IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #66

[minazoe]

This is OT but it reminded me of this case and others involving more than one victim.

I just watched an episode on OWN where two teen girls (18-19 iirc) were out on an overlook deck in a park in Tx., and out of no where a man came up to them with a gun, and forced them in to the wooded area below. He made one of the victims put duct tape on the other one, and then apply it to herself plus I think he made one bind the other one up. Then he proceeded to rape one of the victims, and shot both of them in the head leaving them both for dead right at the same location. One of the teens died and the other one was gravely injured leaving her with life long disabilities which impaired the way her left arm and leg moves. She is blessed to be alive.

The case went unsolved for over two years. The one surviving victim said the main thing each one of them wanted to do is everything they could in order to protect the other one... so they did as the man said hoping he would let them both go. I believe this is the same mindset these two beautiful girls, (A&L) had in their hearts the day they also crossed path with their own monster. The same love, and protective bond L&E had the day they were also cruelly murdered.

Why I mentioned this particular case is it gives us a glimpse into the mindset of victims when there is more than one victim involved who has been ambushed or kidnapped by a murderous maniac. Often in cases like this there are no surviving victims left behind to tell their story.

The man who did this did not have any prior criminal record whatsoever before he abducted, raped one, and shot both young teen girls thinking he had killed them both. He did not look like a monster when he was finally caught and came from a good family. By the time he was finally caught he had married, and had a good job. In fact if one didn't know what he had done he looked more like a nerd instead of a stone cold killer and rapist.

It just shows this can happen anywhere, and anytime by anyone. No one knows what is really in the mind of anyone even though they may 'appear' to fit in with social norms while masking their dark secrets and deviant desires to rape or murder or both.

JMO

I remember this case, the girls were lesbians and I think the implication was he raped and shot them because seeing them together on this overlook enraged him. The victim who survived is a beautiful girl, and the story just broke my heart...so sickening,

 

[cluciano63]

Jmo, everything is a theory right now, since they are zero known facts about motive, cause of death, etc...

Also, I think maybe initially LE thought there could be an online connection, if maybe one of the girls had posted where they would be, or posted from the park area. But it did not pan out, Imo, as surely they would have traced any contact made with the girls around that time period. I guess it is possible the perp saw a post saying when they would be there, or that they were being dropped off, but that is just guesswork since we don't know. Jmo

 

[margarita25]

I have always leaned towards a random predator, lurking, and that the girls were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Now my mind is playing tricks on me, and I wonder if this was some sort of revenge killing for any dealings someone close to the girls might have had in the past, moo.

How often have we seen such a scenario in other cases here? I can't recall an example off the top of my head.

 

[her]

I just wanted to add my two pennies.

Everyones opinion has value as far as I'm concerned, even if I'm not leaning in a direction that a poster is seeing. I can maybe learn something I never considered and that has happened. Who am I to 100% rule something out? I just wish there was more facts.

It's tough and hopefully one day we can have that.

 

[sleuther0192837465]

You are right. The perps have become bolder. Why is that? With so much more cctv and mobile phones everywhere criminals should be more in fear of being caught these days. Is it because of less police patrols/manpower perhaps? IDK.

Because most kids are indoors after dark IMO


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I'm really starting to think BG is someone well known in the community or a nearby community. Someone no one would expect, so therefore would never make it on LE's radar for an interview/swab. Unsuspecting enough that no one would even consider turning him in for $250k. I think if it were anyone else, SOMEONE would have ID'd them by now. Maybe not family, maybe not a best friend, but anyone else.




SABBM- I'm also not sure how much faith I have in that sketch and I'm scared that it's just far enough off from his actual face that someone might blow off calling in the tip.




Agreed. It's also quite possible BG had been out since earlier in the morning or planning to stay late into the evening. I believe it was down in the mid-20's that night and following morning. Mid-40's feels warm after a cold winter, but if you're even remotely stationary for periods of time, the chill can set in quickly. And that mid-40s peak temp likely didn't hang around more than a few hours. The tree cover and nearby water may have made it feel even cooler.




While I agree the terrain isn't exactly a paved sidewalk in the flatlands, it's not exactly treacherous. IMO, anyone who's spent any time in the woods, around creeks, or hiking would easily be able to travel that property with relative ease.

But we also know that BG was insistent they go "down the hill", so it's highly likely BG did make them go there.

But, it's also MOO and seems to contradict everyone's opinion, luck played a role in BG getting away so far and that he likely didn't have to be overly familiar with the trails to get them to where they were. He just needed to get to the trail, whether he saw the sign, had been there before, knew it was there, etc. All BG would have had to do is lead them away from the people he knew were there at any point in the day (likely the bridge) and then stop where he felt confident they wouldn't be seen, heard, and/or noticed.

If BG came in on 300N from the east, he would have known approximately where the homes were located and how far back in the woods he could go. Traveling upstream, away from town, away from trail walkers and bridge viewers, and away from the homes on the southeast end of the bridge makes more sense to me. Walking downstream would keep them closer to the trail, and it appears as though the land west of the bridge is a bit flatter for a larger portion along the creek, I also think it would have been easy to see the homes from the very end of the bridge.

Great post!

I am certainly in agreement with most of your post but this part is the subject I am replying to.... I don't think this killer is in the community of Delphi though or known to anyone there.


But, it's also MOO and seems to contradict everyone's opinion, luck played a role in BG getting away so far and that he likely didn't have to be overly familiar with the trails to get them to where they were. He just needed to get to the trail, whether he saw the sign, had been there before, knew it was there, etc. All BG would have had to do is lead them away from the people he knew were there at any point in the day (likely the bridge) and then stop where he felt confident they wouldn't be seen, heard, and/or noticed.

We have certainly seen luck be in the favor of other murderers before. Many cases involved abductions resulting in the victim being murdered happened right on the streets in broad daylight but no one saw or heard a thing when the victim/s was being abducted. At the time luck was on their side too instead of the victim/s. And many of these cases there was no eye witnesses to the actual abduction, and have remained unsolved for many years. Regretfully, yes, luck was on BGs side that day just like it has been for other murderers.

An aside comment:
The problem LE is having is they know he is the one who did these murders but BG is not in any data system. Imo, they have his DNA but they do not have his DNA profile in order to make a match, and subsequent arrest. If they had a match identifying him then they may easily find out his present location.

He may just get away with these murders and will never be caught or caught years from now because his luck finally ran out. If he goes on to murder more then often serial murderers get cocky (overconfident) and sloppy the more times they kill, and will finally make a grave mistake. I hope they catch him before he strikes again. Imo, BG getting away with it for so long has made him feel more powerful and embolden. He has to be thinking he is untouchable.

 

[deedee21]

The discussion a few posts back was that no one could find the link. Ok. Continue on with a theory you can provide no proof of. If no one can provide a simple link, then obviously there is no foundation to the theory.

I give up. I would just say to new folks, no one on any thread that I have read has provided any proof of there being an actual connection between these murders and a meth lab. And I truly have looked and can't find anything to support this. I looked hard.

And no link to loan sharking, dog fighting, and fill in the blank.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I have always leaned towards a random predator, lurking, and that the girls were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Now my mind is playing tricks on me, and I wonder if this was some sort of revenge killing for any dealings someone close to the girls might have had in the past, moo.

How often have we seen such a scenario in other cases here? I can't recall an example off the top of my head.

I don't remember any cases where two young girls from two different families were murdered away from their homes for some type of revenge.

I do know I remember when the two young girls from OK were found murdered by a rural road in the ditch so many was sure it was a drug hit to payback a family member. That theory went on for three years until the actual suspect was finally caught, and it had nothing to do with revenge or the girls' family nor drug deals.

 

[mrtnira]

There is a difference between evidence and inference.

Also, "evidence" is just information. It can be physical or otherwise, but information has to be made sense of and turned into something that supports a narrative, or defends against a narrative -- he did it because , he didn't do it because. Sometimes the same thing can be used to support varying narratives, depending upon how it is interpreted.

Also, since information can be partial, wrong, or manipulated (willfully misrepresented), testing the evidence is a useful premise to retain if you have the ability to validate or ask questions of the original documents / physical evidence.

Logic chains also are useful to test speculation or ideas. If someone asserts something, thinking through to the next element is useful. If X (whatever X is), then Y and Z should follow. When the following necessary element (Y) is missing, it is time to re-evaluate the original assertion or understanding (rethink what X is).

 

[No it's not]

I would have to look through my links but I thought I saw some stuff about field activity there on a federal site. That said, there is this site:

Hoosier Riverwatch Database
http://www.hoosierriverwatch.com/search/#void

It has field activity related to water testing and other activities for Deer Creek. When the search page comes up use the drop down to select Carroll County. Don't select anything in the other drop downs. There will be a list that comes down and you will see activities and who conducted those activities listed.

If you look around the site you may find more information about or links to who does activities related to that specific creek.

Jethro, thank you very much for the link! I see now they accept volunteers. That is quite interesting!

http://www.in.gov/idem/riverwatch/

 

[No it's not]

"Free workshop at Purdue University/The primary objective is to train participants for volunteer water quality monitoring in the Hoosier Riverwatch program; however, we also welcome those who are just interested in the subject! "

"Come learn about the water resources that surround you every day by participating in a Hoosier Riverwatch basic training workshop. The workshop presents watershed management and water quality monitoring concepts using a mix of interesting classroom and fun field activities. Participants will learn about the chemical, biological and physical testing methods used to determine the quality of local streams. The primary objective is to train participants for volunteer water quality monitoring in the Hoosier Riverwatch program; however, we also welcome those who are just interested in the subject! "

http://www.wabashriver.net/workshops/Free workshop at Purdue University

 

[deedee21]

I have always leaned towards a random predator, lurking, and that the girls were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Now my mind is playing tricks on me, and I wonder if this was some sort of revenge killing for any dealings someone close to the girls might have had in the past, moo.

How often have we seen such a scenario in other cases here? I can't recall an example off the top of my head.

I think your first instincts are correct. Its easy to go off in different directions when a case takes to long to solve.

 

[rosesfromangels]

There is a difference between evidence and inference.

Also, "evidence" is just information. It can be physical or otherwise, but information has to be made sense of and turned into something that supports a narrative, or defends against a narrative -- he did it because , he didn't do it because. Sometimes the same thing can be used to support varying narratives, depending upon how it is interpreted.

Also, since information can be partial, wrong, or manipulated (willfully misrepresented), testing the evidence is a useful premise to retain if you have the ability to validate or ask questions of the original documents / physical evidence.

Logic chains also are useful to test speculation or ideas. If someone asserts something, thinking through to the next element is useful. If X (whatever X is), then Y and Z should follow. When the following necessary element (Y) is missing, it is time to re-evaluate the original assertion or understanding (rethink what X is).

Love this. Wish it were posted at the beginning of each thread....

 

[Deleted member 172065]

I have always leaned towards a random predator, lurking, and that the girls were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Now my mind is playing tricks on me, and I wonder if this was some sort of revenge killing for any dealings someone close to the girls might have had in the past, moo.

How often have we seen such a scenario in other cases here? I can't recall an example off the top of my head.

Not sure but the pike county (multiple family) murders in oh this year may have been some kind of revenge killings. JMO

 

[No it's not]

I would have to look through my links but I thought I saw some stuff about field activity there on a federal site. That said, there is this site:

Hoosier Riverwatch Database
http://www.hoosierriverwatch.com/search/#void

It has field activity related to water testing and other activities for Deer Creek. When the search page comes up use the drop down to select Carroll County. Don't select anything in the other drop downs. There will be a list that comes down and you will see activities and who conducted those activities listed.

If you look around the site you may find more information about or links to who does activities related to that specific creek.

