Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #143

[photographer4]

I've always thought B.G. could be saying "your guy is down the hill". Jmo.

Interesting idea that has never occurred to me!

 

[AC4RD]

We talked recently about the issue of DNA use in investigating crimes, and about consent for DNA to be used for that purpose. There's a very interesting story in the AP news about crime *victims* having their own DNA compared in criminal investigations:

Use of rape-kit DNA to probe other crimes shocks prosecutors

 

[Falcon500]

I have a question for anyone who understands jurisdiction matters better than I do (which is probably everybody). Considering the affidavit and charges, it appears ISP led the Peru search in 2017. The girls KAK contacted were mostly local, iirc. I'm not sure their counties, but Peru is in Miami County, so I'm assuming since that is where the IP address connected to a_shots originated from, that's why KAK's charges are in Miami Country. Is this correct?

The a_shots ask was also done through ISP, but the A&L tip line is in Carroll County. The Carroll County Sheriff, if I'm understanding it correctly, is the one heading up the Delphi murders investigation.

So, why would a Carroll County headed investigation be using their tip line for a Miami County based crime (a_shots), unless there was a connection? Serious question.

Because the Internet knows no jurisdictional lines. They wanted anyone who had communicated with Anthony Shots to come forward whether they lived in Miami County, Carroll County, or Detroit.

 

[MistyWaters]

I've always thought B.G. could be saying "your guy is down the hill". Jmo.

The word is “guys”.

LIBERTY GERMAN — FBI
Recording of unknown subject in Indiana homicide investigation saying, "Guys ... Down the hill."

 

[Lavender Moon]

I've always thought B.G. could be saying "your guy is down the hill". Jmo.

It is an interesting thought; however, we hear in the recording, "Guys...". I do believe the "guys" were Abby and Libby.
IMO, they were there to enjoy a nice walk as best friends and were not there to meet anybody.

 

[Lavender Moon]

Those girls did not go down that hill to meet someone. He clearly brandishes a gun and accosted them and they tried to make a break for it. There's 0 reason not to believe Anna's accounts after her hearing the recording. The gun, etc. These girls aren't dumb. There's no way they'd cross the bridge into a secluded area away from potential witnesses. It just makes no sense at all. And they were taking pictures along the way. And the new released information insinuate they were clearly creeped out by him. And he isn't dressed like someone they would listen to in good faith. Just no way.

<Admin Note: Please always remember to indicate when it is your opinion rather than stating information as fact>

I really appreciate this post with your excellent points. Would you mind elaborating on your second to last statement about him not being "dressed like someone they would listen to in good faith"?

 

[Marzipan]

The word is “guys”.

LIBERTY GERMAN — FBI
Recording of unknown subject in Indiana homicide investigation saying, "Guys ... Down the hill."

I think the insinuation is that what he meant is “Your guy is down the hill,” shortened in speech to “Your guy’s down the hill.” Guys and guy’s sound the same.
Could be. New thinking, anyway!

 

[MistyWaters]

I think the insinuation is that what he meant is “Your guy is down the hill,” shortened in speech to “Your guy’s down the hill.” Guys and guy’s sound the same.
Could be. New thinking, anyway!

The FBI know what’s on the tape and they refer to is as “guys”, not an abbreviated form of “guy is”.

I can’t think of one good reason why Libby and Abby would willingly go look for somebody “down the hill”, especially because there’s no indication they recognized the man on the bridge as someone they knew. If something like that occurred, “your guy” seems a very distant, unusual frame of reference, rather than just saying a name. I just don’t believe they’d be so trusting and naive.

 

[Marzipan]

The FBI know what’s on the tape and they refer to is as “guys”, not an abbreviated form of “guy is”.

I can’t think of one good reason why Libby and Abby would willingly go look for somebody “down the hill”, especially because there’s no indication they recognized the man on the bridge as someone they knew. If something like that occurred, “your guy” seems a very distant, unusual frame of reference, rather than just saying a name. I just don’t believe they’d be so trusting and naive.

