IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #65

[pepper 34]

Thank you! This is an excellent link with a summary of much information about the Iowa cousins, Lizzie and Lyric.

Much of interest in the article, especially what it states about an occupation in question. 'Training Automotive Damage Field Inspector.'

A person who could easily roam a wide geographic area while performing job duties. Very interesting indeed.

Thank you again for posting this!

We can disagree and still be friends. I think the Sgt. is explaining the difficulty of doing such a thing as crossing the creek almost to the point of the impossibility of it. There was no island that day as it was covered with water. I do not think the girls could have made it a quarter of a mile in near freezing cold water. Our bodies are not equipped to handle those low temps for that length of time. Besides their wet clothes and shoes would be slowing them down tremendously. Furthermore, they would be fighting/ swimming/walking against the current. It seems logical to me that they did not enter the creek. Also, how do you know he did not have a car?

In spite of a disgusting map (sorry) ... but the map will show that the girls did not have to walk 1/4 mile through the very cold creek water. Follow the red line across the bridge to the SE end of bridge, down the hill, through the brushy trees and across a sandy part of the creek. You can even see how shallow the creek is here as the sand can be clearly seen through the water. This is, to me, is the shortest and easiest way to get from the bridge to the place where the girls were found. "Bodies found" is approximate. I believe the girls were actually found to the right of where I marked off but the route is pretty close imo.

 

[Puggle]

In spite of a disgusting map (sorry) ... but the map will show that the girls did not have to walk 1/4 mile through the very cold creek water. Follow the red line across the bridge to the SE end of bridge, down the hill, through the brushy trees and across a sandy part of the creek. You can even see how shallow the creek is here as the sand can be clearly seen through the water. This is, to me, is the shortest and easiest way to get from the bridge to the place where the girls were found.

The map is brilliant .... at least you can post a pic the correct way up mine always are sideways. .

Pepper would you happen to know what post number the link to Lizzie and Lyric is at? .... the one mentioned in your posts quote box, posted response from Jazztune??

If not ... thats cool ... Ill try n find it..

Puggle

 

[Deleted member 172065]

We all have hindsight in our favor so, sure... if we got trapped (cut off from escape essentially) at the south end of that bridge; we'd move as fast and as best we could; the very minute we saw that guy coming up behind us on a bridge where simple walking is a treacherous ordeal. Once off the bridge, we'd run and trip and get snagged up on branches and fall down slopes as fast as we could with what poor escape options we had. We'd hope someone was home at one of the 2 farms down that way or run straight through the brush to nowhere; really. We've seen the aerial shots by now and WE know what our options would be... and we know how little of a chance we'd have but we would try anyway. To be really smart, we'd split up from our friend so the man would probably be forced to pick one of us to chase instead of both.... and we'd keep up screaming at the top of our lungs even though it would slow up down a bit... knowing full well someone has to cross that entire bridge before they can reach us with any kind of help. AW and LG did not know that man was going to kill them. They were uncomfortable and nervous but had no idea that the very minute they saw him was the time to run or it would be too late already. AW and LG had no way of knowing what we know now. And it's awful to say but that man really had them trapped. He KNOWS that area better than they do or his mind is especially devious in it's planning, imo. Up on that bridge with him behind them, closing in and the dismal options that they had? It was like; checkmate. I can't wait for him to be arrested and thrown in a cell.

Any theories why they would cross the creek instead of running towards where they were dropped off?


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[Deleted member 172065]

I'm sure a flow chart would be one of the first thing's that LE comes up with,because they have the inside information.I believe they were impressed with his as he stated because he managed to do it with public information.LE will most likely have an even more accurate chart than GH because of the inside details that they do have.

And they probably also contacted him because he was a 'tip.'


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[rosesfromangels]

My opinion only, is that this perp was so successful because he had done a similar crime. He had a weapon, was bigger, and had control of the girls instantly.
I still think this is linked to the Iowa girls. I think the perp is a lot like Israel Keyes or Joseph Duncan, III.
He planned meticulously and waited for the right opportunity. These guys are like predators in the wild. They will wait for the right opportunity because it will eventually come along. I'm praying he makes another mistake and gets caught.

