IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #65

[Yemelyan]

There are so many intelligent people here. And we all want the same thing, to bring attention to this case so the person or persons responsible can be brought to justice.

I have followed this case from the beginning and I just keep mulling over the facts as we know them and wondering about the threads of the crime that still escape us...has he killed before? Did he go there looking for preteens or is he an opportunistic type of killer? Are there unreported offenses against children or women in his past? And so forth.

Based on all the interviews with LE that we have, how positive do you think they are that these murders are unrelated to other unsolved ones? I know they said specifically that they are aware of similarities with Lyric Cook and Elizabeth Collins but that so far they have not connected them. Did they also completely rule out connections with other known Indiana cases? I'm trying to recall what exactly has been given to the media on this particular topic....Is there any point to looking at other unsolved abduction/murders in the state?

Thanks for anyone who can sum up for me or point me to a post where this was discussed!

 

[Shiressleuth]

It's been confirmed that neither the Meth theory or the the theory that a vehicle was involved in the abduction, is based in known fact.

RSBM
Could you please provide a link to this fact?
I am wondering why RL's vehicle was part of a search warrant in this investigation if a vehicle was of no interest. Also, RL mentioned the girls possibly getting in a car during one of his interviews. The other reference was LE asking whether anyone had seen or picked up a hitchhiker. That's three vehicle refs I know about but perhaps you have a more recent update that I have not seen, that now definitely rules out the perp in a vehicle.
Also, the theft of ingredients for meth production has previously been mentioned as a reason for perps lurking around farmers and landowners barns. RL himself has previously reported intruders in his property so the meth angle has also not been completely ruled out. But again I may have missed that update too.

 

[Shiressleuth]

That's how I read it as well.

Yeay I agree too. Couldn't see the point of taking or asking for samples otherwise.

 

[lonetraveler]

You bring up good points, and I will take on your challenge.

I have never believed the girls crossed the creek.

It's my belief the perp planned these murders way in advance. In fact, I think he planned everything down to the very last detail, including the route to where their bodies were found.

He was not about to leave something that critically important to the elements of running water. The girls could have slipped on wet rocks, or even managed to get away from him downstream. They could have been seen by casual observers from the bridge or other vantage points.

He wasn't going to risk that!

More importantly, HE could have slipped on wet rocks, or dropped any of his weapons, concealed beneath his jacket. He had waited too long for this day. He was not about to risk his plans to the unpredictable elements of the water.

I agree with DeDee. I don't think Sgt. Holeman was saying they DID cross the creek. On the contrary, I think he was actually pointing out all the obstacles as to why they didn't.

I'm a person who often reads between the lines. For whatever reason, I don't think he minded if this was not spelled out clearly. That's my impression anyway.

I realize people interpret his words differently, and they may be correct.

You asked how I think he got them to the other side? The exact way you think did not happen - by automobile.

I believe he had his car parked on that private road located off the south end of the bridge. Though he knew it posed a slight chance of being seen, I believe he had checked out the nearby homes ahead of time, and saw no imminent risk. He knew his car wouldn't be there very long. This crime would be quick.

It was carried out with military precision. I believe the 'down the hill,' led straight to his car where he quickly hustled the girls into the trunk. Just mere minutes after leaving the bridge.

Imo, that's why no one saw or heard them after he grabbed them.

I think he did drive them around to the other side, hence the 'phone pinging around town' statement made by Libby's father. I know various towers can have the same phone pinging while the phone is not moving, but I don't believe that's what happened here. I think the phone was actually in transit.

I don't have any article or media source to back this up. It's my opinion only, but it fits my theory of how carefully planned this crime was. The perp made sure he covered all his bases ahead of time.

So the girls crossing the water makes absolutely no sense to me, from the perp's point of view.

Again, I may be completely wrong. There may actually be 'nothing' to even be read between the lines. Wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong, for sure.

You asked though for the 'why and how' theory from anyone who believed differently, so this is my opinion. Based solely upon my gut feeling only.

