IN - Abigail Williams, 13, & Liberty German, 14, Delphi, 13 Feb 2017 #66

[Bird of Paradise]

Is this the post you are thinking of:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Delphi-13-Feb-2017-47&p=13301286#post13301286

Jethro, if this isn't already in the timeline thread, can we add it please? Would be nice to direct people to a link since talk of the water level and the girls crossing the creek comes up often.

Thanks

 

[her]

Is this the post you are thinking of:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Delphi-13-Feb-2017-47&p=13301286#post13301286

Love you! I knew I wasn't crazy.
Thanks.

 

[htiff]

If you look at the third video that Julie Melvin made with her husband, she points out a shallow crossing that is in line with where the bodies were found (or at least where crime tape remained).

Not everywhere that searchers went, was thought to be where the girls were taken. Searchers are looking for all kinds of things, including items deliberately discarded in the water. That area might be too shallow for divers, so it might have required a walk-through.

At the end of the day it doesn't really matter how they traversed the creek, because there really is no other way to have gained access to where the bodies were found, other than to cross that creek. They did it. That's all we can be sure of at this time.

[video=youtube;yQCv3TeNayk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQCv3TeNayk[/video]

 

[terpstra1]

If you look at the third video that Julie Melvin made with her husband, she points out a shallow crossing that is in line with where the bodies were found (or at least where crime tape remained).

Not everywhere that searchers went, was thought to be where the girls were taken. Searchers are looking for all kinds of things, including items deliberately discarded in the water. That area might be too shallow for divers, so it might have required a walk-through.

At the end of the day it doesn't really matter how they traversed the creek, because there really is no other way to have gained access to where the bodies were found, other than to cross that creek. They did it. That's all we can be sure of at this time.

[video=youtube;yQCv3TeNayk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQCv3TeNayk[/video]

You're right of course. It doesn't really matter where they crossed just that would have had to.

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[Bird of Paradise]

If you look at the third video that Julie Melvin made with her husband, she points out a shallow crossing that is in line with where the bodies were found (or at least where crime tape remained).

Not everywhere that searchers went, was thought to be where the girls were taken. Searchers are looking for all kinds of things, including items deliberately discarded in the water. That area might be too shallow for divers, so it might have required a walk-through.

At the end of the day it doesn't really matter how they traversed the creek, because there really is no other way to have gained access to where the bodies were found, other than to cross that creek. They did it. That's all we can be sure of at this time.

BBM & snipped for space.

It doesn't matter how WHO traversed the creek?

There is most definitely another way to gain access to where the bodies were found.

 

[htiff]

If you look at the maps of the area, and the terrain, they crossed the creek. It might not have been fun, but it was doable. And I think it points to the killer having miscalculated in some way. It would not have been ideal for him either.

It would be so interesting to create a comparison list of indicators that the killer was familiar with the area, vs. unfamiliar. How much was planned in this attack, and how much was improvised.

My thought is he may have been somewhat familiar with the area, but the opportunity to take these girls came with all kinds of unexpected issues for the guy. There's no way that I can see a vehicle being involved in the abduction---but it does seem possible that he was trying to get these girls back to the parking lot where his vehicle was (without being seen-so by way of the woods) and he miscalculated.

 

[her]

If you look at the third video that Julie Melvin made with her husband, she points out a shallow crossing that is in line with where the bodies were found (or at least where crime tape remained).

Not everywhere that searchers went, was thought to be where the girls were taken. Searchers are looking for all kinds of things, including items deliberately discarded in the water. That area might be too shallow for divers, so it might have required a walk-through.

At the end of the day it doesn't really matter how they traversed the creek, because there really is no other way to have gained access to where the bodies were found, other than to cross that creek. They did it. That's all we can be sure of at this time.

[video=youtube;yQCv3TeNayk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQCv3TeNayk[/video]

Yes, but the time this video was taken days, if not two weeks, went past and this is extremely still low water that day. I just feel it's very relevant to be clear about that as it is factual and helps to understand the time they were murdered.

 

[htiff]

BBM & snipped for space.

It doesn't matter how WHO traversed the creek?

There is most definitely another way to gain access to where the bodies were found.

Not if you are coming down off the bridge on the side nearest the private property. From there you have two choices, go back and recross the bridge, or cross the creek. A vehicle cannot easily take you to where the bodies were found.

 

[htiff]

Yes, but the time this video was taken days, if not two weeks, went past and this is extremely still low water that day. I just feel it's very relevant to be clear about that as it is factual and helps to understand the time they were murdered.

But they crossed the creek. The exact depth is moot, because there is no other way they could have gotten to that spot from where they were. Unless you have them exiting the trail, driving all the way around and then walking private property from W 300 N---which would be absurd.

 

[her]

But they crossed the creek. The exact depth is moot, because there is no other way they could have gotten to that spot from where they were. Unless you have them exiting the trail, driving all the way around and then walking private property from W 300 N---which would be absurd.

It's not moot for me, your mileage may vary. I personally lean towards them running away through the creek. How easy it was for them and the bg is important. I still won't discount another theory nor call it absurd, since I am not privy to inside information.

 

[Jethro4WS]

If you look at the third video that Julie Melvin made with her husband, she points out a shallow crossing that is in line with where the bodies were found (or at least where crime tape remained).

Not everywhere that searchers went, was thought to be where the girls were taken. Searchers are looking for all kinds of things, including items deliberately discarded in the water. That area might be too shallow for divers, so it might have required a walk-through.

At the end of the day it doesn't really matter how they traversed the creek, because there really is no other way to have gained access to where the bodies were found, other than to cross that creek. They did it. That's all we can be sure of at this time.

[video=youtube;yQCv3TeNayk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQCv3TeNayk[/video]

Every sand bar you see in this video was completely underwater on the 14th when we see it in the helicopter video. That is simply a fact. The water was also even deeper on the 13th when the girls went missing than it was on the 14th. That is also a fact.

 

[terpstra1]

If you look at the maps of the area, and the terrain, they crossed the creek. It might not have been fun, but it was doable. And I think it points to the killer having miscalculated in some way. It would not have been ideal for him either.

It would be so interesting to create a comparison list of indicators that the killer was familiar with the area, vs. unfamiliar. How much was planned in this attack, and how much was improvised.

My thought is he may have been somewhat familiar with the area, but the opportunity to take these girls came with all kinds of unexpected issues for the guy. There's no way that I can see a vehicle being involved in the abduction---but it does seem possible that he was trying to get these girls back to the parking lot where his vehicle was (without being seen-so by way of the woods) and he miscalculated.

I've always thought he parked at the back of cemetery where his car could be hidden from view. That being said, I don't believe that it was by accident that the cs is directly across from the shallowist part of the creek. Here's a d's I took from Google earth showing that it appears to be quite shallow as you can see the bottom. The red dot indicates the cs while the blue outline is the cemetery.

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[DarkSkink]

Australia, another case of murder:
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...d/news-story/a459ed625d8cdfb5f71ffa695f4b1fb9


5 witnesses who had known the suspect's deed for several years and didn't come forward. I think they only came forward when the suspect was already sitting in jail.

It's under completely different circumstances however.

In 2010, LE found one body 2 years after the disappearance, and the other 5 years after that. They didn't identify the victims until 2015. In 2008, twitter was barely operating and there was not the vast network of information and communication we have now.

It's 2017 and he's on trial after people had confirmation of the victims and spoke to LE.

 

[Bird of Paradise]

When was this picture taken?

I've always thought he parked at the back of cemetery where his car could be hidden from view. That being said, I don't believe that it was by accident that the cs is directly across from the shallowist part of the creek. Here's a d's I took from Google earth showing that it appears to be quite shallow as you can see the bottom. The red dot indicates the cs while the blue outline is the cemetery.

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[DarkSkink]

I've always thought he parked at the back of cemetery where his car could be hidden from view. That being said, I don't believe that it was by accident that the cs is directly across from the shallowist part of the creek. Here's a d's I took from Google earth showing that it appears to be quite shallow as you can see the bottom. The red dot indicates the cs while the blue outline is the cemetery.

