Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #146

[infinit]

I think your supposition is correct.

For example....

Following the San Bernardino terror attack, federal law enforcement really wanted to access the perpetrators I phone- with out triggering the auto erasure of the information.

The case was a national level terror case and the FBI, CIA, NSC etc. have enormous resources in regards to data re-construction etc.

But...not even they were confident that they could reconstruct the erased data on the phone. So, they took Apple through a long court battle to unlock the phones w/o erasure. Eventually, the FBI withdrew the Court request because a third party helped them out regarding the erasure.

Anyways, using the erased I phone data fear of the FBI, one could extrapolate that once some social media exchanges erase- they truly erase to the extent that not even national level resources can readily reconstruct them.

Apple Fights Court Order to Unlock San Bernardino Shooter's iPhone - Nouvelles de sécurité| Trend Micro (FR)

The US federal court has ordered Apple to comply with an FBI request to unlock the iPhone of one of the San Bernardino shooters. Here’s why Apple said "no," and why it matters.

www.trendmicro.com

I work in Info Sec. There's a big difference between data stored locally on a device and messages on a SM platform. Facebook for example doesn't use end to end encryption so assuming a warrant can be obtained and the messages weren't deleted by both parties some time ago (no one really knows how long), then they'll be there. For apps like Signal that use end to end encryption the messages aren't stored anywhere but the 2 or more communicating devices and so the company cannot provide them even if compelled.

As an aside, if you want to see the extent of the data the US government sweeps up on its citizens look no further than the X-Keyscore NSA program which Snowden revealed, the kind of thing that when China does it, people are horrified by it. Browsing history, chats, emails.. The whole works.

 

[cujenn81]

As far as powers of observation go I've always loved this video taken from a PSA. See if you can count the number of passes.

I majored in psychology and my Sensations & Perceptions professor showed us this video in class one day and it straight up BLEW my mind. I said something like “there’s absolutely no way that bear was present in the first part of that video,” so the prof simply restarted it from the beginning and I was like WHOA!!!!

I think that was the first time I truly understood the complexity of the human brain… not only its capabilities but also its limits. It also kinda worried me in a way because I suddenly felt like I couldn’t trust my thoughts.

 

[Boxer]

I work in Info Sec. There's a big difference between data stored locally on a device and messages on a SM platform. Facebook for example doesn't use end to end encryption so assuming a warrant can be obtained and the messages weren't deleted by both parties some time ago (no one really knows how long), then they'll be there. For apps like Signal that use end to end encryption the messages aren't stored anywhere but the 2 or more communicating devices and so the company cannot provide them even if compelled.

As an aside, if you want to see the extent of the data the US government sweeps up on its citizens look no further than the X-Keyscore NSA program which Snowden revealed, the kind of thing that when China does it, people are horrified by it. Browsing history, chats, emails.. The whole works.

Well Snowden's now completely surveillanced in his new home country. And I doubt he is allowed to posses even a bolt action .22 target rifle.

 

[Georgia8]

Well Snowden's now completely surveillanced in his new home country. And I doubt he is allowed to posses even a bolt action .22 target rifle.

In terms of the idea that the perp is someone who moved away from Delphi as an adolescent or young adult. Does anyone local know whether the path that led to the creek was there say 40 years ago? Do we know whether LE has pursued this angle I would assume so but don't know. Also did the local schools publish high school year books I believe yes and it was called Oracle or the Oracle. Was it around that long ago as well? This is something for LE handle or at least someone local to look at without posting on social media obviously we don't someone's day ruined because they moved away from Delphi 20 30 or 40 years ag.

 

[FromGermany1]

That's a good point. I wonder if many tips would have been called in on him had the girls not been found on his property.

I think, reason to suspect RL was also, because he was the first man, we saw, who was wearing clothing very similar to BG.

 

[Vern]

IMO the release of the Search Warrant really was not intended to make RL a suspect in the court of Public opinion.

The release of this document was to allow other pieces of information to become available to the public.

Some of these things include:

*LE was interested in finding animal hair samples.*
I find that to be interesting. This is telling us that animal hair samples were found at the scene - thus informing us that the perpetrator likely had a pet or raised livestock.

*They were looking for electronic devices used to produce cellular signals .*
WHAAAATTT???? This may just back up the theory that a burner phone was used ( helps with the catfishing, stalker theories) and that this crime was memorialized in some sick fashion.
This murderer- likely has an interest and gets sexual arousal from photos/ and or video of a murder, IMO. Hmmm...who does this sound like? Sure reminds me of someone that LE interrogated 2 years back.