Want to add too, I'm not at all convinced it's just one perp either. I thought it was for a long time, but now I'm not so sure...

I can't imagine BG kidnapping two girls, driving away and then disposing the girls close to the same area from where he kidnapped them. I would think that after kidnapping them with the intention to hurt and murder them, he would not leave only to dispose of them near the area. Just my two cents worth.

Sent from my HTCD100LVWPP using Tapatalk

 

[Shiressleuth]

I recently saw an interview with a family member, she was asked the direct question of who was to pick them up at the bridge. She said that her father was to have picked them up. She even detailed that going to walk there was a last-minute decision, and when she asked permission to go she said her sister had offered to take them but someone else needed to pick them up.

She called her father and asked if he would be able to pick them up at the bridge. He agreed, and so off they went with her sister.

i will look for that link! And come back and edit my post to add.

The GH debunking video posted here has alteady confirmed this recently, so don't worry if you can't find your source.

 

[Sleuthin' n TX]

No offense intended however, HAT - Not only popular with delivery people, but with heavy equipment operators, warehouse workers, hipsters, golfers, etc...we should QUIT focusing on the hat - which is going to lead nowhere but down the fairy tale path - because we don't have the ACTUAL HAT style! IMOO

I was in Mass. And my impression was that they were local. In fact, I had a friend, not a driver, but one who dressed very similar to the suspect, and he was someone who loaded product off and on trucks.

I'm surprised this style of working-man's of attire isn't prevalent in Maine or NH. I kind of associate it with small towns near the coast as well--Salem Mass, the Cape. But I've never lived in either Maine or NH, so I'll take your word for it.

It could be that many of the drivers I saw were traveling from state to state. That's very possible. I do recall a few local pubs and hanging places where every guy pretty much looked like the suspect.

It's so hard to know, though. Where I live now, in Google land, you don't see men dress this way, at all. Which is why the flat-cap stood out. It is so unusual for where I'm living now, for even working class guys to dress like that-but climate may also have something to do with this. And in the south, where I have a lot of family, I've never seen this attire. Not saying it doesn't happen, it's just not common.

 

[htiff]

RSBM
Could you please provide a link to this fact?
I am wondering why RL's vehicle was part of a search warrant in this investigation if a vehicle was of no interest. Also, RL mentioned the girls possibly getting in a car during one of his interviews. The other reference was LE asking whether anyone had seen or picked up a hitchhiker. That's three vehicle refs I know about but perhaps you have a more recent update that I have not seen, that now definitely rules out the perp in a vehicle.
Also, the theft of ingredients for meth production has previously been mentioned as a reason for perps lurking around farmers and landowners barns. RL himself has previously reported intruders in his property so the meth angle has also not been completely ruled out. But again I may have missed that update too.

If you look back on this thread, those who have invested a great deal of time in some of these theories admitted there was no factual basis for them. In terms of RL, he has pretty much been ruled out as a suspect in this case--from what I've read. The fact that a search warrant was executed on his property would make sense, given that the girls were found on his property. Have you actually read the probable cause for the warrant, because it may have been related to something else. But the fact that his vehicle may have been searched (actually, I never read that his vehicle was searched, can you provide a link on this? I'd love to read that.)---this doesn't mean that LE believes a vehicle was involved in the crime. It may just have been a search in order to make certain RL had no involvement--and again, with the girls being discovered on his property, they might feel it was prudent to check every possible place where DNA, blood or a weapon, etc, might be discovered. I really don't know. I haven't seen much on RL--he seems to be more fodder for conspiracy theorists, than a valid POI for those who are sticking closely to the facts presented by LE.

Regarding meth. When I looked up meth labs in Delphi, in 2014 and 2015 a handful were discovered, but they were all where you might expect them to be--in someone's home, or a rental, etc. There has never been a report of meth labs, or even meth usage anywhere near to the Delphi Historic Trails. In fact, that the trails had so little safety precautions, seems to indicate that there was little worry of crime there.