He already did. We have video and audio of this &%$#$%, thanks to our little heroine Libby. Her heroic act will take this guy down. The lab work should be wrapping up soon, and then an arrest. Fear not, it's coming. I'm positive.

 

[pepper 34]

Thank you! This is an excellent link with a summary of much information about the Iowa cousins, Lizzie and Lyric.

Much of interest in the article, especially what it states about an occupation in question. 'Training Automotive Damage Field Inspector.'

A person who could easily roam a wide geographic area while performing job duties. Very interesting indeed.

Thank you again for posting this!

Any theories why they would cross the creek instead of running towards where they were dropped off?


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Because, imo, BG was walking behind them and forcing them to go the way he wanted them to go which was across the creek. The above comment I made was in response to someone asking, "Why didn't they run?" My apologies if my answer to that comment was not clear. The girls could not get back to the drop off spot the way they came. That would require them crossing back over the bridge and somehow getting around BG. They would never have tried to get around him. They could only leave the bridge by the SE end (where the red line on the map takes a sharp right turn.) I will add here that the map I made is also jmo... anything I write is all opinion only! I can't edit the map to add that now... and I don't know how to put a permanent "imo" at the bottom of each entry I make... but all entries I make are all JMO.

 

[pepper 34]

The map is brilliant .... at least you can post a pic the correct way up mine always are sideways. .

Pepper would you happen to know what post number the link to Lizzie and Lyric is at? .... the one mentioned in your posts quote box, posted response from Jazztune??

If not ... thats cool ... Ill try n find it..

Puggle

Puggle, here's the link: https://iowacoldcases.org/case-summaries/lyric-cook-and-elizabeth-collins/

 

[Deleted member 172065]

And what if a gun was being pointed at you? Could you/Would you still run?

A gun was pointed at me once. I froze. Gave her my purse. Screamed ltr. I think I screamed after she left in her vehicle. That's how I remember it, because as she walked away I remember that I followed a few steps and said mildly, 'give me my purse back.' But she was in a van and I was standing there wondering if she was going to run me over. Long story to say I FROZE. God spared me.


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[TeaTime]

So the police officer talking about them crossing the creek is just being ignored in favor of inventive scenarios involving a car ride from under the south end of the bridge down a road, onto a highway across the creek, then down some more roads to get to the cemetery to march them in broad daylight and in view of at least one house, down to the creek on the north side, a short distance from where they started?

Nah.

Once in the car, he could have taken them anywhere but this fantasy has him driving them almost back to the spot where he grabbed them in order to kill them.

They crossed the creek.

JMHO

 

[No it's not]

So the police officer talking about them crossing the creek is just being ignored in favor of inventive scenarios involving a car ride from under the south end of the bridge down a road, onto a highway across the creek, then down some more roads to get to the cemetery to march them in broad daylight and in view of at least one house, down to the creek on the north side, a short distance from where they started?

Nah.

Once in the car, he could have taken them anywhere but this fantasy has him driving them almost back to the spot where he grabbed them in order to kill them.

They crossed the creek.

JMHO

They crossed the creek, I agree. Why else would they have searched the creek in the general CS area? I did not see them searching further North.

-Nin

 

[Deleted member 172065]

So the police officer talking about them crossing the creek is just being ignored in favor of inventive scenarios involving a car ride from under the south end of the bridge down a road, onto a highway across the creek, then down some more roads to get to the cemetery to march them in broad daylight and in view of at least one house, down to the creek on the north side, a short distance from where they started?

Nah.

Once in the car, he could have taken them anywhere but this fantasy has him driving them almost back to the spot where he grabbed them in order to kill them.

They crossed the creek.

JMHO

As I understand the car theory, it is a SPECULATION based on what perps often do--they often take their victims somewhere, and then ltr dump them. And that he MIGHT HAVE used the creek to get rid of his DNA.
I think the police officer was convincing, however. You hear about police officers making up stuff to trap the criminal, and I have even wondered if an officer would go so far as to say things just to protect the case/evidence from leaking out. A lot, after all, is shrouded in secrecy. And they obviously don't want us to know all the facts.
But I'm swaying back to my original theory--they crossed the creek (at least until I change my mind next week).
Sorry to use the word 'dump'. Sounds awful!


