IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #17

[Koshka]

I'm having a hard time with those statistics. I volunteer in women's prisons, in groups of about 15 at a time where they discuss their childhoods/families/backgrounds, and I can truthfully say I've only met 1 woman who came from what could be considered a mainstream, healthy nurturing background. All of them talk about mothers with strings of men coming through who abused them, being abandoned by their parents and raised by feeble great grand parents, growing up in foster care because both parents were incarcerated, etc. It's really hard to believe that coming from an abusive and neglectful background only raises adult's likelihood of being incarcerated by 28%.

And that's because your sample consists of one group of people - prisoners. You're not seeing the other 78% who are gainfully employed/contributing citizens.

 

[Aropizt]

JMO

Been thinking about the 13th and the possibility that the Iowa girls may have been killed from the same person.

Even if not the same perp the 13th seems an odd coincidence.

Been trying to think what the 13th day of the month could mean. Wondering if that is a pay day for people who get paid twice a month?

Thats the only thing I could come up with. Which could mean the person did have a job and got paid and maybe bought some final supplies before they went out looking for victims. They may have had a night job since they were out during the daytime.

If government benefits I think those are monthly. Not sure if middle of the month would be a typical payday for government benefits. Lets say disability payments for example. Could the middle of the month be a normal payday for any type of government benefits or do they always happen at end of month.

Just trying to figure out why the perp was out on the 13th in both cases. There has to be a reason why the 13th was the day he chose to attack in both cases.

Even if the perp is different in Iowa case I think the reason the 13th was used is because of the same reason like maybe getting paid by either government check or had a job with bi-monthly payments.

I'm sure someone has already answered but all forms of social security benefits (for both disabled and retirees) are paid out on the 3rd of the month (so nope not the end of the month at all there) or if the 3rd falls on a weekend or holiday then whatever the last weekday before that is (so, as someone on social security disability, I've been paid on the first if the third was a Sunday or even sooner sometimes with Christmas and such). So no relation there.

Don't know about other benefits outside of disability and social security but assuming it's similar. 13th is a weird time to pay someone who, like those on disability or other government benefits, only get paid once a month.

That said, 13 is an interesting number. Some people find it very unlucky of course (there are buildings built without 13th floors. A hospital in my area doesn't have one!) but other folks love the number and even consider it lucky (if I'm not mistaken Taylor Swift is fond of the number, so just a random example). Maybe, if this was the same killer (so both happened on the 13th then? That's an interesting catch there) this is just a number they like? I don't really think it's pay related since most people get paid on Friday's and government benefits (in my state this is true also for food stamps, as well, and some other related financial benefits as far as I'm aware, but would be interesting to know what's that like in Indiana because some benefits are state based not national like disability or social security) are tied to a date not day of the week but seems to be beginning of the month. So barring some Indiana (or Iowa? That's where the other case happened, right?) I just don't think it's financially related.

Besides, these types of heinous folk have no qualms about killing innocent young women/ children so let's assume if they really needed or wanted to, they'd just steal any necessary supplies. They aren't operating under normal human morals or laws here so I somehow also don't think this type would be waiting for the money to go out and commit their double homicide!


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[Supaplex101]

When I see that second photo the white things under his chin are not hoodie drawstrings, in the second photo I see plastic goggles around his neck that you wear for woodwork or strimming.

 

[WebSight]

Thank you for your reply. I know every time I think I have this figured out, I start back at square 1. It does make sense that he would make his move on the SW end. Guess that kills my theory that he snuck in through the back of the cemetery unless he followed the tree line to the NE side of the bridge. Obviously had he come in the SW side from the cemetery he would have had to cross the water and his pants would have been wet in the pic. Unless he came from that private driveway. I just can't imagine trying to corral two "hostages" through water. Aye aye aye.


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Oh #1 I am with you there - the water, really? How does that even make sense? What are we missing?

Hey, just had a thought!! We are assuming that he did not cross the bridge from the north end HOURS before the girls arrived! What if he did come from the cemetery, walk around to the north entrance, cross the bridge casually north to south and lay in wait on the south side?

 

[Jabarn]

Thank you for your reply. I know every time I think I have this figured out, I start back at square 1. It does make sense that he would make his move on the SW end. Guess that kills my theory that he snuck in through the back of the cemetery unless he followed the tree line to the NE side of the bridge. Obviously had he come in the SW side from the cemetery he would have had to cross the water and his pants would have been wet in the pic. Unless he came from that private driveway. I just can't imagine trying to corral two "hostages" through water. Aye aye aye.


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I know, Nana... me too. I have leaned toward they went down the south side of the bridge, because that's what made sense to me in the beginning. I also felt at the time, and after other posters commented, the water would've been very deep (waste to chest deep) crossing Deer Creek directly from the south end of the bridge to where their bodies were found. Now after reading other posts, it may have been the water was not so deep, at least in spots, so I don't know. Your pictures helped me see the north end way to the other side of Deer Creek is possible too.