Correlation does not imply causation. Simply because there may be times when meth lab owners are some times at a park somewhere in the nation or Indiana specifically, doesn't mean that meth was in anyway part of what happened to these girls. And Delphi is relatively safe, low crime rate--which is probably why it seemed safe to let the girls explore the trails on their own.

Look it up. There is no history or current event to indicate that meth was a problem on the Delphi Historic Trails. Murder hasn't been either, but in that case, one bad guy really can change that. Whereas meth cooking tends to involve a good bit of prep. I was working on a short story where I had a meth lab in a nursing home. Everyone in my class thought it was an outrageous premise. But a month after I started the story, a news article popped up where attendants at a nursing home were arrested for using one of the back rooms of the nursing home as a lab.

But in researching for that story--I researched a great deal about meth labs, how they are constructed, what is involved. And an outdoor lab is almost unheard of---for all of the obvious reasons. Not saying it doesn't, or couldn't happen, but it is out of the norm.

 

[pepper 34]

Thank you! This is an excellent link with a summary of much information about the Iowa cousins, Lizzie and Lyric.

Much of interest in the article, especially what it states about an occupation in question. 'Training Automotive Damage Field Inspector.'

A person who could easily roam a wide geographic area while performing job duties. Very interesting indeed.

Thank you again for posting this!

Why didnt they run?
If they had a bad feeling about this guy why stay there let him get closer and closer.

We all have hindsight in our favor so, sure... if we got trapped (cut off from escape essentially) at the south end of that bridge; we'd move as fast and as best we could; the very minute we saw that guy coming up behind us on a bridge where simple walking is a treacherous ordeal. Once off the bridge, we'd run and trip and get snagged up on branches and fall down slopes as fast as we could with what poor escape options we had. We'd hope someone was home at one of the 2 farms down that way or run straight through the brush to nowhere; really. We've seen the aerial shots by now and WE know what our options would be... and we know how little of a chance we'd have but we would try anyway. To be really smart, we'd split up from our friend so the man would probably be forced to pick one of us to chase instead of both.... and we'd keep up screaming at the top of our lungs even though it would slow up down a bit... knowing full well someone has to cross that entire bridge before they can reach us with any kind of help. AW and LG did not know that man was going to kill them. They were uncomfortable and nervous but had no idea that the very minute they saw him was the time to run or it would be too late already. AW and LG had no way of knowing what we know now. And it's awful to say but that man really had them trapped. He KNOWS that area better than they do or his mind is especially devious in it's planning, imo. Up on that bridge with him behind them, closing in and the dismal options that they had? It was like; checkmate. I can't wait for him to be arrested and thrown in a cell.

 

[Shiressleuth]

For any new posters on this thread who are interested there are useful links posted at the beginning of each thread. There is a link to the Image discussion thread (where the 3 BG images have been analysed) and a link to Gray Huze You tube channel. There is also a case map and media thread.

 

[ImnoSherlock]

If you look back on this thread, those who have invested a great deal of time in some of these theories admitted there was no factual basis for them. In terms of RL, he has pretty much been ruled out as a suspect in this case--from what I've read. The fact that a search warrant was executed on his property would make sense, given that the girls were found on his property. Have you actually read the probable cause for the warrant, because it may have been related to something else. But the fact that his vehicle may have been searched (actually, I never read that his vehicle was searched, can you provide a link on this? I'd love to read that.)---this doesn't mean that LE believes a vehicle was involved in the crime. It may just have been a search in order to make certain RL had no involvement--and again, with the girls being discovered on his property, they might feel it was prudent to check every possible place where DNA, blood or a weapon, etc, might be discovered. I really don't know. I haven't seen much on RL--he seems to be more fodder for conspiracy theorists, than a valid POI for those who are sticking closely to the facts presented by LE.

Regarding meth. When I looked up meth labs in Delphi, in 2014 and 2015 a handful were discovered, but they were all where you might expect them to be--in someone's home, or a rental, etc. There has never been a report of meth labs, or even meth usage anywhere near to the Delphi Historic Trails. In fact, that the trails had so little safety precautions, seems to indicate that there was little worry of crime there.