I think nearly all of us agree they were forced down the hill. Maybe a few don’t, the same ones who wonder why they didn’t just call 911 or whatever.

 

[sandy_80]

you think any girl who feels creeped up by a male can call 911 and all will be well ? I would like to see if this ever worked

 

[MistyWaters]

I think nearly all of us agree they were forced down the hill. Maybe a few don’t, the same ones who wonder why they didn’t just call 911 or whatever.

Thanks! Yeah, if making a 911 call was quite so simple there’d be very few murders as most of us carry cellphones. As he was approaching them they wouldn’t have known for sure they were in extreme danger. They probably either hoped or expected the man might’ve turned around or just kept walking past them. But then by the time he was within speaking distance I doubt Libby would’ve even tried to call 911 as he surely wouldn’t have given her the opportunity. “Excuse me while a call 911” just does not happen in those circumstances.

 

[Confusion]

It makes a lot of sense. Related, yes. I wonder what the phrase “may look younger” means? A hint at the fact that they are not of the same age? Father and son, uncle and nephew? I wonder if they both were outside, and either could be seen, in different parts of the trails, by different witnesses?

I believe it was said that the guy in the older looking sketch may look younger, possibly because that's what some of the witnesses said about it - "It looks like him, but he looked younger than that." Something I've been noticing as I've aged is that people don't always see "age" the same way. For example, there is a person who is 45 years old. A 10 year old may just call them old; a 20 year old may guess them to be about 50; a 30 year old may guess somewhere between 45 and 50; a 60 year old may guess them to be about 35; a 70 year old may just think of them as "kids" (or guess them to be 30-35).

Because of that, and other things that might make us see each other differently, I'm just expecting BG's age to be somewhere between the 2 sketches. In addition to that, though, people may also look older or younger than their biological ages 20 my guess for him is anywhere from 30 to 50, but I wouldn't bet any money on it even if I had seen him face to face.

I sure hope this doesn't as jumbled to others as it does to me!

 

[Imvp2]

you think any girl who feels creeped up by a male can call 911 and all will be well ? I would like to see if this ever worked

They were kids, just kids. Being in any danger was the last thing on their minds. At that age, they felt invincible with so much life ahead of them.... I have 2 that are the same ages.

This guy needs to be caught. I firmly believe there's enough talent in this group to do it.

 

[sandy_80]

i recall many cases where the killer claimed he killed the victims cause they were threatening or calling 911 like mollie tibbetts for ex

 

[Deleted member 229974]

Those girls did not go down that hill to meet someone. He clearly brandishes a gun and accosted them and they tried to make a break for it. There's 0 reason not to believe Anna's accounts after her hearing the recording. The gun, etc. These girls aren't dumb. There's no way they'd cross the bridge into a secluded area away from potential witnesses. It just makes no sense at all. And they were taking pictures along the way. And the new released information insinuate they were clearly creeped out by him. And he isn't dressed like someone they would listen to in good faith. Just no way.

<Admin Note: Please always remember to indicate when it is your opinion rather than stating information as fact>

Indeed, but thank you for your opinion, OverTheRhine.

 

[somequestions]

Here is JH's explanation of how the first sketch came to be.