 

[layer]

Unless he came from that private driveway.

That's not a private driveway, it's actually a public street (625) that dead ends at the house.

 

[Hatfield]

I disagree, I think he had this planned out to an almost obsessive degree. Replaying the fantasy over and over. Waiting, stalking & pouncing when the time was right. I think he may have even came up with a mental script of sorts on what to say and do.. "Go down the hill... Cross the creek..." do this do that. Like a director/leading actor in his own sick movie. The area they ended up is very unusual, especially if they did in fact cross the creek. How did he know that would be such a well isolated area and exactly how to access it? The area is perfect because on the north side it's surrounded by hills and the south side is blocked by a creek. I don't think you go into such an area just by accident, you have to be comfortable enough with the area to not risk encountering other hikers, houses, etc.. If this was his first time in this area, he's a professional and at least quickly scouted the area to find the location but I really doubt that.

Any way you look at it, I think you'd have to be very confident in your surroundings to take those girls to that specific location.

Absolutely
Totally agree.

IMO
This person had been there before in that exact area.

He knew the hill went up pretty steep on one side and the water was on the other side. They were far enough down away from the bridge where nobody would normally walk that way towards them.

I wish LE would at least let us know the motive because I am still not sure if the motive was even sexual or not. Im still wondering if it was some form of hatred. Like could the perp have been mad at them or mad at someone else who was there not too long ago and he may have thought these were the same kids.

If we knew if it was a non-sexual motive then I think that may help narrow down some possibilities. The problem if it ends up being a sexual motive then that could still mean a hatred motive was involved too.

 

[Hambone1480]

I don't quite understand why it seems unlikely to some for BG to have turned around and simply follow the girls back to the North end. There was no need to accost them right on the bridge because the girls had no way to escape anyway. All he needed to do was follow them.

They were close to the southern end when taking the pictures, he comes towards them (either from the South or from the North) and the girls decide to make their way back to the North end. If he came from the South, he simply follows them. What can they do? It's hard to run on this bridge. So they walk, he walks behind them. Similarly, if he came from the North towards them, the girls start their way back to the North end and as soon as they meet up with him he turns around and follows rather than continuing South, which is maybe what the girls had thought would happen. So he just follows them until they all reach the North end of the bridge and then he pulls his weapon.

This is how I think it happened. jmo

You very well could be right, but I personally will disagree with you on this. I totally think it all took place right there on the South end as he knew nobody was coming directly behind him and he wanted to get them down off the trail quickly so that nobody coming the other way would run into them. If you are him, why wait and follow without knowing how many people are going to come across the bridge from the north side, serving as potential witnesses to your crime? You also take the chance of waiting, following, getting to the other side, and then coming across more people on that side of the trail when you make your move.
I honestly think he saw his opportunity on the south side and took it. You are gambling when you are gonna commit a crime like this, and you are gonna go immediately when you see the coast is clear. You aren't going to risk anymore people stumbling across him and the girls by waiting any longer.
God Bless these two sweet children and may they look over their grieving family and friends, providing them comfort in the tough days ahead. Rest in Peace ANGELS Abby and Libby.

 

[Maplesyrup]

Several people have speculated that the girls were strangled. I am wondering how they were clothed for the community viewing/service at the school? I don't know how to say this other than to say if indeed that was the cause of death, they would need to wear clothing with high necks. Does anyone know?

 

[dredre]

Just wanted to say how much I appreciate the Websleuths community, If you want to know why the TOA is so strict around here just go and check out some of the wild stuff that goes on in SM groups. It will literally make your head spin and make you come running back here for comfort. SM groups are a dark, dark winding road of wild theories of speculation and accusations. Cheers to the Mods and veteran Sleuthers that make this a top notch and reputable place to be!

Same. I ventured in there for about 5 min the other night. Had a really hard time sleeping that night. Left almost immediately.


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[Supaplex101]

Several people have speculated that the girls were strangled. I am wondering how they were clothed for the community viewing/service at the school? I don't know how to say this other than to say if indeed that was the cause of death, they would need to wear clothing with high necks. Does anyone know?

I think someone earlier stated his sister was murdered and had her throat cut and still managed to have a viewing service. Make up etc.

 

[Gardenista]

Thank you for your reply. I know every time I think I have this figured out, I start back at square 1. It does make sense that he would make his move on the SW end. Guess that kills my theory that he snuck in through the back of the cemetery unless he followed the tree line to the NE side of the bridge. Obviously had he come in the SW side from the cemetery he would have had to cross the water and his pants would have been wet in the pic. Unless he came from that private driveway. I just can't imagine trying to corral two "hostages" through water. Aye aye aye.


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One thought I had is maybe (knowing the creek is shallow) they tried to make a run for it but eventually he caught up with them.

 

[WebSight]

That's not a private driveway, it's actually a public street (625) that dead ends at the house.