Correlation does not imply causation. Simply because there may be times when meth lab owners are some times at a park somewhere in the nation or Indiana specifically, doesn't mean that meth was in anyway part of what happened to these girls. And Delphi is relatively safe, low crime rate--which is probably why it seemed safe to let the girls explore the trails on their own.

Look it up. There is no history or current event to indicate that meth was a problem on the Delphi Historic Trails. Murder hasn't been either, but in that case, one bad guy really can change that. Whereas meth cooking tends to involve a good bit of prep. I was working on a short story where I had a meth lab in a nursing home. Everyone in my class thought it was an outrageous premise. But a month after I started the story, a news article popped up where attendants at a nursing home were arrested for using one of the back rooms of the nursing home as a lab.

But in researching for that story--I researched a great deal about meth labs, how they are constructed, what is involved. And an outdoor lab is almost unheard of---for all of the obvious reasons. Not saying it doesn't, or couldn't happen, but it is out of the norm.

Here is footage of LE taking his truck during the search. About the .18 mark. Most of the news agencies also carried the story. http://youtube.com/watch?v=TT7NoIJr5zE

 

[Jethro4WS]

If you look back on this thread, those who have invested a great deal of time in some of these theories admitted there was no factual basis for them. In terms of RL, he has pretty much been ruled out as a suspect in this case--from what I've read. The fact that a search warrant was executed on his property would make sense, given that the girls were found on his property. Have you actually read the probable cause for the warrant, because it may have been related to something else. But the fact that his vehicle may have been searched (actually, I never read that his vehicle was searched, can you provide a link on this? I'd love to read that.)---this doesn't mean that LE believes a vehicle was involved in the crime. It may just have been a search in order to make certain RL had no involvement--and again, with the girls being discovered on his property, they might feel it was prudent to check every possible place where DNA, blood or a weapon, etc, might be discovered. I really don't know. I haven't seen much on RL--he seems to be more fodder for conspiracy theorists, than a valid POI for those who are sticking closely to the facts presented by LE.

Regarding meth. When I looked up meth labs in Delphi, in 2014 and 2015 a handful were discovered, but they were all where you might expect them to be--in someone's home, or a rental, etc. There has never been a report of meth labs, or even meth usage anywhere near to the Delphi Historic Trails. In fact, that the trails had so little safety precautions, seems to indicate that there was little worry of crime there.

Correlation does not imply causation. Simply because there may be times when meth lab owners are some times at a park somewhere in the nation or Indiana specifically, doesn't mean that meth was in anyway part of what happened to these girls. And Delphi is relatively safe, low crime rate--which is probably why it seemed safe to let the girls explore the trails on their own.

Look it up. There is no history or current event to indicate that meth was a problem on the Delphi Historic Trails. Murder hasn't been either, but in that case, one bad guy really can change that. Whereas meth cooking tends to involve a good bit of prep. I was working on a short story where I had a meth lab in a nursing home. Everyone in my class thought it was an outrageous premise. But a month after I started the story, a news article popped up where attendants at a nursing home were arrested for using one of the back rooms of the nursing home as a lab.

But in researching for that story--I researched a great deal about meth labs, how they are constructed, what is involved. And an outdoor lab is almost unheard of---for all of the obvious reasons. Not saying it doesn't, or couldn't happen, but it is out of the norm.

There are photos from the media of RL's truck on a flatbed tow truck with the doors taped with orange/red tape. You would have to go back into the threads from the day of the search and they surely were reposted in the days after. There was much discussion about this.

 

[Falling Down]

Did the snowbirds have a boat moored near the Creek? Did the perp "borrow" it? The perp is confiident wandering around on private property so he would think nothing of using short cuts for his own benefit. AJMO.

The boat theory doesn't wash with me.

The property is upstream from the CS. A guy on a boat would have stuck out as it went through town.

 

[Falling Down]

Falling Down, perhaps it seems like an awful lot of trouble because you are not the killer of two girls. I was not certain if you have seen the wire fence at the corner of the cemetery.

