says they don't want to release the COD because if they did, the killer would know they are correct in their theory. He also said he didn't believe releasing the COD would help anyone identify the killer. This kind of makes me wonder if the girls had different CODs.
 
  • #865


I wonder if they have those 30-35 human cells needed though. Or if maybe that DNA ended up being not related to the crime. Perhaps matched to someone with a totally solid alibi or from an animal (coyote?) checking out the bodies overnight? Sorry if that sounds crazy, but just trying to think of some ways the DNA might not have panned out, especially with an outside rural crime scene.
 
  • #866
It is not a surprise to me the case is not solved. Once it became a few months after the crime happened and within such a small town, either police are off-track in who they are looking for or this person is so good at hiding and staying out of the crowd that finding them is proving to be extremely difficult. At the beginning I thought this case would be solved very quickly.

I do not understand how LE sees the person depicted in the April 2019 sketch within Liberty German's video. In my opinion, this sketch is how people are going to remember the case as time goes on. Maybe someone goes a little further and watches Liberty German's video, but they are probably going to assume that LE is basing their sketch on the video. I think LE is basing their sketch from an eyewitness statement of someone who thinks they saw this man or woman on the bridge. Sometimes in the course of trying to help people lead cases astray. I think that is what happened here.

But there is always hope. There is a video of the potential suspect in their case. Someone probably knows who that person on the bridge is. I think the face of this case is now the second sketch from 2019 and not the video. If the case does get solved I think LE is going to end up owing the girls a thanks for having the wherewithal to get the suspect on video. The amount of time it is taking to solve the case is the reason why.
 
  • #867
What baffles me is there is a $350,00, which could change someone’s life. IMO If someone knows something, they were either complicit or they are terrified.
 
  • #868
A few things I keep coming back to:

County Sheriff answers double homicide questions from readers | Carroll County Comet

Q In your professional opinion, would you describe the deaths of the six females as “planned”?

A. No. Rather, “victims of circumstance or opportunity.”
Additionally, ISP is the lead with the Flora investigation. Our agency is not actively involved with that investigation.

The above question was in reference to both the Flora fire and Delphi. *Note: It has been stated by LE that they do not think the 4 girls' deaths in Flora were intentional in the commission of the arson, so I see that as being the "circumstances" part of TL's answer above, since "opportunity" wouldn't really fit that statement. Jmo.

Imo, TL's opinion of the Delphi murders is the "opportunity" part. He's saying outright that, in his opinion, the murders were not planned.
_______________

Q. The public has been given two sketches, is the thought there is more than one person involved or is the second sketch the suspected killer? Please clarify the two sketches, this has been a point of confusion since the second sketch was released.

A. These were produced by information gained from witnesses near the area during time frame. The primary focus by investigators is on the second sketch.

I mean, of course wording can always be interpreted differently by individuals, but my take on this is that the witnesses were near the trails that day, within a given period of time around the murders, and they saw the person(s) they were describing. This, as opposed to they saw something online, or L's video, or somebody in the days prior or after. We also know the first (older) sketch was a composite from many sources (can't find a link at the moment).

All just my own thoughts...
 
  • #869
It’s that time of year again. Creeping up on year 5 of no resolution or justice for Libby and Abby. LE deflects criticism by saying they look forward to explaining all about their amazing investigation once they arrest someone. Right. I doubt that, as far as them looking forward to it.
My question is…what is the most important new thing you learned this year concerning the case? For me, I learned that I can’t believe anything that comes out of LE’s mouths about this case.
In years 1-4, I apparently stupidly, believed everything LE threw out as fact. Those very few bits of information they shared with us, I collected them like precious stones. And I defended those few facts revealed to us by correcting others here and reminding them over and over of the tiny pieces of truth revealed by LE to us.
Sorry about that. My humble apologies.
The revelation that the girls were possibly catfished after being told for 4 and a half years that they weren’t revealed my treasured facts to be Fool’s Gold. I was the fool I guess. I can’t trust anything we’ve heard now. The catfish info wasn’t some new info they just came across, that was obvious.
So, I would love to know what was the most important thing you learned this year?

P.S. JBC is still my #1 draft pick for the Delphi killer. I know some disagree and that’s OK, I’m sticking with him until they arrest somebody else.
 