*There are many different "storage " devices that the FBI hoped to recover..including , but not only- computers, tape drives, commercial software and hardware, scanners, graphic formats , undeveloped film, etc, etc.*
THIS IMO, sounds like dark web , drop box exchanges and CSAM connections. This individual likely not only gets off on this - but sells it so that other psychos can get off on it too.

*They are looking for writings and correspondence containing information about the crime scene*
They strongly believe or KNOW that someone has told others about what they have done. (Sounds like something DC stated in 2019, doesn't it?)

*It appears as though the murderer took a piece of one of the girls clothing OR some other trophy*
Kind of sounds like serial killer stuff, IMO.

*There seems to be 2 different weapons used in the crime. A gun- and an unknown weapon that we are all speculating is a knife. This seems to be corroborated by the fact that the judge is giving permission to the agent to search for and seize any "cutting instruments."*
This is self explanatory.

*The victims were moved and staged*
This is another bit of information that alludes to the killer being gratified sexually by the poses he left the kids in....or , less likely, that he staged this to look like a different crime (perhaps murder suicide- which, I have a hard time believing)

* There were copious amounts of blood at the Crime scene indicating the killer would have been covered in blood*
This is the worst bit to discuss , for me personally...but sadly, also it is likely one of the most useful pieces of information. This person was doused with his victims DNA making all of us wonder what became of those clothes? Did anyone encounter someone that had bloody laundry , some blood spatter on their shoes, etc? I don't know- but IMO this bit would help nail someone in quick time.

I am probably forgetting some things- but my point in this long winded post is that the information being brought forth was NOT intended to paint RL as a killer. It was to give us information about what really was at the crime scene and what it is that LE has been looking for.

Please remember, in order for the FBI to get this warrant - they had to be compelling in their argument that RL could potentially be a good POI. They had to "sell it" to the judge for lack of a better term. They really needed to get into his property and be CERTAIN that none of these things were there that could incriminate this man. IMO that is what they did, its what they found- nothing, nothing to incriminate him whatsoever.

JMO MOO

EBM for grammar

LOGAN WARRANT final_Redacted.pdf

et he rS de. ur M. et he rS de. ur M. et he rS de. ur M. ...

www.docdroid.net

And, they actually have to remain factual in that sworn affadavit for the search warrant. Don't forget that had they actually found any evidence and had reason to charge RL with the crime, the defence would have had the evidence tossed from the case based upon using false information to obtain a warrant because the sworn to grounds for the warrant, if untrue, would have made it a groundless warrant - thus not legally obtained.

Of course they had to sell it, but they weren't going to lie on it.

Of course they needed to get in to his property and search to rule him out as a suspect because the minute he did that interview so many people who saw it immediately posited that he WAS bridge guy, just look back at these very websleuths threads and see that happening in real time. The fact the media compelled him to say, "down the bridge" in that inteview didn't help matters. I can imagine how many calls LE was innundated with pointing out "RL had to be their man" after that interview - perhaps even one or two from members here given the discussions of him and his possible connection when the interview came out .... enlarged photos of his jacket, jeans, shoes etc.

Indeed, they HAD no choice but to search and rule him out because if they ever expected to arrest a perpetrator of this horrific crime and take that individual to court any good defence attorney worth their salt would have always had RL to use as their scapegoat and reasonable doubt for their own culpability had LE not done so. Great work by LE here in cutting off that vein of defence for Libby & Abby's killer. I have faith that one day these lovely girls will get their justice.

 

[Kell1]

We should ask @Kell1

The crimes are sexually motivated, so these people don't change. They don't think there's anything wrong with what they do. Hopefully, they'll end up dead or incarcerated for some other offense, but the cold case files are full of them. Sometimes they move to another community and pick it up later. It's rare, but it seems some do stop if they think they will get caught, if age catches up to them or if other things change in their everyday life.

ETA: They will probably remain active on the internet, with CP, though. That's the best chance LE has of catching them, I suppose.

Most sexual homicides of children are actually unplanned ,IE the killer is NOT out actively trolling for victims,

Your typical abduction killer of children is most often a sexual deviant who may or my not have considered abducting a victim however one day the planets align, where there is a victim or victims with no adult presence around, and their poor impulse control fails.

This doesn't mean some aren't some that do go out looking for victims, in the case, of serial child killers especially sadistically motivated, ones, they may indeed, go hunting for a victim, but they are extremely rare .

