Found Deceased IN - Abigail (Abby) Williams, 13, & Liberty (Libby) German, 14, The Delphi Murders 13 Feb 2017 #99

[Blueberry2720]

Just my opinion but the coat has been his for a very long time. Yes lots of people wear variations. I'm just north of the area. I see them I get it. But this one appears to have camo sleeves
And the balaclava that's distinct
These two items along with the new sketch may just jog someone's memory

How do you know it is a balaclava?

 

[wary]

Thank you for bringing forward this article, reposting in the media thread for quick reference. Definitely worth a full read (again).

——

So, here’s where they were with all this DNA business last year, June of 2018:

Familial DNA search might unlock Delphi killer's identity
June 1, 2018

“If there is DNA evidence from Libby and Abby's killing, what if police ran a search using familial DNA? If the suspect's family member — a brother or father, for example — has been arrested or convicted of felony charges, familial DNA might be the break that's needed in the case that shook the country.

“Crime runs in families,” he said. “No one disputes that. Ask any beat cop.”“

Snip

“Recently asked about familial DNA searches and the homicide investigation into German and Williams' death, Carroll County Sheriff Tobe Leazenby said, “Obviously the answer hasn‘t come to the surface, yet.

“This is out of the box, so what can it hurt?”“

Snip

““That’s being discussed," Leazenby said of the outcome of Holland's call, "but there hasn’t been a decision made yet. It’s on the table.”

“It might help us reach success.””

Snip

“Meanwhile, if there's DNA from the Delphi killings, it's not been run through familial DNA search. Yet.”
June 1, 2018

An interesting article—and through most of it, they’re talking about ‘familial DNA’ as the older technology of checking for a family member in CODIS.

“Advances such as familial DNA searches and phenotype DNA searches are in the near future — perhaps as soon as two years, Holland said.”

And a year ago, they’re talking of that being two years in the future....

So, there’s no reason for us to be discouraged and to think that they must not have good DNA or they’d have come up with results already.

 

[wary]

JMO.

Adoption records don't matter. The adoptive family's name doesn't matter.

Let me try to explain it this way.

A and B adopt a child. They name it C. However, C's real bio parents are X and Y. C's DNA shows he is the child of X and Y through familial/autosomal DNA. In fact, he was named Z at birth.

So Z (under the name of C) has been living in the Delphi area for the past 25 years or so, presumably under the surname of A and B.

Let's say, Z becomes a suspect and LE wants his DNA. He refuses. So, LE tails him and pick up a napkin Z used to wipe his mouth at Subway. They find saliva DNA and the results show Z's match to hundreds of people but not to A and B.

No problem. Once the DNA trees are built, and the bio family is found, then the adoption records can be opened by subpoena because there is enough reason for a judge to sign off on a warrant due to the DNA results.

I don’t quite understand the point of this. If Z is a suspect for a serious crime, and they get his DNA from discarded material, I think that the legal system is unlikely to even care who his biological parents are.

I think that a more likely scenario is—the researchers have some DNA—they set up a huge family tree, working from the fourth cousins that they discovered. They end up with a lot of names of men of a reasonable age range—they find out who of them might have been in Delphi at the right time—they get their DNA from discarded material—and none of it matches!

So—what went wrong? Did they calculate the age range erroneously? Did they rule out someone who ‘couldn’t have been in Delphi that day’, but he really was? Or was the family tree messed up, due to adoption or the wrong father on the birth certificate?

I’m still not confident that a court will unseal adoption records for a fishing trip, which is what it would be if they didn’t have other information pointing to a suspect.

All this MOO

 

[Charlot123]

An interesting article—and through most of it, they’re talking about ‘familial DNA’ as the older technology of checking for a family member in CODIS.

“Advances such as familial DNA searches and phenotype DNA searches are in the near future — perhaps as soon as two years, Holland said.”

And a year ago, they’re talking of that being two years in the future....

So, there’s no reason for us to be discouraged and to think that they must not have good DNA or they’d have come up with results already.

