Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #147

[Schatz]

I’m never so good at keeping track of case basics — have we ever heard a number as far as how many people/accounts downloaded images from the ashots Dropbox account? I remember in the Murder Sheet podcast there was a mentioned number of images (I think); I just don’t remember a number of people accessing them.
You say “catch the ringleaders” so I’m guessing you do not believe KAK is a ringleader. He may just be a small part of the biggest CSAM case in the state, but a piece that helps them with the whole thing.
Or, it’s not the biggest CSAM case at all and that statement in the interrogation was an exaggeration. That would mean there are other reasons it’s taking so long.

I don’t think we’ve heard a number but I only read the LE transcript once.

From a local (to the state) perspective, whether or not it’s related to KAK and his Dropbox, there have been a large number number of CSAM arrests in recent months/year-ish in Indiana. And then there have been charges outside of Indiana for targeting minors IN Indiana
- a recent one was IIRC a man in CA who targeted several in nearby Kokomo (which, coincidentally, is I believe where KAK was staying at the time he was ultimately arrested).

It IS possible that none of this uptick is related to KAK at all and rather perhaps reflects developments in technological capabilities of LE, idk.

I’d be curious to know if there IS a genuinely significant uptick in CSAM arrests in Indiana (or if I’m just noticing them more? But I don’t think that’s it). And if so, are there also corresponding spikes across the country or is it really heavy in Indiana or what.

 

[Charlot123]

Thank you for posting this, I'd not seen this before. It's certainly is an eye-opener to the thoughts of the prosecutor in the early days.

He was certain the man caught on audio and video by Libby was the killer.

He did NOT think the killer was local.

He thought the murders would most likely be solved by more murder occurring.

All that seems like the prosecutor, who would know all of the investigative work going on, didn't know about the biggest investigation into CSAM in Indiana's history was afoot? Was that the FBI in conjecture with ISP's doing, keeping the locals in the dark? Is that why Ives eventually left?

What is the date of this interview?

Ives was retired by the time of the interview. I don’t know the retirement date, but remember he briefly came out of the retirement in the end of 2018-beginning of 2019, as if there were a hope he’d prosecute the Delphi killer…but then retired again, before April 2019 PC.

 

[taylorss]

I believe so since it was mentioned in the interrogation...my opinion...I believe it happened.

Thanks! Yes, I agree now! I went back to the interview transcript & the whole section around where this is discussed. It’s presented by LE as one of many pieces of info that come directly from KAK’s SM records obtained via subpoena. So that does make it seem pretty reliably true IMO

 

[Ravenmoon]

Just wanted to give everyone a heads up.

The Murder Sheet has a new podcast.

I am listening right now.

Murder Sheet

The Murder Sheet is a weekly true crime podcast hosted by journalist Áine Cain and attorney Kevin Greenlee. We take a journalistic approach to covering true crime. We have broken national news on major cases, like the Delphi murders and the Burger Chef murders. We also cover plenty of other...

art19.com

EBM to add:

There are a couple of interesting points made on the podcast, but nothing that seems to be flashing in neon.

 

[sandy_80]

why did this case blow up so quickly? I know the initial FBI agent happened to be nearby on another case and clearly the Delphi Sheriff’s department needed help as there hadn’t been a murder investigation in years. But to have hundreds of investigators there within days or less…why? What made this murder different from other murders? Murders happen every day, in every town and city, to teenagers, and don’t get law enforcement attention like this. Could LE have tied it to csam from the very beginning? Were they already investigating csam maybe even prior to the murders? Or is there a connection to something else that made the big guns jump instantly?

it got the SM ATTENTION .. it was called the snapchat murders and that made it a novelty with the video and the strange location...its also unusual in this small town..the hints also that its brutal murder with a staged crime scene
i dont think its like any other recent teen murders

 

[taylorss]

in the KAK interview transcripts etc LE went into why they think two different people were using the a_s account, that writing styles were clearly distinct.

Also LE has KAK’s SM records & have revealed that a_s said after the killings that he was supposed to meet Libby but she never showed up. Presumably they also have the chats where that all was arranged, plus whatever else they discussed.

If there are two distinct users of the account, it must be clear which one arranged to meet Libby and / or later said she didn’t show up.