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  • #870
It’s that time of year again. Creeping up on year 5 of no resolution or justice for Libby and Abby. LE deflects criticism by saying they look forward to explaining all about their amazing investigation once they arrest someone. Right. I doubt that, as far as them looking forward to it.
My question is…what is the most important new thing you learned this year concerning the case? For me, I learned that I can’t believe anything that comes out of LE’s mouths about this case.
In years 1-4, I apparently stupidly, believed everything LE threw out as fact. Those very few bits of information they shared with us, I collected them like precious stones. And I defended those few facts revealed to us by correcting others here and reminding them over and over of the tiny pieces of truth revealed by LE to us.
Sorry about that. My humble apologies.
The revelation that the girls were possibly catfished after being told for 4 and a half years that they weren’t revealed my treasured facts to be Fool’s Gold. I was the fool I guess. I can’t trust anything we’ve heard now. The catfish info wasn’t some new info they just came across, that was obvious.
So, I would love to know what was the most important thing you learned this year?
For me, one thing that stands out after JBC and KAK (along with many others) is just how many dangerous people exist amongst us, no matter how urban or rural...
 
  • #871
I think they have unknown DNA from the crime scene but it’s touch DNA and it’s not necessarily from the killer. It’s not a big help except to worry BG a bit.
He should be worried!
 
  • #872
Thanks for this.

His comment on the second article is interesting in that he is discouraging tips. I have noticed a handful of online accounts across YT and Reddit that I believe to all belong to one person, and a common theme is that they discourage tips, want everyone to become demotivated and forget about the case, move on, "it will never be solved" etc.

Yes, I have noticed it, too, but in a very logical way (I would not be interested in a strip club that was probably getting out of business anyhow, lol). The first comment was probably more interesting.
 
  • #873
It’s that time of year again. Creeping up on year 5 of no resolution or justice for Libby and Abby. LE deflects criticism by saying they look forward to explaining all about their amazing investigation once they arrest someone. Right. I doubt that, as far as them looking forward to it.
My question is…what is the most important new thing you learned this year concerning the case? For me, I learned that I can’t believe anything that comes out of LE’s mouths about this case.
In years 1-4, I apparently stupidly, believed everything LE threw out as fact. Those very few bits of information they shared with us, I collected them like precious stones. And I defended those few facts revealed to us by correcting others here and reminding them over and over of the tiny pieces of truth revealed by LE to us.
Sorry about that. My humble apologies.
The revelation that the girls were possibly catfished after being told for 4 and a half years that they weren’t revealed my treasured facts to be Fool’s Gold. I was the fool I guess. I can’t trust anything we’ve heard now. The catfish info wasn’t some new info they just came across, that was obvious.
So, I would love to know what was the most important thing you learned this year?
Thanks for sharing.

They really snagged me with "the twist" but I'm not sure that was the most important thing. I don't take much of what they say as the Gospel truth; there's too much conflicting info. The catfish info served as a bit of justification to those of us who considered an internet connection was possible.
 
  • #874
I wonder if they have those 30-35 human cells needed though. Or if maybe that DNA ended up being not related to the crime. Perhaps matched to someone with a totally solid alibi ... just trying to think of some ways the DNA might not have panned out, especially with an outside rural crime scene.

You're right IMO about whether LE has enough biological material to yield a decent sample, absolutely. Ditto "being not related"--absolutely possible. But one more way DNA evidence has possibly not been helpful ("hasn't panned out") is if there simply isn't anything to compare any CS DNA to. And I think that's a very significant possibility.

The other week we discussed how perhaps as many as 50 million Americans (at an estimate) may have sent DNA in to one of the commercial DNA companies. Yemelyan very helpfully discussed how different testing protocols might limit the use of any of that DNA information, but we also need to realize that even the commercial DNA samples can't automatically be searched, not legally. As I understand it, people who submit samples must specifically opt-in to have that data copied to a searchable database. So just submitting DNA to "123 and me" apparently doesn't make your DNA searchable, you must also give informed and explicit consent for that ahead of time. And there are reasons to be concerned about the accuracy of the testing to begin with. (1.)

I tried a search just now and various articles say perhaps 50-75% of Americans might be at least partially linked to DNA from related samples that have been submitted--and the articles specify they mean white Anglo Americans. I'd suggest you search this if you're interested; I only took a short look at this and there's a lot of variation in the numbers. But one source that was particularly interesting is a Pew Research article, About half of Americans are OK with DNA testing companies sharing user data with law enforcement , that says around 35% of people surveyed did not approve of DNA information being searchable by lawn forcement.

Now I'm just guessing, strictly uninformed guessing, but I'd guess maybe 95% of people in Salt Lake City would approve of their DNA data being searchable. Geneology is important to many Mormons and they're law-abiding people.

But go to the Mississippi Delta, where a third of residents live below the poverty level (NBC News), or Idaho, where fewer than 45% of residents have covid vaccinations (vs 15% for the general population, source US Census.) IMHO in general, these people do not trust science or central government, and many/most of them IMO are not going to opt-in to have their DNA searchable--most of them won't send their own DNA and neither will many/most of their relatives IMO. Incorrect DNA test results are IMO a significant risk.