Okay, so the Deer Creek Gaging station is maintained in cooperation with the Indiana Department of Environmental Management (IDEM):

https://waterdata.usgs.gov/usa/nwis/uv?site_no=03329700

Indiana Department of Environmental Management (IDEM):

http://www.in.gov/idem/

Then IDEM works with the Hoosier Riverwatch, as you have previously posted:

http://www.in.gov/idem/riverwatch/index.htm

If anyone runs into a volunteer being affiliated with the Hoosier Riverwatch, and he is app. 5'6" to 5'10" tall, has reddish brownish hair, weighs about 200 pounds and is in his 40s to 50s, that still does NOT mean he is BG..

---------

Just weighing possibilities. When it gets too heavy on one side, I just drop them..;--)

All IMO

-Nin

 

[Yemelyan]

I don't remember any cases where two young girls from two different families were murdered away from their homes for some type of revenge.

I do know I remember when the two young girls from OK were found murdered by a rural road in the ditch so many was sure it was a drug hit to payback a family member. That theory went on for three years until the actual suspect was finally caught, and it had nothing to do with revenge or the girls' family nor drug deals.

I totally agree that the Delphi murders are unlikely to be a drug hit/revenge.

OT but in reference to your statement about the Weleetka murders above; the man who pled guilty stated that he killed them because he saw them on the road and thought they were "monsters." That's his version. Prosecutors thought there was a revenge motive and planned to use it in their case against him, then he pled guilty. See this article: http://m.newsok.com/article/5117755

However, that crime also had a sexual component. Prosectors thought the girl who was thought to be the focus of the revenge had been deliberately disrobed, shot in the groin, and redressed by the killer. So it was a complex puzzle, much like the Delphi case. Different motivations...drug abuse, anger, sexual assault were all likely at play. Might be the case in Delphi too.

 

[margarita25]

(O/T, I just came across this thread and wanted to post it as a follow up to some past RL discussions we've had on these threads as related to whether or not seniors are capable of committing certain crimes. I had mentioned that I don't think pedophiles just grow out of it. I am not saying RL is BG, obvious by now, but just posting for reference and in reply to past posts, as some had asked for examples:

WA- 3 N. Seattle brothers, 78,79 & 82, arrested child sex-abuse investigation
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...amp-82-arrested-child-sex-abuse-investigation )

 

[mrtnira]

[video=youtube;cTvPXfFltSo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTvPXfFltSo[/video] This video is done by Gray Hughes discussing why he does debunking videos. He uses the interview with the sergeant in charge of the Delphi investigation as the platform to discuss how wrapped around the axle things have gotten. I appreciated he is clearly-minded (even ruthless) hunger for fact-based assessments. I had to listen to video twice to capture what Mr. Hughes was saying more fully.

Analytical modeling and methods can be pulled from multiple sources, here one person for one method, there another person for another method. In this video, Mr. Hughes is a little pointed and sarcastic, but what he's saying about the use of evidence is sound.

 

[RIP Meagan + Johnny]

I don't remember any cases where two young girls from two different families were murdered away from their homes for some type of revenge.

I do know I remember when the two young girls from OK were found murdered by a rural road in the ditch so many was sure it was a drug hit to payback a family member. That theory went on for three years until the actual suspect was finally caught, and it had nothing to do with revenge or the girls' family nor drug deals.

JMO...

Not *two* girls, but...

Before the thread got shut down at the beginning of June a discussion was going on (maybe in mid or late May?) about the girls being targets of a drug related revenge killing. Some posters thought this was inconceivable. Then another poster either linked to or typed about a case in (Eastern?) Ohio where a teenage girl was murdered because of a drug debt owed by one or both parents. I found that case so appalling and nauseating that I have tried to block the details from my memory. IIRC, the implication with Abby and Libby was one of the girls could have been the target and the other was collateral damage for just being with her friend.

HTH.
JMO.

Edit: I'm not on the bandwagon that the girls were killed because of seeing someone cooking/dealing drugs, nor because of drug-related revenge. I'm only tossing out the information that it has already been mentioned in these threads that drug related retaliation against an innocent child has happened before.

 

[JNisula]

MOO:

BG saw the two girls being dropped off, followed them, and killed them. Simple as that.

I don't think he's some mastermind, I don't think he's a serial killer, and I don't think he woke up that day knowing he was going to do what he did. I think he was just some piece of garbage that saw an opportunity and took it.