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[ImnoSherlock]

And they probably also contacted him because he was a 'tip.'


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Someone did tip him in.He stated that in his video.

 

[Puggle]

Puggle, here's the link: https://iowacoldcases.org/case-summaries/lyric-cook-and-elizabeth-collins/

Thank you so much
Puggle xx

 

[RIP Meagan + Johnny]

Because, imo, BG was walking behind them and forcing them to go the way he wanted them to go which was across the creek. The above comment I made was in response to someone asking, "Why didn't they run?" My apologies if my answer to that comment was not clear. The girls could not get back to the drop off spot the way they came. That would require them crossing back over the bridge and somehow getting around BG. They would never have tried to get around him. They could only leave the bridge by the SE end (where the red line on the map takes a sharp right turn.) I will add here that the map I made is also jmo... anything I write is all opinion only! I can't edit the map to add that now... and I don't know how to put a permanent "imo" at the bottom of each entry I make... but all entries I make are all JMO.

RBBM
Hi, Pepper!
Go to "my profile". Then go to "about me". There's a section for "signature". Whatever you type there will show up on every post, as long as you have the "show signature" box checked when you post.
HTH!
~RIP Meagan.....

 

[cluciano63]

I think BG is just lucky so far. Probably he has never had his DNA make it into the system before. And probably did not frequent Delphi enough for people to notice him. If he somehow keeps his DNA out of the system in the future and stays clear of IN, he could well get awat with it. Jmo

 

[Stormy415]

Knowing the ages of the girls i think they would have made a run for it. Most kids today know never go to the 2nd. place. Maybe they ran towards the creek and got caught crossing. The big question....... is a gun involved and would he have used it........did they find a gun in the creek. Leaning to crossing creek and the crime happening right there. Hope I'm not off base and this hasn't been discussed before

I think he had a gun just to move them (down the hill). However, I do not believe he used it to kill them, <modsnip>

I pray every night that BG is caught soon. He is probably reading our posts and sitting there laughing thinking he will never get caught. &#55357;&#56447; But you will be!!!!

 

[minazoe]

okay,

so I don't think this miserable sad sack of bug brains shot the girls, because gunshots are loud and sex killers like to strangle or bludgeon or both... so theres that, shooting is too quick and ruins the joy they feel from the suffering and pain of their victim,

so he probably corralled them with it, but I doubt he used it because they would be dragging the water for the murder weapon, so i feel like the girls were strangled and the whatever they were strangled with was left with the girls.

there is no way in my mind that drove around with them...but is it true the phone was pinging around? this would be extremely risky and maybe it is possible that he had one of the phones in his possession.

THERE IS NO METH LAB in this case ( I will eat my hat if there is).

this garbage excuse for a human being is a practiced molester/ murderer... I think he raped and killed them in those woods and then high tailed it.

I believe all that stuffing in his jacket was from his murder tools for his rituals, ( duct tape, zip ties, panty hose ,gloves, black jack, recorder/phone/
possible drugs etc. )

I hate saying these things, but this guy has full control of his facilities, he is not some stoner head case.

you just don't do this in broad daylight to two victims. You don't . he is a studied professional. he will be back.

right now he has crept back to his hole, but he will be back.

we need John Walsh, we need our crime tv back on the air...advocates who will talk everyday about this case until someone comes forward.

these girls haunt me...and I feel so sorry for the police there in Indiana, dealing with something like this.

MOO just thoughts.

 

[DeDee]

The narrowest part of the creek there is 60 feet wide. Upstream of the crime scene it is well over 100 feet. All of the sandbars seen in later videos were all underwater on the 14th. The water was even higher on the 13th (and higher still on the 12th where it peaked). You can see this in the helicopter video. The channels alongside the sandbars and in between sandbars were deeper. This too you can see in the helicopter video. There is no way to cross that creek anywhere near that crime scene without being in water at one point or another where it was anywhere from 2 to 3 feet deep for some distance.

