Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #142

[Detective Willy]

Have you seen this person:

He is approximately 5 feet 8 inches or 172 cm tall.
He is approximately 200 pounds or 90kg.

This is what he was wearing at around 2pm on the Monon High Bridge on 13th February 2017.

 

[Becky Starkey]

LE did resume the search on the trails. The searchers did not go straight to the where the girls were found. There were many groups of searchers; a smaller number were at the trailhead and the bridge. The groups near the bridge were small because LE were more certain that was where the girls disappeared and the likelihood of them not being alive was increasing - therefore you wouldn't want hundreds of people wandering around, you would want it more controlled.

This website has a good timeline as well as sources that breakdown every piece of information: https://www.actus-reus.com/delphi-timeline

Thank you for posting that, I've not seen it before and there's some info I didn't know. It's pretty comprehensive. It's also incredibly sad. The very end has some of the grandparents with a quote. Lastly, Abby's granddad stating she was his best friend. My 12 year old granddaughter is also my best friend. I cannot comprehend losing her and adding to it, losing her to a monster. I can't imagine what the families are going thru right now and if any of them are reading this, peace and light and love to you. Your beautiful girls live in our hearts too.

 

[sunshineray]

Wow. Thanks! I apparently missed watching this.

So, yes, like you said, fingerprints, and Kelsie says “at all crime scenes your going to have fingerprints, etc..”

So wait, yes this is true, But this is out in the woods. Who else’s fingerprints are you going to have and on what? Clothing...And it could be first responders, searchers, which I assume would be ruled out. Thinking out loud, so then if there were fingerprints they couldn’t rule out as someone as LE/searcher and it would be run against CODIS, which apparently means no match yet thus far. So thinking more about this, he’s, based on the above, possibly not in the system. As far as fingerprints go. Obviously.

Interesting.

—-

More:
“They have DNA, they can’t match it to anyone yet.”
-Kelsie 36:52

—-


So listening now to GH talk about Parabon. What will Kelsie say about this???

“I don’t know, just have to keep pushing...”

(Agreed)

But wow, so no comment on Parabon.

Thanks for posting this again @sunshineray I’ll double check it’s in media thread too. I think I remember posting it, but didn’t get a chance to watch it.

You're very welcome margarita. I was also thinking, people smoke outside and discard litter...so who know where the fingerprints cane from. I'm not really knowledgeable about prints, can they be lifted from wood...branches, logs or even leaves?

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Dear @Sgt. Pepper,

I thought of something else that you may find of interest - it's full of information concerning the case. I go back to this map to look over information quite often.

One of our wonderful members, @skibaboo, created an interactive map which I've found to be extremely helpful.

@skibaboo included news articles, maps of the area - there are also videos posted on the map from other people who videotaped the walk across the bridge and the area.

Here it is and I think you will find it extremely informative!

Abigail Williams & Liberty German. Delphi, IN. 2/13/17 - Google My Maps

I will definitely look forward to checking that out. Awesome.

 

[Charlot123]

That's why they haven't identified
him. He was most likely very average - average height, average weight, average looking, and the list goes on and on. People saw him and didn't pay any attention to him because he fit right in. He didn't stand out in any way.

Looking like an average guy may have been intentional or he's just very, very lucky no one paid any attention to him that day - except, unfortunately, Libby and Abby.

You know, most humans would look average on that bridge. Brad Pitt would, especially with the face in scarf. You have to be built like the Rock to stand out there. So he might be super cute, or not so much, but unless he is very tall, or a bodybuilder, what with his garb, he is practically invisible.

So many theories on this case and maybe we should look at this from the start again.

What was the killers MOTIVE? IMO if we can work this out it will go a long way to help solve this.

Was this a targeted attack or a random attack?

Most people seem to think it was a random attack so why was BG there on that day? It does not seem to be a random area that you accidentally end up at. BG must work nearby or have some connection with the trails and bridge area.

Maybe he is a psycho and has always wanted to kill. Maybe he had planned murdering someone at this location for a while and waited and watched from nearby with his "kit". Maybe he had staked this place out on previous days/weeks etc.

My problem with this theory is that if we was a sicko who planned to kill random people he would likely have done it again in the next 5 years. Is it possible that this was a targeted attack and if the answer is yes then the next question is why?

Very reasonable questions, at least the LE should be able to tell us, random or targeted. In general, they should present some version for the public. One can not impose silence and blackout, but at the same time, participate in all these podcasts and TV interviews. Five years is long enough.

Using Occam's razor, if I didn’t know more about the case except for "two teens, went to local trails - were killed - case cold”, I'd think that the guy has one thing under his belt - no connection to the girls whatsoever. This, and he was smart enough not to leave DNA. Then, any random SK, nonlocal or semi-local, could get away with it.