Delphi Murders CrimeCon Interview Transcript - CrimeLights

SGT. HOLEMAN: You can ask the tough questions, I’ll answer them. Again, it takes a lot of time. I’m not a sketch artist. The FBI actually–an agent from the FBI–did the sketch. And you know, I think when somebody sketches it takes like, 10 minutes [shakes head ‘no’]. It takes several weeks. But to get the information, to find the people that we believe saw that person that day near the time of the murders, that takes months. So we had to locate these people, interview them, find out who they really saw. Did they really see the guy on the bridge from the video, or did they see Mike out there helping search, or did they see somebody else out there helping with the search? So we had to identify those people, and once we felt like we identified the people that actually saw the guy on the bridge, then the sketch itself took, again, several weeks. They sketched it, looked at it, “No…that’s not correct”. I will say that she still–[Clarification note: he quickly corrects his use of ‘she’ to ‘they’]—they, there’s a couple people— still aren’t convinced that’s the proper hat, but that’s the hat that the sketch artist could come up with as close to what the witnesses were describing. And I know the Superintendent [Doug Carter] said “Don’t focus on the sketch”, and we got a lot of calls on that. I think what he meant to say was…you know, where there’s four or five of us up here right now and if we pick somebody out of room right now and identify them to a sketch artist, there would be five different sketches. They’d have the similar features, as we believe this sketch has of the guy on the bridge, but they’d be a little different. So I think that what he meant is the person that did this heinous crime may not exactly look like that sketch. That’s what the person’s information and then the sketch artist had to take that information in and then put it on paper. So it’s not always going to be perfect, but we think that’s a really good sketch, and we think it’s really close to the person that we’re looking for on the bridge.

This is exactly why the case is not solved. This is all my opinion only: It all depends on why the sketches were made. If the sketches were made because the eyewitness saw someone with wet pants, then I think it was justified. But I wonder if that is the case. The question is this:

Do police use guesswork in the course of an investigation?

First the term guessing is the probably the wrong term to use because it suggests guessing as in a multiple choice test. I do not think police do this. I do think that police follow what they think, especially if the case lacks direction.

For example, if police come across a woman murdered in her home, but the husband cannot establish an alibi, police might think he did it. If they find out later that he may have been cheating on his wife or that he has financial problems this will only help drive home this idea. Sometimes it can continue to the point of being arrested and even tried, especially if there is very little physical evidence and few leads on possible POI's.

But if scientists and fact seekers were the best detectives, Abigail Williams and Liberty German's case would already be solved. The point is not that evidence is not important. I like people that think in terms of the evidence. But people want to gloss over the human condition.

Why is there a sketch of an older person and a younger person? Probably because police want to keep the spectrum for tips as wide as possible. Why? Because they really have no idea what the person who murdered Abigail Williams and Liberty German looks like. They have a general description of a person on a bridge taken from a phone and that is it. The video is too pixelated to make an identification.

Police think the sketches could represent the person who murdered Abigail Williams and Liberty German. I think police forgot that people often only remember what you have done for me lately. Asking people to consider the video, the first sketch, and second sketch is too much for many people. Because of this, I think many people who look at this case are going to see the second sketch as the face of the person who murdered Abigail Williams and Liberty German.

Even if the case is solved and the person looks nothing like either sketch, police will say that the chin or some other feature was correct. Or people will point to the news clip of a sketch that looked like a cartoon that managed to get a tip that led to a suspect being arrested. If it looks like the sketch, the objective thinkers will be happy even though it may only prove that the thinking it was this person ended up being correct.

Police do use what they think to guide the course of their investigation, especially where there is very little evidence to guide them in a particular direction. And like us, sometimes they are right. Sometimes they are wrong.

 

[JnRyan]

We talked recently about the issue of DNA use in investigating crimes, and about consent for DNA to be used for that purpose. There's a very interesting story in the AP news about crime *victims* having their own DNA compared in criminal investigations:

Use of rape-kit DNA to probe other crimes shocks prosecutors

Wow! First we have rape kits sitting untested, for a decade in some cases. Now we have this?

 

[Charlot123]

Cousins or half siblings?

Given the assumption that the murderer knows the place but has not been remembered/accounted for, it could be even a child once visiting a step-grandpa (and then the parents divorced, so there is no obvious connection to the place), who came to see the once-relative again. The relationships in Delphi, judging by the Patty house, can be convoluted.

 

[ApparentlyInDenial]

I think he says "guys, get down the hill." Awful creepy case.

 

[photographer4]

I think nearly all of us agree they were forced down the hill. Maybe a few don’t, the same ones who wonder why they didn’t just call 911 or whatever.

I think they were forced to go with the killer...