 

[MistyWaters]

in the KAK interview transcripts etc LE went into why they think two different people were using the a_s account, that writing styles were clearly distinct.

Also LE has KAK’s SM records & have revealed that a_s said after the killings that he was supposed to meet Libby but she never showed up. Presumably they also have the chats where that all was arranged, plus whatever else they discussed.

If there are two distinct users of the account, it must be clear which one arranged to meet Libby and / or later said she didn’t show up.

There’s another way to look at the interrogator‘s manner of questioning. Because KAK essentially admitted one else could’ve had liberal access to his devices, he was shutting the door to a possible SODDI defence during his future criminal trial.

Do you know if the girl whom KAK told he was supposedly to meet Libby but she never showed up reported it to LE at the time they were pleading for investigative tips in the murder case - or only after KAK‘s name was lit up by the media? If she’s only telling this more recently and she has no proof her credibility would be absolutely shredded on the witness stand. JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

it got the SM ATTENTION .. it was called the snapchat murders and that made it a novelty with the video and the strange location...its also unusual in this small town..the hints also that its brutal murder with a staged crime scene
i dont think its like any other recent teen murders

Yes and the quickly growing reward was also highly publicized and I think that got huge SM attention as well.

https://m.facebook.com/119531358091471/photos/the-delphi-murders-reward-is-up-to-216165-including-a-donation-of-5775-from-mitc/1419109084800352/

 

[BNA]

Yes and the quickly growing reward was also highly publicized and I think that got huge SM attention as well.

https://m.facebook.com/119531358091471/photos/the-delphi-murders-reward-is-up-to-216165-including-a-donation-of-5775-from-mitc/1419109084800352/

Exactly. I have always hoped that our fellow WS folks would spend more time carefully examining all the aspects related to the offering of the reward. As DC said, someone might be hiding in plain sight.

 

[sunshineray]

in the KAK interview transcripts etc LE went into why they think two different people were using the a_s account, that writing styles were clearly distinct.

Also LE has KAK’s SM records & have revealed that a_s said after the killings that he was supposed to meet Libby but she never showed up. Presumably they also have the chats where that all was arranged, plus whatever else they discussed.

If there are two distinct users of the account, it must be clear which one arranged to meet Libby and / or later said she didn’t show up.

Have to remember, KAK wiped his phones and Libby did a factory reset on hers right before the murders. Those two things may play into having or not having the chats exchanged between them. AJMO

 

[taylorss]

There’s another way to look at the interrogator‘s manner of questioning. Because KAK essentially admitted one else could’ve had liberal access to his devices, he was shutting the door to a possible SODDI defence during his future criminal trial.

Do you know if the girl whom KAK told he was supposedly to meet Libby but she never showed up reported it to LE at the time they were pleading for investigative tips in the murder case - or only after KAK‘s name was lit up by the media? If she’s only telling this more recently and she has no proof her credibility would be absolutely shredded on the witness stand. JMO

No evidence this girl reported the exchange to anyone AFAIK. The info is from KAK’s SM records that were subpoenaed from the companies, which LE confronted him with in interview.

Have to remember, KAK wiped his phones and Libby did a factory reset on hers right before the murders. Those two things may play into having or not having the chats exchanged between them. AJMO

Yeah & I’m not enough of a SM expert to know if there’s any way Snap or whatever’s internal records can be altered by a user. But I assume they can’t, and that when LE subpoenaed these records they got everything IMO

 

[StarryStarryNight]

No evidence this girl reported the exchange to anyone AFAIK. The info is from KAK’s SM records that were subpoenaed from the companies, which LE confronted him with in interview.



Yeah & I’m not enough of a SM expert to know if there’s any way Snap or whatever’s internal records can be altered by a user. But I assume they can’t, and that when LE subpoenaed these records they got everything IMO

There were rumors very early on in 2017 that a friend of Libby’s had come in to report to police that Libby had been talking with someone online. Not much more.
That’s probably all that can be said about it.

 

[Kudzuu]

There’s another way to look at the interrogator‘s manner of questioning. Because KAK essentially admitted one else could’ve had liberal access to his devices, he was shutting the door to a possible SODDI defence during his future criminal trial.