This is a SS taken by one of our WS members although my apologies are extended for not recalling who posted this and added red drawings.

The "wire fence" comment on my end was more of a reference point.

Most likely, that path in the photo is how the killer got back into the cemetery., after the murders.

-FD

 

[DeDee]

Gray Hughes says his Flow video 3 was so accurate that LE contacted him and was impressed at how he was able to come up with the flow of the crime with just publicly available info. http://youtube.com/watch?v=cTvPXfFltSo If this new one has been linked....scroll and roll

Flow video 3 was so accurate that LE contacted him and was impressed at how he was able to come up with the flow of the crime with just publicly available info

I was taken aback when GH announced this in the debunking video. Does this mean that LE did not consider making a flowchart of the crime scene to determine when and where the photos were taken? This possibility has me fairly concerned. If LE has not considered or is not capable of doing the same type work then, they may never solve this case.

Many of us are fatigued from the intense research performed to help them find BG.
May today be the day!

 

[ImnoSherlock]

I was taken aback when GH announced this in the debunking video. Does this mean that LE did not consider making a flowchart of the crime scene to determine when and where the photos were taken? This possibility has me fairly concerned. If LE has not considered or is not capable of doing the same type work then, they may never solve this case.

Many of us are fatigued from the intense research performed to help them find BG.
May today be the day!

I'm sure a flow chart would be one of the first thing's that LE comes up with,because they have the inside information.I believe they were impressed with his as he stated because he managed to do it with public information.LE will most likely have an even more accurate chart than GH because of the inside details that they do have.

 

[Falling Down]

Interesting, I have lived in New England my entire life, both Maine and NH. I'm just going to make an observation based off what you saw. Anyone dressed like that here would not be what we consider local attire. They wouldn't fit in, an outsider, transient. Going along the point you noticed all these guys were truck drivers to some degree, it makes one ponder.

Did you ever notice if these trucks had out of state plates? Trucking is a big thing here constantly have out of state trucks here as well as people leaving from Maine/NH etc to other places. I notice most of the guys in my area have a typical redneck New England style. Its kind of a thing here, if you dont own a carhart or north face jacket you aren't a local lol.

One big "truth" about Indiana, as far as its economy is concerned, is logistics is huge, here. Before moving here two years ago, I'd never pictured this state as such a major logistics hub, as in pretty much the entire state. Railroads, trucking co's, warehouses, truck stops (large and small), etc. I drive U.S. 24 and U.S. 30, they're both busier with trucks than interstates I've traveled in other states.

I see flat bed trailers from IA, IL, MI, KY, OH, etc., hauling all kinds of semi-finished and finished goods. Enclosed trailers. Large box trucks from as far away as Iowa. So there's a tremendous amount of commerce related to logistics in this state, even if it's passing through.

If I were to profile BG, I'd say he's well-traveled, maybe very much so. Feels comfortable in pretty much any place he travels to.

JMO

 

[Falling Down]

I was taken aback when GH announced this in the debunking video. Does this mean that LE did not consider making a flowchart of the crime scene to determine when and where the photos were taken? This possibility has me fairly concerned. If LE has not considered or is not capable of doing the same type work then, they may never solve this case.

Many of us are fatigued from the intense research performed to help them find BG.
May today be the day!

Maybe it's more of an indication that some folks following the case have contributed more than we may appreciate, but LE is paying attention and appreciates the efforts to try to piece together the crimes.

Good point, DeDee.

 

[ezrah]

There are photos from the media of RL's truck on a flatbed tow truck with the doors taped with orange/red tape. You would have to go back into the threads from the day of the search and they surely were reposted in the days after. There was much discussion about this.

Here's a pic of the truck on the flat bed. Best I could do in a hurry.

 

[Bird of Paradise]

Plz forgive me

No problem at all. The rules are on the first page of every thread.

:welcome6:

 

[ImnoSherlock]

Plz forgive me

I can't help but snicker at this but you might want to delete the rest of it to before you get bombarded with "Forgive you for what?!?!" :gasp: