IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #66

[Yellow Rose]

Fwiw:

GALLERY: 63 ARRESTED IN JOHNSON CO. METH CASES

A joint investigation by Johnson County law enforcement resulted in arrest warrants for 63 people Wednesday on drug charges. Click through the gallery to see mugshots for everyone charged in the case.

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/gallery-63-arrested-in-johnson-co-meth-cases#

(Who knew there were so many "bulbous noses" out there...)

Quite a few look like they are on their last METH leg.

 

[tlcya]

Just an FYI - the DEBUNK videos are not appropriate to link or discuss. Here's why - those particular videos discuss rumors and misinformation from social media that WS members and staff alike have worked very hard to keep out of this conversation. To allow the videos debunking such rumors and misinformation only serves to introduce those items to a discussion they have never been allowed in.

The videos may be very helpful to some, but our members here have done a good job of sticking to the facts, so I see no need to muddy the waters with introducing these.

Previous videos regarding this case by the youtube account of Gray Hughes are still allowed and are extremely useful in this FACT based discussion.

 

[Elementarywatsonsir]

Didn't one of them live in a house that connected to the bridge/trail area property? Would make sense that they made a run through the water trying to get to their home ground.


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[Shiressleuth]

This is why I think it's possible they might have made a run for it, moo. I posted waaaaay upstream, like thread 1, about how one time my violent loser ex was chasing me after a beating and so I ran into the water to get away from him. It just seems like something I would do, moo.

Thinking more about this, with them knowing the area, maybe they were running towards something in peculiar, instinctually. If they had made it past the creek and continued forward, what is there? Just thinking out loud...I don't believe this has any relevance to finding BG either way.

These posts have made me think maybe it was a thwarted SA because the girls ran and fought at some point escaping across the creek to his annoyance where he followed, killed them and left. We have nearly all said what little time for it to have gone down between 2.30 and 3.11 when DG got no response from the phone. Perhaps that's why. It didn't go as he had planned maybe. Botched for whatever reason. JMO.
ETA Past the Creek was safety - RL's property and the road.

 

[Justice101]

This case does seem most likely to be a SA. The police and family know, of course. The thing that throws me off is all of them going through the near freezing water first. That couldn't have been part of the perp's plan!

Except that it looks like the perpetrator and girls could have been seen by someone coming across the bridge late... no leaves on the trees and would also easily have heard any commotion from below.

I think it is still possible BG forced them across the creek.. holding one of them with a gun on them and then once on the other side came up on the bank 100 feet and probably gagged them and tied them up to those trees or did other unspeakable things to at least one of them.

But then, his pants legs would be wet and that would be a red flag to anyone who later saw him.

I'm still befuddled... with them making a run for it versus him forcing them across.

 

[Shiressleuth]

Fwiw:

GALLERY: 63 ARRESTED IN JOHNSON CO. METH CASES

A joint investigation by Johnson County law enforcement resulted in arrest warrants for 63 people Wednesday on drug charges. Click through the gallery to see mugshots for everyone charged in the case.

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/gallery-63-arrested-in-johnson-co-meth-cases#

(Who knew there were so many "bulbous noses" out there...)

Are these in addition to the ones a few days ago? They do look like they are different to me. I counted approx 30 white male perps here.

 

[Shiressleuth]

Didn't one of them live in a house that connected to the bridge/trail area property? Would make sense that they made a run through the water trying to get to their home ground.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes but it was in the other direction down the road away from the bridge and the Creek.

 

[Deleted member 172065]

Not to be argumentative,but,why does it seem to you that SA took place?

Not too sure about much. Just think that in these kinds of cases that there's usually a sexual component, but maybe not. Would he kill just because of...(?)

 

[Steleheart]

Yes but it was in the other direction down the road away from the bridge and the Creek.

About a mile I believe. Without sleuthing family for discussion here it is available out there....

JMO

 

[Shiressleuth]

I know you're asking her, but I'll answer because I also do think very likely SA took place. This is only based on the thousands of other cases/ threads/ other child murders I've seen here. The motive is usually SA. Moo. Other than parents who kill their kids, babysitters, etc, I can't recall other cases where the motive is otherwise.

Eta: Another thing, imo I do think that if there was no evidence of SA, LE would have mentioned this, despite their prerogative to "keep things close to the vest in order to preserve the integrity of the investigation."

Perhaps that's the twist-no SA and only the killer would know that. And it could partly explain the difficulty isolating dna. JMO.

 

[Deleted member 172065]

This is why I think it's possible they might have made a run for it, moo. I posted waaaaay upstream, like thread 1, about how one time my violent loser ex was chasing me after a beating and so I ran into the water to get away from him. It just seems like something I would do, moo.

Thinking more about this, with them knowing the area, maybe they were running towards something in peculiar, instinctually. If they had made it past the creek and continued forward, what is there? Just thinking out loud...I don't believe this has any relevance to finding BG either way.