The article you quote says, “crime runs in family”.

This alone is a bold statement. First, this type of weird crime, the Delphi crime, probably, doesn’t.

And second - last time I checked, Australia was a wonderful, safe, country, and how did it start?

 

[wary]

The article you quote says, “crime runs in family”.

This alone is a bold statement. First, this type of weird crime, the Delphi crime, probably, doesn’t.

And second - last time I checked, Australia was a wonderful, safe, country, and how did it start?

Interesting points. I agree that a Delphi-type crime isn’t likely to ‘run in families.’ That’s why I’ve been hoping for results from genetic genealogy through a system through GEDmatch.

However, I think that Australia is fairly irrelevant. (It’d be way off topic to discuss it, though.)

 

[Charlot123]

Just my opinion but the coat has been his for a very long time. Yes lots of people wear variations. I'm just north of the area. I see them I get it. But this one appears to have camo sleeves
And the balaclava that's distinct
These two items along with the new sketch may just jog someone's memory

I didn’t see a balaclava, but googled all the same

“Modern balaclavas are used in outdoor winter sports such as skiing, snowboarding, and snowmobiling to protect the face from wind and maintain warmth. They are also popular among motorcyclists and bicyclists. It is especially useful for balaclavas to have breathability when used in outdoor sports to prevent fogging of glasses and goggles. Breathable balaclavas are ideal for outdoor sports.”

“Firefighters wear a fire-resistant version made of Nomex with a face opening that is covered by their self-contained breathing apparatus (SCBA).

Electrical workers often wear an arc-flash rated version in conjunction with a face shield and other personal protective equipment (PPE) while working on energized equipment.

Race drivers In Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile sanctioned events must wear balaclavas made of fire-retardant material underneath their crash helmets. “

So if there was a balaclava, a chance of a guy liking to ski, snowboard and bike? A motorcyclist?
Firefighting/firesetting pops up here from time to time.

 

[Charlot123]

Interesting points. I agree that a Delphi-type crime isn’t likely to ‘run in families.’ That’s why I’ve been hoping for results from genetic genealogy through a system through GEDmatch.

However, I think that Australia is fairly irrelevant. (It’d be way off topic to discuss it, though.)

“Crime” in general is somewhat society-defined. So what runs as a “crime” in one generation might be totally “legal business” in the next one.

I, too, hope for Gedmatch results. I was their subscriber for a long time.

 

[MassGuy]

The article you quote says, “crime runs in family”.

This alone is a bold statement. First, this type of weird crime, the Delphi crime, probably, doesn’t.

And second - last time I checked, Australia was a wonderful, safe, country, and how did it start?

The premise that “crime runs in the family,” is proven by the statistics.

If one of your parents is a criminal, you are far more likely to become a criminal yourself.

Kids tend to follow in the footsteps of their parents.

This article cites a Berkeley study, that found that kids who have parents who are criminals, are more than twice as likely to become criminals themselves.

So the statement may be bold, but it is true.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/phys.org/news/2017-11-children-criminal-parents-greater-chance.amp

 

[margarita25]

Jumping off the discussion, I did some googling and came across some interesting articles; there is much documentation on this subject.

A few snippets from the first few google results:

“While reporting on criminal justice for The New York Times, journalist Fox Butterfield was in and out of prisons a lot. One thing he saw struck him. “In a number of places I visited there were fathers and sons in the same cell,” he said. “I was really taken by this, and I started writing about how crime runs in the families.”

Snip

“This fits with the research, Butterfield added. “I kept stumbling across these studies,” he said, “showing these incredibly high rates of crime being passed down through families.” For years, scholars have studied risk factors for crime, including poverty, lack of education, and growing up in dangerous neighborhoods, but, said Butterfield, “all kids start out their lives within their family.””

—-

Now, FTR, of course not all people who have criminals in their families or are raised by criminals take the same course. Many want to be just the opposite, MOO.

—-

Back to the studies (interesting stuff, imo)...