However, the snippets of info that we get, are confusing. We have a video that is grainy but “somewhat” resembles the first sketch shown to us…two years later, it is “sorry, different guy”. We have the voice but no one is able to identify it. “Knew the lay of the land", "person-targeted", the crime scene, and where he stayed, all these hints indicate, targeted?

LEO should be able to explain at least this to the public.

About the bridge. There are artisans in Indiana involved in bridge reparations, they are famous, even. The problem is, being too far from Delphi, I have decided to not randomly suspect anyone, because the locals would have done it already.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I don't see how LE thinks holding back details of what condition the bodies were in and how are hey we're killed. Thats why it's hard for us to figure out a possible motive. I could see LE holding back in the beginning but 5yrs later it's time to give the public more.

 

[JnRyan]

What’s to say he hasn’t? I think it’s very possible has killed since then. He maybe has not been linked yet, or caught yet. (Assuming JBC, KK, or another POI don’t turn out to be specifically related.)

That's what I wonder about. Somewhere there might be a missing girl or girls and he might be the abductor and killer. Or there is possibly an unidentified body that LE can neither ID or determine the cause of death and he is responsible. The Delphi murders here might be his one act that didn't go as planned. He might have learned from his mistakes here and changed his approach/technique. Samuel Little committed murders all across the country for 30+ years and from all across the country from CA to FL and LE didn't make the connection. (He is believed to have a victim in the area where I grew up.) For all I know is if this killer lived in Delphi 10-15 years ago these murders might be outliers if he is a serial killer, while the remainder occur closer to where he lives now.

 

[Yemelyan]

You're very welcome margarita. I was also thinking, people smoke outside and discard litter...so who know where the fingerprints cane from. I'm not really knowledgeable about prints, can they be lifted from wood...branches, logs or even leaves?

I recently heard an expert speak about fingerprints and it was really eye-opening as to what surfaces are best for prints and how fragile they can be. Basically, there are three types of prints: impression (imagine the three dimensional print left behind if you pressed your finger into a soft, moldable surface like clay or wax), patent (visible prints - imagine a finger coated in blood that pressed against a windowpane), or latent (invisible to the naked eye - these are left behind because the ridges of your fingers, palms, and soles of your feet have organic oils and sweat that can be invisibly left on certain surfaces). Because these latent prints are just made up of oils from your skin, on any surface they will break down over time and on certain surfaces they can be extremely fragile.

Forensic examiners classify surfaces in three ways - porous, non-porous and semi-porous. Porous surfaces are absorbent and would be materials like paper, cardboard, untreated wood, money, etc. Fingerprints deposited onto this type of surface are considered pretty durable and there is a high probability of collecting them, especially if the surface is smooth and non-textured. Non-porous surfaces , especially if smooth and non-textured, are also conducive for the deposition of prints, but because they do not absorb the oils and actually repel the moisture from a print as it's deposited, prints from these surfaces are more fragile and can be easily damaged by environmental factors (precipitation, heat, etc). These surfaces are glass, metal, plastics, painted wood, and rubber, for example. Semi-porous surfaces would be things like cellophane, glossy paper or treated cardboard/wood. This type of surface has to be processed using techniques adapted for both porous and non-porous surfaces. As with the other two types of surfaces, texture is a problem for print recovery because textured surfaces do not allow complete contact between the ridges of the skin and the surface being touched.

Some additional factors - surfaces that have become wet can be particularly challenging and require special techniques. Surfaces that themselves already have grease or oil are not great for the deposition of prints (some parts of firearms and human skin would be examples of this - in addition, human skin is not rigid and deforms under pressure so this can obscure print detail). Can you still get prints from these challenging surfaces? Yes, sometimes - but the probability is low and the detail, even if you succeed, is often not good enough for comparison.

TL said in the HLN special that they had evidence "suggestive" of a print but they did not know if it was the murderer's print. So we don't know if that was a patent (visible) or latent (invisible) print but it sounds as if it was perhaps not in the best condition when recovered or maybe a partial.

Here's more info about latent prints that covers what I shared above:
https://dofs-gbi.georgia.gov/document/publication/180850381gbi-latentprintspdf/download

https://dofs-gbi.georgia.gov/document/publication/180850381gbi-latentprintspdf/download

 

[FrostedGlass]

So what’s the “twist”? That has been top of my mind recently.

ETA: I also don’t think “The Shack” was brought up randomly. I think it was deliberate. Was there communication with LE and/or did BG leave a sign or something.