Just probably because it was the most opportune direction at the time. imo

 

[Steleheart]

Not too sure about much. Just think that in these kinds of cases that there's usually a sexual component, but maybe not. Would he kill just because of...(?)

IMO - while that may be true in many cases the plausibility of a "thrill kill" is high on my radar. The short span of time, the shock value to the community, the fact that 2 victims were murdered, young and easily controlled and the lack of a full abduction to a different area says "thrill kill" to me. IOW Do it, pose it and leave it making a statement of power and control. JMO

See the link to Thrill Kill in this article;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_murder


JMHO YMMV

 

[Deleted member 172065]

TRUCK DRIVER theory seems very possible. There was a videographer in the last thread who went past the hog factory. There were an abundance of semis. I believe the video was showing the back way to the bridge. Interesting video.

 

[margarita25]

These posts have made me think maybe it was a thwarted SA because the girls ran and fought at some point escaping across the creek to his annoyance where he followed, killed them and left. We have nearly all said what little time for it to have gone down between 2.30 and 3.11 when DG got no response from the phone. Perhaps that's why. It didn't go as he had planned maybe. Botched for whatever reason. JMO.
ETA Past the Creek was safety - RL's property and the road.

While reading this, I had a flashback of the crime scene photo of where Lizzie and Lyric were found, some distance apart, almost like maybe one made a run for it, but then I am reminded of MJK how he separated the girls at the pig farm during SA (allowing the opportunity for one to flee for help; Kathlynn didn't make it unfortunately).

 

[Deleted member 172065]

TRUCK DRIVER theory seems very possible. There was a videographer in the last thread who went past the hog factory. There were an abundance of semis. I believe the video was showing the back way to the bridge. Interesting video.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

SO BASICALLY, the girls were fleeing and went across the creek, OR
that was part of the perp's plan to go through the near freezing water. We know the perp was cold and wearing a coat so THAT WOULD BE ODD...maybe he didn't know the terrain as well as we think he did.

I wonder if he knew before making them enter the water along with him that sometimes entering water can throw the scent dogs off when they are tracking for human scents?

Just a thought.

 

[Steleheart]

Just an FYI - the DEBUNK videos are not appropriate to link or discuss. Here's why - those particular videos discuss rumors and misinformation from social media that WS members and staff alike have worked very hard to keep out of this conversation. To allow the videos debunking such rumors and misinformation only serves to introduce those items to a discussion they have never been allowed in.

The videos may be very helpful to some, but our members here have done a good job of sticking to the facts, so I see no need to muddy the waters with introducing these.

Previous videos regarding this case by the youtube account of Gray Hughes are still allowed and are extremely useful in this FACT based discussion.

Agreed tlcya.

I think they are useful to take into account while sleuthing outside of discussion here. We do much of that as sleuths, LOL.
MUM's the word sometimes eh?

 

[ImnoSherlock]

These posts have made me think maybe it was a thwarted SA because the girls ran and fought at some point escaping across the creek to his annoyance where he followed, killed them and left. We have nearly all said what little time for it to have gone down between 2.30 and 3.11 when DG got no response from the phone. Perhaps that's why. It didn't go as he had planned maybe. Botched for whatever reason. JMO.
ETA Past the Creek was safety - RL's property and the road.

Sometime back after Tobe said that RL was not a suspect,but still involved,I had posted a theory on his involvement that said something along those lines.I speculated that perhaps the girls had ran for safety to the first place they knew,RL's place.Not knowing what was recorded on Libby's phone,it would seem possible that if they were fleeing from the murderer,perhaps they were yelling for RL and that may have been what prompted LE to get a search warrant,because they heard his name on the recording.But then again,maybe they got a search warrant just because they were found on his property.

 

[margarita25]

rsbm

"Soon there will be places and methods on the internet that we will not be able to penetrate and identify criminals on."
http://www.wibc.com/news/local-news/dark-web-and-your-kids-fbi-agent-says-its-your-responsibility

Wooooowwwww....this is quite a statement. Scary.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

These posts have made me think maybe it was a thwarted SA because the girls ran and fought at some point escaping across the creek to his annoyance where he followed, killed them and left. We have nearly all said what little time for it to have gone down between 2.30 and 3.11 when DG got no response from the phone. Perhaps that's why. It didn't go as he had planned maybe. Botched for whatever reason. JMO.
ETA Past the Creek was safety - RL's property and the road.

From the studies I have read on child/teen abduction cases that also involved rape, and then murder of the victims..... the victims are usually dead within a very short time after being taken. I will try to find the link to the largest study backed by the DOJ that involves 775 solved cases where the abducted/murdered victims and murderers were known.

I even think he could have been a pedophile predator and he was more interested in the youngest victim instead of the older one. JMO Or he may have thought they were both younger than they were.

They tend to do whatever they plan to do very quickly, and then leave the area of the crime scene.

IMO