Do you know if the girl whom KAK told he was supposedly to meet Libby but she never showed up reported it to LE at the time they were pleading for investigative tips in the murder case - or only after KAK‘s name was lit up by the media? If she’s only telling this more recently and she has no proof her credibility would be absolutely shredded on the witness stand. JMO

What is SODDI?


JUST MOO.

Last time I asked what something meant I got deleted. I can never seem to post without a mod censuring me. And yes I've read the TOS.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

What is SODDI?


JUST MOO.

Last time I asked what something meant I got deleted. I can never seem to post without a mod censuring me. And yes I've read the TOS.

I’ll get you a quick answer. It stands for a criminal defense that is basically..

some-other-dude-did-it

 

[AC4RD]

There’s another way to look at the interrogator‘s manner of questioning. Because KAK essentially admitted one else could’ve had liberal access to his devices, he was shutting the door to a possible SODDI defence during his future criminal trial.

I agree, and I actually think -- and this is only my own opinion -- it sounds to me like the interrogators were trying to get KAK to say specifically that nobody else was using his device, that he was the only person who could have been using it to contact underage girls.

I've explained before why the 'two different writing styles' thing sounds bogus to me (Shakespeare and 'Hand D" as a sample). I don't think the cops wanted to find out who else used KAK's phone(s), they wanted to lock him into admitting that he was the only person contacting those young girls. Just MHO but it sounds right to me. YMMV.

 

[MistyWaters]

What is SODDI?


JUST MOO.

Last time I asked what something meant I got deleted. I can never seem to post without a mod censuring me. And yes I've read the TOS.

Some Other Dude Did It

While the redacted interview did broach the topic of the Delhi murders, it was
concurrent to the 30 felony charges facing KAK and his subsequent arrest. IMO the interrogator was pinning him in a corner so he couldn’t later claim it was someone else using his devices, regarding those specific charges.

 

[HistoryNut]

Yes and the quickly growing reward was also highly publicized and I think that got huge SM attention as well.

https://m.facebook.com/119531358091471/photos/the-delphi-murders-reward-is-up-to-216165-including-a-donation-of-5775-from-mitc/1419109084800352/

All very true, but I think this case got so much attention because there is a real-live boogeyman. And we still don't know who he is or where he'll strike again, God forbid.

 

[M. Kay]

All very true, but I think this case got so much attention because there is a real-live boogeyman. And we still don't know who he is or where he'll strike again, God forbid.

I take your point that we don't know where or when the murderer may strike again. This view reminds me of reassurance early on though, that "the community doesn't need to worry". Someone here may name that source. Why did Doug Carter say "you want to know what we know, and some day you will?" I'd like to know exactly what he thought he knew.

 

[taylorss]

sooo…. the KAK interviews clearly present the idea that LE believes 1) a_s was involved in the murders and 2) KAK, who admits to setting up & running a_s, was not involved in the murders but 3) TK was involved via his use of KAK’s account and/or devices…

What do we think of this story??
Is this really what LE believes?
or does LE just want KAK to think this is what they believe?
or is KAK just trying to convince the world that LE believes he’s innocent?

 

[ChuckInHouston]

That whole 2019 presser IMO was written by an FBI profiler and delivered poorly. They Don't know. They have a whole bunch of small pieces, but nothing to tie them all together. If you ask me, they spent way too much time on RL, because the crime scene being on his property. <modsnip: Name calling and derogatory terms are a violation of Websleuths Terms of Service> ... he would have to been real stupid not to try to hide the bodies in the middle of the night, or even when it happened being that he was already on his own property. The KK info came in relatively early, but probably took a while to sort out, but all it got them was a bunch of pedos. I've said it a thousand times. Those types run in circles. They gravitate towards people like them who won't judge them. It is very Likely, that the perp is somewhere in all of KK's online sharing of CP. The thing is, he may not actually know them personally, but only online. For my $ he was sharing the account with others. Maybe not TK. It could have been the guy he lived in vegas with as that dude also lived close to him in Peru. I think they would have been better off not releasing the sketches or the audio. It has been more of a distraction than a tool. The video is worthless except to accept it as it is viewed in its original form. I do agree, that someone recognizes BG. They have probably long ago tipped LE, and maybe even brought them some comparison pics etc. I thing they have a good idea who it is, but just don't have the evidence.