AS for seeking fame, seeking notoriety is a secondary component to the crime itself that if true (there are often false claims) is directly linked to the personality of the offender, in this case, however, there have been no letters or communications with police or media outlets, therefore I don't think this individual is looking for notoriety for his crime(s), the fact that the girls bodies, were hidden to avoid detection also strengthen my belief in this .

Now as I've said before , of all the homicidal types out there , those who abduct children and murder them for sexual purposes, whether they have a sexual preference for adults and are using the victim as a surrogate , or they have a defined, sexual preference for children, these individuals have the highest probability to re offend and therefore become serial killers.

Though that doesn't mean they all do, but once they do they certainly have opened a door to something horrible.

And these types move around A LOT, in most cases, you can find a move to the area of a crime within a year prior

AS for them stopping, we used to believe that there were only 2 reasons killers stopped, they were either dead or in jail, we since come to understand that that is simply not true, they may stop for any variety of reasons ranging, from physical or mental inability, to a simple change of heart (I know its weird). Sometimes, they are a one off, especially if they almost got caught or were a suspect who is now in the public eye.

 

[sandy_80]

Most sexual homicides of children are actually unplanned ,IE the killer is NOT out actively trolling for victims,

Your typical abduction killer of children is most often a sexual deviant who may or my not have considered abducting a victim however one day the planets align, where there is a victim or victims with no adult presence around, and their poor impulse control fails.

This doesn't mean some aren't some that do go out looking for victims, in the case, of serial child killers especially sadistically motivated, ones, they may indeed, go hunting for a victim, but they are extremely rare .

AS for seeking fame, seeking notoriety is a secondary component to the crime itself that if true (there are often false claims) is directly linked to the personality of the offender, in this case, however, there have been no letters or communications with police or media outlets, therefore I don't think this individual is looking for notoriety for his crime(s), the fact that the girls bodies, were hidden to avoid detection also strengthen my belief in this .

Now as I've said before , of all the homicidal types out there , those who abduct children and murder them for sexual purposes, whether they have a sexual preference for adults and are using the victim as a surrogate , or they have a defined, sexual preference for children, these individuals have the highest probability to re offend and therefore become serial killers.

Though that doesn't mean they all do, but once they do they certainly have opened a door to something horrible.

And these types move around A LOT, in most cases, you can find a move to the area of a crime within a year prior

AS for them stopping, we used to believe that there were only 2 reasons killers stopped, they were either dead or in jail, we since come to understand that that is simply not true, they may stop for any variety of reasons ranging, from physical or mental inability, to a simple change of heart (I know its weird). Sometimes, they are a one off, especially if they almost got caught or were a suspect who is now in the public eye.

I would like to argue regarding the fame factor.. as it's one of my theorised possible motives
he doesn't have to seek fame by communication..this is something of the past prior to the digital age where its longer possible to hide ur identity...
rather.. he can seek fame by committing a strange or unusual murder( as in the staging of the crime ) that will grant him an unusual offender lable or coverage ...I know he didnt know he was being recorded

 

[ArmchairDefective]

MOO but I would ask that you rethink how "damning" those identifications actually are. Eyewitness identification is very frequently inaccurate, see the links below. A brief web search will show you how often and how badly witness misidentification often is.

Thanks for giving me pause to reconsider. I had failed to account for the power of suggestion; if locals were aware that the girls had been found on Ron Logan's property, that might make them likelier to identify the figure in the Bridge Guy pictures as him.

I haven't followed this case closely so I'm sure my impressions are lacking a lot of information; I suppose after all this time if law enforcement didn't think that RL was the killer, it must mean that he wasn't -- despite how bad the confluence of evidence looks in the recently released warrant.

 

[Charlot123]

If it was only the Delphi police department investigating, or only the Carroll County Sheriff's office, then I could see this as a possible theory, but there have been so many agencies involved in investigating this (ISP, FBI and GBI just the ones we know about) that I don't see anyone being "protected" by their status.

Maybe not; but you are mentioning bureaucracy. The bureaucratic goals are: to keep their chair, to rise in the ranks and to get all state benefits upon retirement. So while I admit many possible versions, and suspects, I don't believe we have seriously discussed the real one, in such a way we discussed KK or JBC, for example. Whoever looks suspicious, be it from a private IT world, the bureaucratic one, or a neighborhood blacksmith, I am game to discuss. But he has not been under the public radar yet.

 

[Schatz]

Maybe not; but you are mentioning bureaucracy. The bureaucratic goals are: to keep their chair, to rise in the ranks and to get all state benefits upon retirement. So while I admit many possible versions, and suspects, I don't believe we have seriously discussed the real one, in such a way we discussed KK or JBC, for example. Whoever looks suspicious, be it from a private IT world, the bureaucratic one, or a neighborhood blacksmith, I am game to discuss. But he has not been under the public radar yet.