The twist was it turned out to be a double homicide instead of runaways or missing.

 

[MistyWaters]

I don't see how LE thinks holding back details of what condition the bodies were in and how are hey we're killed. Thats why it's hard for us to figure out a possible motive. I could see LE holding back in the beginning but 5yrs later it's time to give the public more.

Cause of death probably falls into the category of holdback information. If a suspect told someone else (“someone knows something!”) about committing the murders, if LE told the world how he did it, there’s no way to tell the difference between a true confession or someone adlibbing what they heard on the news or even someone maliciously making false accusations against an innocent person in the hopes of collecting the reward.

With respect to the victims and their families, I’d sooner they eventually catch the guy than to satisfy public curiosity. LE knows the cause of death and if it indeed pointed toward a motive unfortunately it hasn’t yet resulted in an arrest. JMO

 

[TL4S]

So many theories on this case and maybe we should look at this from the start again.

What was the killers MOTIVE? IMO if we can work this out it will go a long way to help solve this.

Was this a targeted attack or a random attack?

Most people seem to think it was a random attack so why was BG there on that day? It does not seem to be a random area that you accidentally end up at. BG must work nearby or have some connection with the trails and bridge area.

Maybe he is a psycho and has always wanted to kill. Maybe he had planned murdering someone at this location for a while and waited and watched from nearby with his "kit". Maybe he had staked this place out on previous days/weeks etc.

My problem with this theory is that if we was a sicko who planned to kill random people he would likely have done it again in the next 5 years. Is it possible that this was a targeted attack and if the answer is yes then the next question is why?

A man targeting two young girls indicates a sexual motive, imo. But then would he choose to walk through frigid water right before a SA? I mean...

And if he committed any kind of act on the south side of the creek, why bother taking them across to the other side to kill them?

I don't even know what to think.

 

[zencompass]

So what’s the “twist”? That has been top of my mind recently.

ETA: I also don’t think “The Shack” was brought up randomly. I think it was deliberate. Was there communication with LE and/or did BG leave a sign or something.

I've always thought that the "twist" was the fact that a victim of a murder actually captured the murderer on video.

JMO

 

[StarryStarryNight]

As far as the “twist” is concerned, at first I thought it referred to a strange or weird thing that was found or happened at the crime scene.
Now, I agree with @FrostedGlass and @zencompass that the twist is missing children turned up murdered, and the killer was caught on video.

 

[Ravenmoon]

A man targeting two young girls indicates a sexual motive, imo. But then would he choose to walk through frigid water right before a SA? I mean...

And if he committed any kind of act on the south side of the creek, why bother taking them across to the other side to kill them?

I don't even know what to think.

I agree that the crime was sexually motivated . I would tend to believe that homicidal ideation is sexually motivating/arousing for many a murderer.

AMOO JMO MOO

 

[TL4S]

I agree that the crime was sexually motivated . I would tend to believe that homicidal ideation is sexually motivating/arousing for many a murderer.

AMOO JMO MOO

I agree. The dang creek crossing is the kicker. It takes an otherwise straight-forward crime and jumbles all logic.

 

[Yemelyan]

A man targeting two young girls indicates a sexual motive, imo. But then would he choose to walk through frigid water right before a SA? I mean...

And if he committed any kind of act on the south side of the creek, why bother taking them across to the other side to kill them?

I don't even know what to think.

I'm inclined to think that if he made them go through the water, it wasn't for any of the utilitarian reasons we've speculated (to get to a waiting car, to get to a prepared spot, etc). Right now I'm thinking that it was part of his fantasy - the act of controlling them and making them go through something uncomfortable, taking them where they didn't want to go and knowing it was scaring them.

 

[MistyWaters]

I agree. The dang creek crossing is the kicker. It takes an otherwise straight-forward crime and jumbles all logic.

One thing, I think it’s easy to associate the exact location where the bodies were found as the “crime scene” because we’ve all seen photos of police tape. But to LE, it may be much broader than that as they’ve told us the criminal behaviour begins at the bridge. We know little or nothing about where or what forensic investigation has revealed.

BBM
German’s quick thinking in the face of fear prompted Indiana State Police Sgt. Tony Slocom to pronounce her a “hero.” That young lady is a hero, that is no doubt,” Slocom told reporters. “To have enough presence of mind to activate the video system on her cell phone to record what we believe is criminal behavior about to occur, there is no doubt in our mind that she is a hero.”
Why Police Have Not Released Details on the Murders of Libby German and Abby Williams from Delphi, Indiana

Crime scene refers to a location where an illegal act took place.
https://definitions.uslegal.com/c/crime-scene/

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I agree. The dang creek crossing is the kicker. It takes an otherwise straight-forward crime and jumbles all logic.