Even more significant then - if the perp did use a car, then he would have every right to be on that road just under the SE exit from the bridge = no one would question a car being there.

I know, I know, it just brings up a whole myriad of other issues about where the girls ended up and how they got there. Depressing, really.

 

[Deltucky]

When I see that second photo the white things under his chin are not hoodie drawstrings, in the second photo I see plastic goggles around his neck that you wear for woodwork or strimming.

Strimming. LOL. Your'e in the UK somewhere aren't you? Small engine guy in the US here, but I've heard UK videos refer to strimmers. Most people here say weedeater, but that's actually a trade name for a homeowner grade string trimmer. I just had to comment, hope you aren't offended.

 

[#1nana]

Oh #1 I am with you there - the water, really? How does that even make sense? What are we missing?

Hey, just had a thought!! We are assuming that he did not cross the bridge from the north end HOURS before the girls arrived! What if he did come from the cemetery, walk around to the north entrance, cross the bridge casually north to south and lay in wait on the south side?

But how did he know they would go all the way down to the sound end? The bridge is terrifying imo. I would assume two children wouldn't go across. If that's the case though, he had to have known they were coming there and arrived before they did. That would rule out randomly seeing them cross the bridge over Hoosier Highway and turning around, imo he couldn't get down there and to the SW end before them. The water. The water is just the weird link right now.


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[GGE]

One thought I had is maybe (knowing the creek is shallow) they tried to make a run for it but eventually he caught up with them.

NiN posted official data of the creek depth the day they went missing and I believe it was around 3 feet and a few inches, which IMO would be tricky to run in.. that's waist high or so on someone 5'3" (I believe they were around that - my - height, RIP).

 

[terpstra1]

I don't take child abuse lightly, but most abused children do not grow up to be child murderers. There is no excuse for what this perp did. None.

I was in now way making excuses for him. If it's true I think it should put into the record. No matter what your life has been or what you've gone through is an excuse for any crime.

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[Supaplex101]

Strimming. LOL. Your'e in the UK somewhere aren't you? Small engine guy in the US here, but I've heard UK videos refer to strimmers. Most people here say weedeater, but that's actually a trade name for a homeowner grade string trimmer. I just had to comment, hope you aren't offended.

Weedeater sounds odd! Not offended. Been on forum for years just my old username wouldn't work. Yes uk.

 

[cluciano63]

I'm sure someone has already answered but all forms of social security benefits (for both disabled and retirees) are paid out on the 3rd of the month (so nope not the end of the month at all there) or if the 3rd falls on a weekend or holiday then whatever the last weekday before that is (so, as someone on social security disability, I've been paid on the first if the third was a Sunday or even sooner sometimes with Christmas and such). So no relation there.

Don't know about other benefits outside of disability and social security but assuming it's similar. 13th is a weird time to pay someone who, like those on disability or other government benefits, only get paid once a month.

That said, 13 is an interesting number. Some people find it very unlucky of course (there are buildings built without 13th floors. A hospital in my area doesn't have one!) but other folks love the number and even consider it lucky (if I'm not mistaken Taylor Swift is fond of the number, so just a random example). Maybe, if this was the same killer (so both happened on the 13th then? That's an interesting catch there) this is just a number they like? I don't really think it's pay related since most people get paid on Friday's and government benefits (in my state this is true also for food stamps, as well, and some other related financial benefits as far as I'm aware, but would be interesting to know what's that like in Indiana because some benefits are state based not national like disability or social security) are tied to a date not day of the week but seems to be beginning of the month. So barring some Indiana (or Iowa? That's where the other case happened, right?) I just don't think it's financially related.

Besides, these types of heinous folk have no qualms about killing innocent young women/ children so let's assume if they really needed or wanted to, they'd just steal any necessary supplies. They aren't operating under normal human morals or laws here so I somehow also don't think this type would be waiting for the money to go out and commit their double homicide!


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I am on SSI for disability and my check is paid the 2nd Wednesday of the month, so between the 8-13th, depending. Just FYI. Has always been that way for me.

Back to topic at hand, I am sure I am missing something but I can't see much relevancy after the fact as to where he abducted the girls, who was where in relation to the bridge, etc...

Also, I am not seeing how LE determined he was likely hitching rides, obviously, since they have not said, but do not see how that assumption leads to links with other crimes. If anything, a lone male with a car would be able to cover more terrirory, Imo. If they are certain he hitched a ride, they should provide more details, i.e on what road he was seen and/or picked up. May bus drivers saw him, or other passers-by. The vagueness of it all is more confusing than helpful.

Anyway jmo.

 

[WestieMom]

Are you local? If not, can a local chime in about walkers?

I totally get that many small towns are not filled with walkers - they would stand out.

But Delphi is connected to an extensive park system. Seems like they are walkers there. Am I wrong? Could a man walk around without calling too much attention to himself?

jmo

I live in Indianapolis, Indiana... "the big city" and we have people walking EVERYWHERE!!!! it really is not unusual, at all.