Do you have a specific theory? Would love to hear!

 

[Falling Down]

Thanks for giving me pause to reconsider. I had failed to account for the power of suggestion; if locals were aware that the girls had been found on Ron Logan's property, that might make them likelier to identify the figure in the Bridge Guy pictures as him.

I haven't followed this case closely so I'm sure my impressions are lacking a lot of information; I suppose after all this time if law enforcement didn't think that RL was the killer, it must mean that he wasn't -- despite how bad the confluence of evidence looks in the recently released warrant.

Going off all that...

Imagine if RL had not sought media attention early on, had not allowed the media outlets on to his property, etc. Along human psychology lines, and I'm hardly an expert or even well-versed on the issue, I'd imagine there would have been a fraction of the amount of attention he got and continues to get in this case.

I've said that since at least late-2017, in hindsight he should have laid low and just lawyered-up. Not trying to bash the guy, but he should have made an effort to stay out of the limelight. IMO people wouldn't even be discussing him right now had he done so.

JMO

 

[Spartygirl]

Going off all that...

Imagine if RL had not sought media attention early on, had not allowed the media outlets on to his property, etc. Along human psychology lines, and I'm hardly an expert or even well-versed on the issue, I'd imagine there would have been a fraction of the amount of attention he got and continues to get in this case.

I've said that since at least late-2017, in hindsight he should have laid low and just lawyered-up. Not trying to bash the guy, but he should have made an effort to stay out of the limelight. IMO people wouldn't even be discussing him right now had he done so.

JMO

I agree he should have lawyered up and not spoken to press HOWEVER, it would have been hard to stay out of the limelight being that 2 girls were found murdered on your property.
People have been discussing him since the beginning.
That would not have changed.
JMO

 

[carbuff]

Uvalde gunman threatened rapes and school shootings on social media app Yubo in weeks leading up to the massacre, users say | CNN

Salvador Ramos told girls he would rape them, showed off a rifle he bought, and threatened to shoot up schools in livestreams on the social media app Yubo, according to several users who witnessed the threats in recent weeks.

www.cnn.com

I think it's just the same request we heard about already.

" Last month, Indiana police investigating the 2017 murder of two teenage girls said they were seeking information about a Yubo user who had solicited nude photos of underage girls on other social media platforms."

 

[Charlot123]

Do you have a specific theory? Would love to hear!

Not at all. From personal experience (parents’ life was in danger but they survived) I learned how complex we tend to think when it comes to motives and “why me”? Occam’s razor works; however, we humans tend to complicate things, either because the theories contain inconvenient truth, [because we can’t believe that “such a nice guy” (and in the case of Indiana, probably, “god-abiding guy”) can be the killer], or because we would not kill for such a reason. In short, I believe that the answer will either be the shortest cut, or a totally random person who simply itched to kill and chose someone not connected to him. (But in the second scenario, one has to look in the places around Delphi for his “landing pad”, the place where he stayed. That will be his connection.)

The first scenario. The shortest cut. Either one of the girls was molested and the person needed to erase the evidence, or her close friend was molested, and she knew too much. The rest - all the LE explanations that “it is very complicated” - I don’t believe anymore.

 

[Charlot123]

.

I work in Info Sec. There's a big difference between data stored locally on a device and messages on a SM platform. Facebook for example doesn't use end to end encryption so assuming a warrant can be obtained and the messages weren't deleted by both parties some time ago (no one really knows how long), then they'll be there. For apps like Signal that use end to end encryption the messages aren't stored anywhere but the 2 or more communicating devices and so the company cannot provide them even if compelled.

As an aside, if you want to see the extent of the data the US government sweeps up on its citizens look no further than the X-Keyscore NSA program which Snowden revealed, the kind of thing that when China does it, people are horrified by it. Browsing history, chats, emails.. The whole works.

I am not horrified nor even surprised, having grown in the Soviet Union. I always wonder if this information can be meaningfully processed, though. As an analogy, I am always thinking of a big church hosting lots of information, baptismal records - but who can either through all of them? AI can do only that much.

 

[Charlot123]

(respectfully snipped for focus)
MOO but I would ask that you rethink how "damning" those identifications actually are. Eyewitness identification is very frequently inaccurate, see the links below. A brief web search will show you how often and how badly witness misidentification often is.