So just "having DNA from the crime scene" *might* turn out to be useful in prosecution of a subject, possibly in identifying a subject for arrest. But even if LE has an excellent quality DNA sample and they feel sure it is from the killer, there is still an unknown but clearly significant chance it will be of no use (2.)

--------------
1.) Tandy-Connor, S., Guiltinan, J., Krempely, K. et al. False-positive results released by direct-to-consumer genetic tests highlight the importance of clinical confirmation testing for appropriate patient care. Genet Med 20, 1515–1521 (2018). Redirecting

Genetic Tests and ‘False Positives’

J Forensic Sci;
2003 Jan;48(1):47-54. "How the probability of a false positive affects the value of DNA evidence"

2.) The numbers are a guess; a web search will let you get your own set of numbers. The number of samples submitted, and how many of them can legally be used for searches, and how much of the related population is affected, and many other specifics--all of these vary by news article.
 
  • #875
Just a guess, but "mixed messages" might happen when there is no clear command structure in an investigation, so we have a person from one agency saying "Abcd" while a speaker from another LE entity says "Lmnop," and someone from a third agency declines to comment on the matter.

It pains me to say it, but it sounds IMO like it relates to poor chain-of-command (and control.)
I've had the same thought. Up until April 2019, we had ISP Superintendent Carter, ISP Sgt Riley, ISP 1st Sgt Holeman and Sheriff Leazenby all addressing the case and answering questions. Plus there was at least one other ISP public affairs - other than Sgt Riley - and former prosecutor Ives making statements and answering questions. The upside is that almost all of these folks made themselves available to the public for interviews. The downside is if they aren't all reading from the same notes it is confusing to the public. In fact, with all the ISP folks - Carter, Riley, Holeman and at least one other ISP trooper - I thought that ISP was in charge. It has only been in the last year that I've learned that the Carroll County Sheriff's Office was in charge.
 
  • #876
I've had the same thought. Up until April 2019, we had ISP Superintendent Carter, ISP Sgt Riley, ISP 1st Sgt Holeman and Sheriff Leazenby all addressing the case and answering questions. Plus there was at least one other ISP public affairs - other than Sgt Riley - and former prosecutor Ives making statements and answering questions. The upside is that almost all of these folks made themselves available to the public for interviews. The downside is if they aren't all reading from the same notes it is confusing to the public. In fact, with all the ISP folks - Carter, Riley, Holeman and at least one other ISP trooper - I thought that ISP was in charge. It has only been in the last year that I've learned that the Carroll County Sheriff's Office was in charge.

Very true. I also can’t help but wonder, considering several of these key figures aren’t in front of the media on a regular basis, if they’re somewhat overtaken by the sudden attention this case has brought and have begun to thrive on making cryptic comments, then people hanging on to every word, as if to appear they know it all and are on the verge of an arrest. That would be good if true, but I’m beginning to have my doubts. When this case does finally get solved, and I’m certain it will, I can envision a clash about who deserves hero status between all the different agencies involved. JMO
 
  • #877
Very true. I also can’t help but wonder, considering several of these key figures aren’t in front of the media on a regular basis, if they’re somewhat overtaken by the sudden attention this case has brought and have begun to thrive on making cryptic comments, then people hanging on to every word, as if to appear they know it all and are on the verge of an arrest. That would be good if true, but I’m beginning to have my doubts. When this case does finally get solved, and I’m certain it will, I can envision a clash about who deserves hero status between all the different agencies involved. JMO
Yes, when there is an arrest it might get kind of crowded up there around the microphone at the PC.
 
  • #878
...
My question is…what is the most important new thing you learned this year concerning the case? For me, I learned that I can’t believe anything that comes out of LE’s mouths about this case.
... So, I would love to know what was the most important thing you learned this year?

My own is probably about the LE investigation. I'd say I've defended LE strongly all along. But a lot of the discussion here makes it fairly obvious to me that messages from different agencies, and from different people, haven't been carefully considered and developed by an overall investigation command structure working with a well-thought-out strategy. I've developed the opinion that there has been a lot of disorganization among the investigating agencies, and I'm very sad to say that I suspect that the investigation has been held back by this. Not good. :-(
 
  • #879
There are reports that Ron Logan died today, apparently of Covid. He had been on a ventilator. I guess I can't link to the channel. It is news from Randy Gravitt.
 
  • #880
So, I would love to know what was the most important thing you learned this year?
I have learned so far: We can't find the missing puzzle piece, no matter how many times we start the puzzle over. Desperation is spreading after nearly 5 years and no result. :(
 
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