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He may even had them walk in the creek for a while before crossing in order to make tracking them harder, like they used to do in old TV westerns and books.

The crime may have even taken place on this side of the creek, and the bodies deposited on the other side afterward to make them harder to find during the initial search and buy some getaway time.

 

[Bird of Paradise]

He may even had them walk in the creek for a while before crossing in order to make tracking them harder, like they used to do in old TV westerns and books.

The crime may have even taken place on this side of the creek, and the bodies deposited on the other side afterward to make them harder to find during the initial search and buy some getaway time.

I truly don't know if y'all are making up your own facts or you're being sarcastic with your comments.

BBM comment...there are few facts known but a member has posted FACTUAL information about the water levels for the 13th.

This thread is spinning in circles.

 

[DarkSkink]

I truly don't know if y'all are making up your own facts or you're being sarcastic with your comments.

BBM comment...there are few facts known but a member has posted FACTUAL information about the water levels for the 13th.

This thread is spinning in circles.

So they couldn't walk along the creek for a couple hundred feet in the 6 inches of water along the edge?

 

[Jethro4WS]

The above view shows an area not that far from the crime scene. The view is looking west so the south side is to the left and north to the right. Here we can see one searcher on a sand bar where it isn't so deep. We also see 6 searchers in the water not too far from that searcher. The water is rather deep. We don't know how tall those searches are but it is a good bet they are taller than the girls.

In the best case possible the creek is about 65 feet wide. There is at least 30 feet (and probably a bit wider) of water of a that kind of depth. And it would have been deeper 24 hours earlier on the 13th.

Regardless of the sand bars that exist in the creek - all of which were underwater on the 14th and more so on the 13th - it is simply not possible to have crossed that creek without going through water of similar depth for half the distance. There is no magical walkway through it. That is what it is. And that is in the very best case. Also, keep in mind that you will also see in the helicopter video that there are trees under the water as you can see where they stick out or there is a small amount of whitewater flowing around where a part of the tree barely protrudes. That means that they would also have to get over or around any debris so an optimal straight-line path on the shortest crossing point may not have been the easiest path.

None of this precludes crossing the creek. There was nothing stopping anyone from crossing the creek if they wanted to do so. But there are realities to doing so.

It does a great disservice to people if we have people believing that there is some ankle deep walkway across it on the 13th by emphasizing only the images of searchers on the sand bars or shallow water on the 14th and/or showing what the creek looked like a month later. Even on the 16th there are images and videos that show sand bars well above water and the tree debris that was underwater to give you an idea of just how fast the Deer Creek drainage area empties.

The water gage that provided the data is located not far upstream at all from the crime scene - if you follow the post I linked a few posts back. The volume of water can be seen in the graphs. When you get to the stretch of the creek where the crime scene is located the creek is narrower than the stretch of creek East of it. This means that for the same volume of water that was flowing through a wider part of the creek to pass through a much narrower part of the creek the water must rise to do so since all of that water has to go somewhere and there are phyiscal barriers (the banks on either side) that prevent it from simply widening out. This is simple physics and the behaviors of a fluid like water.

 

[terpstra1]

He may even had them walk in the creek for a while before crossing in order to make tracking them harder, like they used to do in old TV westerns and books.

The crime may have even taken place on this side of the creek, and the bodies deposited on the other side afterward to make them harder to find during the initial search and buy some getaway time.

I don't see walking the creek as it would have been very cold. Besides no one would have been looking for them at that time much less search dogs.
Secondly while possible, it's highly impracticable to move bodies across the creek. I hate using the phrase "dead weight" but that's what he would be dealing with while trying to bring them through the downed trees that appear to be littering the area. Also we see no evidence of crime tape on that side of the creek with the exception of the S end of the bridge.

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[terpstra1]

When was this picture taken?

I have no idea. It's not meant to represent the day of or the day after. I posted it to show that among other things the creek appears to be shallower across from the cs as you can see the bottom.

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