I dare anyone to walk through 38 degree (at best) water. It is bone numbing cold. Water is 20 times more efficient than air in transferring heat. It is significantly quicker in pulling heat from your body than if you were standing in 38 degree air. And it doesn't get any better once you get out of the water either. You don't warm up. Cold wet jeans don't insulate your body heat. Rather, the water wants to equalize its temperature with your body. It does so by drawing the heat from your body through your skin. That process will not stop until the temperatures have equalized. This is hypothermia 101. You will lose heat faster than your body can produce heat. You will shake. Your brain will cut the blood flow to extremities to conserve heat for your vital organs.

To see the way people talk about this it is as if walking across a 38 degree creek in February is no different than crossing a 68 degree creek in July. You will know the difference, absolutely, once you hit the water and afterwards.

Theorizing is one thing. Ignoring physics and known human body reactions to cold is another.

Thank you, Jethro, for the Hypothermia 101 tutorial by explaining so well what occurs to our body's core temperature when exposed to cold water.

I cannot make my mind convinced that BG would allow himself to wear wet shoes and britches. And, as you mention, it could be a way to lose a girl due to slippage, etc.; however, this will be my last word on the crossing the creek subject.

The Water Rescue Team is wearing insulated skins to retain their body's heat. I wear a similar long sleeved one when diving in Hawaii due to the frigid temperatures below 40'.


NIN, you are right, in that, to my knowledge, only the CS area to the SE High Bridge was searched. The first SW served was on property that had an outside shed searched. I assumed LE felt the girls were taken away from the bridge and LE was searching for the location. We also saw them searching a barn after the crime. I feel LE was still looking for a CS. If so, I pray they have found it.

 

[Jethro4WS]

So the police officer talking about them crossing the creek is just being ignored in favor of inventive scenarios involving a car ride from under the south end of the bridge down a road, onto a highway across the creek, then down some more roads to get to the cemetery to march them in broad daylight and in view of at least one house, down to the creek on the north side, a short distance from where they started?

Nah.

Once in the car, he could have taken them anywhere but this fantasy has him driving them almost back to the spot where he grabbed them in order to kill them.

They crossed the creek.

JMHO

My theory is the girls were taken to a location elsewhere. They were killed some hours later at this same location. Their bodies were then taken to where they were found sometime after midnight. LE has never volunteered whether the girls were killed where they were found. The media has never asked LE whether the girls were killed where they were found or killed elsewhere and their bodies put there. It is usually one of the very first questions asked by the media anytime a body is found in the woods or in a field and it has never been asked to this day. Not once in the interview of 27 minutes did that even come up. We also don't have a time of death. This is another thing that has never been volunteered by LE nor asked about by the media.

This has been my theory since the first few days after the murders and this is where I still am at. LE is free at any time to make either of those two facts known. Until then this is just as viable a theory as others. People are free to pursue their own theories.

 

[Deleted member 172065]

The narrowest part of the creek there is 60 feet wide. Upstream of the crime scene it is well over 100 feet. All of the sandbars seen in later videos were all underwater on the 14th. The water was even higher on the 13th (and higher still on the 12th where it peaked). You can see this in the helicopter video. The channels alongside the sandbars and in between sandbars were deeper. This too you can see in the helicopter video. There is no way to cross that creek anywhere near that crime scene without being in water at one point or another where it was anywhere from 2 to 3 feet deep for some distance.

I dare anyone to walk through 38 degree (at best) water. It is bone numbing cold. Water is 20 times more efficient than air in transferring heat. It is significantly quicker in pulling heat from your body than if you were standing in 38 degree air. And it doesn't get any better once you get out of the water either. You don't warm up. Cold wet jeans don't insulate your body heat. Rather, the water wants to equalize its temperature with your body. It does so by drawing the heat from your body through your skin. That process will not stop until the temperatures have equalized. This is hypothermia 101. You will lose heat faster than your body can produce heat. You will shake. Your brain will cut the blood flow to extremities to conserve heat for your vital organs.

To see the way people talk about this it is as if walking across a 38 degree creek in February is no different than crossing a 68 degree creek in July. You will know the difference, absolutely, once you hit the water and afterwards.

Theorizing is one thing. Ignoring physics and known human body reactions to cold is another.

"You will shake." Agree.
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