“This intergenerational transmission of violence was first documented in the 1940s when a husband-and-wife team at Harvard Law School foundthat two-thirds of boys in the Boston area sent by a court to a reformatory had a father who had been arrested; 45 percent also had a mother who had been arrested. And, in 2007, the Justice Department’s Bureau of Justice Statistics concluded that half of the roughly 800,000 parents behind bars have a close relative who has previously been incarcerated.”

When Crime Is a Family Affair

—-

A Neuroscientist Uncovers A Dark Secret

“The criminal brain has always held a fascination for James Fallon. For nearly 20 years, the neuroscientist at the University of California-Irvine has studied the brains of psychopaths. He studies the biological basis for behavior, and one of his specialties is to try to figure out how a killer's brain differs from yours and mine.

About four years ago, Fallon made a startling discovery. It happened during a conversation with his then 88-year-old mother, Jenny, at a family barbecue.

"I said, 'Jim, why don't you find out about your father's relatives?' " Jenny Fallon recalls. "I think there were some cuckoos back there."

Fallon investigated.

"There's a whole lineage of very violent people -- killers," he says.

One of his direct great-grandfathers, Thomas Cornell, was hanged in 1667 for murdering his mother. That line of Cornells produced seven other alleged murderers, including Lizzy Borden. "Cousin Lizzy," as Fallon wryly calls her, was accused (and controversially acquitted) of killing her father and stepmother with an ax in Fall River, Mass., in 1882.”

Snip

“After learning his violent family history, he examined the images and compared them with the brains of psychopaths. His wife's scan was normal. His mother: normal. His siblings: normal. His children: normal.

"And I took a look at my own PET scan and saw something disturbing that I did not talk about," he says.

What he didn't want to reveal was that his orbital cortex looks inactive.

"If you look at the PET scan, I look just like one of those killers."”

Snip

“Fallon calls up another slide on his computer. It has a list of family members' names, and next to them, the results of the genotyping. Everyone in his family has the low-aggression variant of the MAO-A gene, except for one person.

"You see that? I'm 100 percent. I have the pattern, the risky pattern," he says, then pauses. "In a sense, I'm a born killer."”
—-

Along the same lines as related to juveniles, from NCJRS.gov report (we have no idea how BG was raised or what kind of family he comes from. Just an article for some brain food for advocates, etc. If too off topic, please delete.)

“FOREWORD
The family is the fundamental building block of human society. Consequently, the foundation of our Nation is only as strong as America's families. There is much to be learned about the effects of family life on delinquency and crime. This report provides a good base for what is known and what is yet to be learned. I encourage those most directly involved in helping children reach adulthood to read this report with an eye to addressing these variables in their prevention and intervention efforts.
The role of the family in the prevention and treatment of juvenile delinquency has concerned the Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention (OJJDP) from our inception. The report you are about to read makes a major contribution to our understanding of this critical topic. It describes not only how parental supervision and other aspects of sound family life prevent delinquency, but also how the absence of parental involvement, or even negative parental influences, may promote its development.
The home is the natural school for children. It is certainly the first. Through bonding with their parents, children internalize the moral values that are likely to shape their future conduct. Accordingly, as the report observes, "Children who are rejected by their parents, grow up in homes with considerable conflict, and are inadequately supervised are at greatest risk of becoming delinquents."
Family Life addresses not only the family life of children who may commit juvenile offenses but the family life of adults who may commit criminal acts. It examines such intriguing questions as whether being married or being a parent reduces the likelihood of criminal activity and whether the family ties of prisoners assist their rehabilitation and return to the community.
The family is under siege. The chance that a child will reach adulthood raised by its first parents has never been lower. OJJDP is committed to strengthening the family, not simply to prevent delinquency, but also to protect the children of our Nation.
Gerald (Jerry) P. Regier Acting Administrator”

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/Digitization/140517NCJRS.pdf

—-

 

[Charlot123]

The premise that “crime runs in the family,” is proven by the statistics.

If one of your parents is a criminal, you are far more likely to become a criminal yourself.

Kids tend to follow in the footsteps of their parents.

This article cites a Berkeley study, that found that kids who have parents who are criminals, are more than twice as likely to become criminals themselves.

So the statement may be bold, but it is true.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/phys.org/news/2017-11-children-criminal-parents-greater-chance.amp

Super interesting article, but the way I understood it, the connection was statistically stronger in the US than in the Netherlands or Denmark? And the US adopts harsher punishment for crimes, than these two countries, they said? So with the difference between countries, there might be less genetic, and more social issues at play. I viewed the article as the good argument for certain changes.

 

[Sneaker33]

Carter wasn’t that adamant about that. He was indicating that it was probable that he, or someone close to him had been interviewed.

As for obtaining his DNA, standard protocol is to obtain it from trash, or some other discarded item (if a suspect refuses to provide a sample).

If a match is developed, then a warrant can be obtained to compel him to provide a sample, which would then meet the burden to hold up in court.

I am curious if you recall the murder of Corrine Flynn, a mother with MS, from Boston in 1991. I had worked one summer with her prior. It took a few years but police were able to obtain blood sample from suspect willingly. Recall it was in Reader's Digest how they obtained sample. Also realized paper had reported body found in bathtub when actually was in bedroom. Tried to find the RD article with no luck but found interesting PDF to download on homicides and killers. If anyone interested do keyword search with above victim name, homicide and DNA.

 

[margarita25]

I forgot to add the link source for the first article quoted in the above post:
How crime runs in families

—

Yeah I’ve really gone down a rabbit hole now, the role of family as related to criminal behavior has now led me further into the role of genes...posting a few snippets for those who may be interested in molecular biology as it potentially relates to criminal behavior and even some legal cases:

Can Your Genes Make You Kill?
“To save his life, his legal team took an unusual approach, never before admitted in a capital-murder case. They sent a sample of Waldroup’s blood to the molecular genetics lab at Vanderbilt University in Nashville. Lab techs there were told to look at a specific gene. Sure enough, they found Waldroup had a genetic variant on his X chromosome, one that coded the enzyme monoamine oxidase-A (MAOA).”

Snip

“Partly for this reason, the study of behavioural genetics remains a controversial topic, with disagreement not just over the science itself, but even more so about the therapeutic, societal and legal implications.

Too much might have been made too soon of early findings that made correlations between alleles of certain genes and tendencies to antisocial or criminal behaviour. Indeed, most researchers in the field were appalled by the decision of an Italian appeal court in 2009 to cut the sentence of a convicted murderer by one year on the grounds that he had a version of the MAOA gene, which has been linked to aggression and violence (Feresin, 2009). There is equal dismay over some US courts that went the other way and accepted genetic factors as evidence for the prosecution, leading to higher sentences on the basis that people with particular alleles cannot be cured and will remain a risk to society for longer.

“Taking genetic factors into account when sentencing is plain stupid, unless we are talking about something like Down's syndrome or some other syndrome that drastically reduces intelligence and executive functioning,” insisted Anthony Walsh from the Criminal Justice Department at Boise State University in Idaho, USA. “This is the kind of “genetic determinism” that liberals have worried themselves silly over. They just have to take one or two neuroscience and genetic classes to dispense with their ‘my genes/neurons' made me do it. Nothing relieves one of the obligation to behave civilized.””

EMBO Reports
The European Molecular Biology Organization
The psycho gene
Philip Hunter
The psycho gene

 

[JustEve]

so if he was behind them, and Libby was facing away from him, how could they see him approaching? Or did he pass by them, and then turn back?

The girls were headed from NW towards SE end of the bridge. BG moved in the same direction as the girls, behind them.
At the end of the bridge, Libby turned around, towards NW, to take a pic of Abby, and that is when she, I suppose, noticed BG following them.

 

[JustEve]

He should be in custody. Unless, 1) they know he will not escape anywhere; 2) they are sure he will not strike again; 3) maybe, he is in a mental institution, with a policeman 24-7?

I completely agree with this! I was just thinking the same .

 

[JustEve]

Re. the Delphi case: I simply hope that one of the girls scratched him bad enough, and there are epithelial cells or maybe, blood, left under her nails (and if he cleansed the area, and there are none - this is the first proof that insanity defense won’t work for him, that he knew what he was doing and that there is zero remorse).

It seriously might be the situation when there is some DNA left, but not good enough, but in these two years, science has moved far enough to allow to work with what they have.

And my suspicion, that the perp might be adopted, is still viable, in my mind.

Again, I couldn´t agree more, especially on the last part of your post.

 

[JustEve]

JMO.

Adoption records don't matter. The adoptive family's name doesn't matter.

Let me try to explain it this way.

A and B adopt a child. They name it C. However, C's real bio parents are X and Y. C's DNA shows he is the child of X and Y through familial/autosomal DNA. In fact, he was named Z at birth.

So Z (under the name of C) has been living in the Delphi area for the past 25 years or so, presumably under the surname of A and B.

Let's say, Z becomes a suspect and LE wants his DNA. He refuses. So, LE tails him and pick up a napkin Z used to wipe his mouth at Subway. They find saliva DNA and the results show Z's match to hundreds of people but not to A and B.

No problem. Once the DNA trees are built, and the bio family is found, then the adoption records can be opened by subpoena because there is enough reason for a judge to sign off on a warrant due to the DNA results.

Thank you for sharing this important information in such an understandable way!

 

[JustEve]

What about embryo adoption? Is it open, do you know?

What if he were adopted from Eastern Europe? In the late 80-es and 90-es there were a lot. Then, it might be a dead end.

(But of course, at least DNA from the napkin matches, so they know it is him, so they’ll nail him sooner or later).

I´m not sure that embrio adoption from Eastern Europe was possible back then, especially if you´re referring to ex- communist countries.

 

[JustEve]

Jumping off the discussion, I did some googling and came across some interesting articles; there is much documentation on this subject.

A few snippets from the first few google results:

“While reporting on criminal justice for The New York Times, journalist Fox Butterfield was in and out of prisons a lot. One thing he saw struck him. “In a number of places I visited there were fathers and sons in the same cell,” he said. “I was really taken by this, and I started writing about how crime runs in the families.”

Snip

“This fits with the research, Butterfield added. “I kept stumbling across these studies,” he said, “showing these incredibly high rates of crime being passed down through families.” For years, scholars have studied risk factors for crime, including poverty, lack of education, and growing up in dangerous neighborhoods, but, said Butterfield, “all kids start out their lives within their family.””

—-

Now, FTR, of course not all people who have criminals in their families or are raised by criminals take the same course. Many want to be just the opposite, MOO.

—-

Back to the studies (interesting stuff, imo)...

“This intergenerational transmission of violence was first documented in the 1940s when a husband-and-wife team at Harvard Law School foundthat two-thirds of boys in the Boston area sent by a court to a reformatory had a father who had been arrested; 45 percent also had a mother who had been arrested. And, in 2007, the Justice Department’s Bureau of Justice Statistics concluded that half of the roughly 800,000 parents behind bars have a close relative who has previously been incarcerated.”

When Crime Is a Family Affair

—-

A Neuroscientist Uncovers A Dark Secret

“The criminal brain has always held a fascination for James Fallon. For nearly 20 years, the neuroscientist at the University of California-Irvine has studied the brains of psychopaths. He studies the biological basis for behavior, and one of his specialties is to try to figure out how a killer's brain differs from yours and mine.

About four years ago, Fallon made a startling discovery. It happened during a conversation with his then 88-year-old mother, Jenny, at a family barbecue.

"I said, 'Jim, why don't you find out about your father's relatives?' " Jenny Fallon recalls. "I think there were some cuckoos back there."

Fallon investigated.

"There's a whole lineage of very violent people -- killers," he says.

One of his direct great-grandfathers, Thomas Cornell, was hanged in 1667 for murdering his mother. That line of Cornells produced seven other alleged murderers, including Lizzy Borden. "Cousin Lizzy," as Fallon wryly calls her, was accused (and controversially acquitted) of killing her father and stepmother with an ax in Fall River, Mass., in 1882.”

Snip

“After learning his violent family history, he examined the images and compared them with the brains of psychopaths. His wife's scan was normal. His mother: normal. His siblings: normal. His children: normal.

"And I took a look at my own PET scan and saw something disturbing that I did not talk about," he says.

What he didn't want to reveal was that his orbital cortex looks inactive.

"If you look at the PET scan, I look just like one of those killers."”

Snip

“Fallon calls up another slide on his computer. It has a list of family members' names, and next to them, the results of the genotyping. Everyone in his family has the low-aggression variant of the MAO-A gene, except for one person.

"You see that? I'm 100 percent. I have the pattern, the risky pattern," he says, then pauses. "In a sense, I'm a born killer."”
—-

Along the same lines as related to juveniles, from NCJRS.gov report (we have no idea how BG was raised or what kind of family he comes from. Just an article for some brain food for advocates, etc. If too off topic, please delete.)

“FOREWORD
The family is the fundamental building block of human society. Consequently, the foundation of our Nation is only as strong as America's families. There is much to be learned about the effects of family life on delinquency and crime. This report provides a good base for what is known and what is yet to be learned. I encourage those most directly involved in helping children reach adulthood to read this report with an eye to addressing these variables in their prevention and intervention efforts.
The role of the family in the prevention and treatment of juvenile delinquency has concerned the Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention (OJJDP) from our inception. The report you are about to read makes a major contribution to our understanding of this critical topic. It describes not only how parental supervision and other aspects of sound family life prevent delinquency, but also how the absence of parental involvement, or even negative parental influences, may promote its development.
The home is the natural school for children. It is certainly the first. Through bonding with their parents, children internalize the moral values that are likely to shape their future conduct. Accordingly, as the report observes, "Children who are rejected by their parents, grow up in homes with considerable conflict, and are inadequately supervised are at greatest risk of becoming delinquents."
Family Life addresses not only the family life of children who may commit juvenile offenses but the family life of adults who may commit criminal acts. It examines such intriguing questions as whether being married or being a parent reduces the likelihood of criminal activity and whether the family ties of prisoners assist their rehabilitation and return to the community.
The family is under siege. The chance that a child will reach adulthood raised by its first parents has never been lower. OJJDP is committed to strengthening the family, not simply to prevent delinquency, but also to protect the children of our Nation.
Gerald (Jerry) P. Regier Acting Administrator”

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/Digitization/140517NCJRS.pdf

Great post, Margarita! I enjoyed reading it. Thank you very much.

 

[FinePrint]

After re watching the 2017 PC I've pretty much changed my thinking in many ways.

Although Carter was not as animated as he was a couple of weeks ago in the first PC in 2017 he was pretty passionate and used much of the same language.

I no longer think "The Shack" has any relevance at all. I think it was something Carter inserted basically because he watch the movie the night before. He said "we are just beginning" back then as well and also made reference that the girls are no longer as how the killer left them.

There may have been some things scripted by experts in the latest press conference but I think much of it is just Carter. I think the reason, as mentioned by a few here, for Carters intensity is because something has caused them to believe that for 2 years they have been going down the wrong path. I thinks Carters demeanor is that of anguish.

 

[Tealgrove]

Every morning for over two years the first thing I do is check in here in the hopes I will see "ARREST" at the tope of this thread. It's the first thing. I don't even have my coffee before I come here.

I didn't expect anything to happen in the 2 weeks. I think we were all so hopeful that it was a sign but when you're desperate you read thing into words that really isn't there.

I do think they're close. I think justice is coming but it's going to take a while.

This needs to be done RIGHT. No jumping ahead and being sloppy.

But I must admit, I'm tired of waiting. I can't imagine how the family feels.

Maybe "Today Will Be The Day". I'm hopeful.

MOO