Look up if you like, Jean Hill, who was standing closer than 20 yards to President Kennedy when he was killed. She testified that JFK and Jackie were holding a small white dog in the limo. There was no dog. She testified that, after the shots, she ran up the Grassy Knoll chasing a supposed assassin; photos show she dropped to the ground and sat after the shots. She apparently believed both points even though photos prove they are untrue. "Mandela Effect" is incredibly powerful.

And in this particular case, we aren't even dealing with witnesses at the scene, it is people who say they believed RL to be the man in the video--they didn't actually identify him at the scene. Considering that viewers of the BG video can't agree on what sort of hat BG is wearing, if any, or shoes or limp or fanny pack and can't even agree on the breed of puppy or baby goat he has under his jacket, making a positive identification of an individual seems VERY farfetched IMO.

We also should consider that RL was obviously not a warm-n-fuzzy sweetiepie of a person and some people, consciously or unconsciously, may have used a personal dislike for RL to influence their claim that RL was the person in the BG video. Maybe we could do a poll here on Websleuths--how many people think the RL we see in the Feb 2017 TV news segments is the same person as in the bG video? I definitely don't think RL is the man in the video, MHO, and I suspect most of us don't.

Links:

Myth: Eyewitness Testimony is the Best Kind of Evidence

Activities in this unit reveal how eyewitness testimony is subject to unconscious memory distortions and biases even among the most confident of witnesses.

www.psychologicalscience.org

Mandela Effect: Examples and explanation

The Mandela effect is one popular but heavily debated type of false memory. Learn more about it here, including potential causes and some famous examples.

www.medicalnewstoday.com

https://www.egattorneys.com/mistaken-eyewitness-identification

Just MHO but having a bunch of people say they think RL was the man in the video is definitely not "damning" proof of it.

I also wonder if witnesses should be tested for their facial memory before lineup identification. I tested myself for prosopagnosia (facial blindness) - I don’t have it, but my facial memory is at about 33% mark. This being said, my olfactory memory is good, so letting me “sniff” people in the lineup might help (don’t laugh, people smell differently under stress, and I think we should use olfactory memory of the witnesses, too). Lack of good memory for faces shouldn’t prevent with identification of bodies, gait or height, but I wonder how many people who saw BG in RL have deficits in facial memory.

 

[infinit]

.


I am not horrified nor even surprised, having grown in the Soviet Union. I always wonder if this information can be meaningfully processed, though. As an analogy, I am always thinking of a big church hosting lots of information, baptismal records - but who can either through all of them? AI can do only that much.

Keyscore has a few strands. One being that is enables analysts to search the data e.g. find me every IP which visited x website or page in the past y days or find me every email containing a specific word or find me everyone who looked for a certain place on Google Maps.

There's then the alerting part, so if they want to get an alert everytime a specific email address of interest sends an email for example.

No warrant is needed for any of this.

I assume their capabilities have moved on in the past 10 years and they use machine learning to try identify patterns of activity that are of interest that are more complex than finding keywords etc, but that's just me speculating based on the general trends of the wider Info Sec field.

There are a lot of capabilities that if they could be given to law enforcement in some manner with the appropriate oversight could probably help crack a lot of cases. Considering they're already collecting it and doing whatever with it, my personal opinion is they might as well get the most good out of it.

The problem is for it to be used in court, they have to reveal the capabilities that got them whatever data in the 1st place. And the intelligence services don't want to disclose all of the capabilities they have. Don't assume because they don't do something publicly that they don't have the ability to do it, it could just be they don't want to reveal the fact they can e.g. break into modern IPhone's.

Anyway, I'll leave that there as it's only quasi related to the thread.

 

[arielilane]

I majored in psychology and my Sensations & Perceptions professor showed us this video in class one day and it straight up BLEW my mind. I said something like “there’s absolutely no way that bear was present in the first part of that video,” so the prof simply restarted it from the beginning and I was like WHOA!!!!

I think that was the first time I truly understood the complexity of the human brain… not only its capabilities but also its limits. It also kinda worried me in a way because I suddenly felt like I couldn’t trust my thoughts.

Same thoughts when I saw video.

 

[Schatz]

Has this been shared?

Delphi victim's mom on handling of case: 'They don't know what they're doing, still'

INDIANAPOLIS (WISH) — The mother of one of the girls murdered in Delphi five years ago said she has lost faith in law enforcement. Libby German’s mom, Carrie Timmons, is making that statement one week after I-team 8 revealed stunning new details in the case. Last week, I-Team 8 with the help of...

www.wishtv.com