The creek crossing never made any sense to me either, but it happened, so it has to be considered.
I can’t imagine BG wanted to cross the creek. Cold water might ruin the mood so to speak. Which would mean…
1) His intent was to attack the girls on the south side of the creek. There doesn’t seem to be a lot of obscured places on that side so I don’t know where he would’ve been headed.
2) He had a car on the road under the bridge. I think someone would have seen a car on that road(a real witness who lived along that road, not people who claimed to see a car in the picture like early on) so I doubt that.
3) He intended to take them to a house or structure on that side of the creek. (NOT the “shack”. I don’t believe DG’s comments were anything other than personal to him.) This seems farfetched.
So, I’m left with that he was planning on attacking them on the south side of the creek, without much thought or planning…and they ran. They tried to escape by crossing the creek, but sadly it failed.
LE may know why they crossed the creek, whether they were led, or they ran. The audio on Libby’s phone might tell them that.
Just my thoughts.
Five years later…

 

[AC4RD]

I don't see how LE thinks holding back details of what condition the bodies were in and how are hey we're killed. Thats why it's hard for us to figure out a possible motive.

You're absolutely right. But of course, only LE knows what information they actually have, and how it might or might not relate to potential suspects, and LE is the only group that decides what information is released and what is held back.

What--IMO JMH Moo!--is on our favor is that multiple agencies, including the Georgia State Police, and the FBI, have been involved in the investigation. This IMO means there is probably some reasoning behind what information is released.

if it were just Tobe L making the decision, someone might say "The girls were found next to a pile of garage-sale fliers from the previous Saturday. Don't you think we should release that information, so anybody who knows about the garage sale could contact us?"

If it's just TL, he might say no to releasing a copy of the garage-sale flier. But with city, county, state agencies, plus the FBI and GSP, it seems likely to me that someone would have managed to override TL's judgement on releasing the info. (And I'm *NOT* blaming TL specifically; just saying no one person's judgement would have been absolute IMO.)

Personally, I've been reading and thinking about the girls' case for ... over a year now? A short time compared to many of you. And I'm sad to say I'm starting to find myself agreeing with the people who say "the investigation was seriously botched and BG will never be caught." I hope that's wrong, but I can definitely understand the feeling. :-(

 

[TL4S]

The creek crossing never made any sense to me either, but it happened, so it has to be considered.
I can’t imagine BG wanted to cross the creek. Cold water might ruin the mood so to speak. Which would mean…
1) His intent was to attack the girls on the south side of the creek. There doesn’t seem to be a lot of obscured places on that side so I don’t know where he would’ve been headed.
2) He had a car on the road under the bridge. I think someone would have seen a car on that road(a real witness who lived along that road, not people who claimed to see a car in the picture like early on) so I doubt that.
3) He intended to take them to a house or structure on that side of the creek. (NOT the “shack”. I don’t believe DG’s comments were anything other than personal to him.) This seems farfetched.
So, I’m left with that he was planning on attacking them on the south side of the creek, without much thought or planning…and they ran. They tried to escape by crossing the creek, but sadly it failed.
LE may know why they crossed the creek, whether they were led, or they ran. The audio on Libby’s phone might tell them that.
Just my thoughts.
Five years later…

All some of my thoughts, as well. And as @Yemelyan pointed out, the creek crossing itself could have been an integral piece to BG's control. DC did say they knew it was about control...

I've said it often before, but with BG on the bridge, the creek really cut off the girls' route back from where they came. For some reason, I find that significant. So it didn't matter which direction he took them, or they fled, because there were literal physical boundaries to keep them from going the direction he knew they would want to go. And eventually taking them or forcing them that very direction is almost like taunting them with the relative safety so nearby.

I always think that if he calculated the crime beforehand, he would have led his victim(s) southwest of the bridge, away from homes and roads and deeper into isolation instead of down below, close to homes and through the water, some of which is visible from the bridge. The same reporter who shot those pics of the supposed CS tape, with RL, also took a shot of the bridge from there, so it seems to me that spot was NOT invisible. IDK...

This is yet another reason why I think the body location could have been closer to where LE always gives in their distances, farther east than what we think. Not only would it make sense for BG to take them DTH to right below that steep bank, as out of view as possible below the bridge, where he could have assaulted them (or not), and then continue in the same general direction across the creek under that steep bank where there's a natural crossing, then onto the sandbar of the north bank, which would be much easier to exit on than the banks below the cemetery, plus more out of view. Not only controlling them through the woods and water, but farther, and for longer, and into an area less visible and with even more physical barriers. Jmo.