IN IN - Carmen Van Huss, 19, Indianapolis, 22 March 1993 *arrest*

  • #161
Was this the same climate theme in 1993.. So this is upscale area, working family, college adults type of theme. How far is nearest store from this apartment. You say there's woods/parks near by. I'm wondering if the killer took this route. Would this be the ideal path to take and not be seen? by the way thank you.

I'm asking because he killer may have gotten blood on him that night and he would take route that's the fastest and the most unseen.. Also from what I take this route leads to a lot of opening to discard things. Do these woods or parks have public trash cans in them.?

At that time, I think there was a Marsh grocery etc.. just east of the complex and there is a shopping center across the street. Maybe O'Malias etc... was there at that time? Wells Flowers was right across the street too. I'm pretty sure there was also another hospital right behind St. Vs at that time.
 
  • #162
Many large cities track building construction from year to year by photo's from a fly over in a small airplane. Some cities have been doing this for a very long time. Maybe someone has easy access to the building inspection department and can get a copy of the photo from this time frame, this should be public information. The area then could be outlined as to what was what by those in the know at the time. The area around the apartment and information on the car she had would be most helpful.
 
  • #163
Cheers, Bessie -

"Been there, tried that" - how tired did you get, how quickly? Without adrenaline pumping, I guess it makes a huge difference. But it's still a lot of energy expended, a lot of momentum behind that kind of effort.

<rsbm>

I should have been more specific. I worked a similar type of stabbing scene for a stage combat class when I was younger and more fit. It was strenuous and exhausting, even then. The adrenaline was there, too, but in that situation the trick is to keep one's adrenaline in check so as to maintain control. That would not be the case in a real life attack unless the killer was highly organized.
 
  • #164
I thought about this some more, and does anyone else think that 50 stab wounds not only means she probably knew the killer ... but that the killer had known her for some time? Probably harboring these feelings for years? I think it's likely that there were long pent up feelings. Probably the killer had fantasized about her or pursued her for a long time. Maybe even they lost contact for some months or years, but then were re-acquainted. Perhaps he asked her out and was turned down several times, showing a pattern of obsession and rejection that built up over some time, or they had dated in junior high or high school. Or it could be a male family member or male family member of a close friend ... someone she had known for a long time.

Whatever the case, I think the killer must have obsessed over her for a long time, whether they were in constant contact with each other, or with gaps of not seeing each other. But these twisted emotions and thoughts (I hate to call them feelings) must have been built up over a prolonged time for there to be that much overkill.
IMO, it's possible, but not necessarily true. "Overkill" can occur in stranger attacks. Carl Eugene Watts, known as the "Sunday Morning Slasher", is an example of that type of killer. Rebecca Greer and Glenda Richmond are two of his victims who suffered many stab wounds (over 50 in the case of Greer). http://murderpedia.org/male.W/w/watts-carl-eugene.htm

In Wisconsin, during the late 60's and the 70's, women were found dead with excessive numbers of stab wounds. Diane Olkwitz was stabbed over 100x; Terri Erdmann 50x; Tina Davidson 60x.

http://www.newspapers.com/clip/122389/diane_olkwitz/
http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...IBAJ&dq=mary ellen kaldenberg&pg=5974,1543022
http://news.google.com/newspapers?i...AIBAJ&dq=tina davidson murder&pg=6373,3010626

These are cases that come to mind now, but there have been others in different parts of the country (the world, for that matter). JMO

Having said all of that, I find the idea of a renewed contact to be an interesting one, as in a former classmate, for instance. This person might have moved on to a new town, and returned to Indy temporarily for a family visit, or on business, while at the same time, he was motivated by a fixation with Carmen. That's probably the worst case scenario because it could mean he left Indianapolis, and no one has ever made the association between his visit and Carmen's murder. He went on to be a creep (abuser, killer) in a different city, and he'll only be ID'd as Carmen's killer if by chance a random DNA match pops up one day.
 
  • #165
Just recapping a bit of a timeline here..

Monday evening, March 22: Carmen spends time with her family at Community South Hospital, visiting her sick grandma.

10 p.m: Carmen and her family leave the hospital. Carmen is driving.

10.30 pm: Carmen drops off her father and her 3 yr old brother off at their Southside home. Carmen refuses an offer to stay the night, saying she had to get home and wash her uniform for work the next day.

About 11 p.m. to 11:30 p.m: Carmen is heard walking up the hall to her apartment with a man with whom she was talking and laughing.

March 23, 1 a.m. -- 1:30 a.m: a "loud commotion" is heard in the apartment. Carmen is heard shouting "Get off me! Get off me!"

1.30 am: hurried footsteps are heard departing the apartments.

For those local to the area, how long would it have taken Carmen to drive from her family's home to her own apartment, rough ballpark?

There's 2-2.5 hours between Carmen and her guest arriving, to "the loud commotion". There's evidence that Carmen and her guest shared food and drinks, so things -could- have been relatively relaxed during that time. It's a substantial amount of time.

Not a *lot* of time elapses between the commotion and the footsteps.

All up, there's roughly 3 hours between Carmen dropping her dad off and the hurried footsteps.
 
  • #166
Does anyone know what street her dad her lived in at the time?

I'm thinking, there's around a half hour drive from the grandma's hospital to Carmen's apt block, according to Google. It was late, so traffic was likely not congested. Carmen's dad's place is somewhere between the hospital and her home. I'll assume some time is spent there for goodbyes, chit chat, removal of tired small child from her car, etc. She leaves there at around 10.30. It can't be more than 20-25 mins drive from her dad's to her home (and without dad's street, that is a wild guess but broad ballpark). She's heard at her apt block laughing and talking with the man, somewhere between 11 and 11.30...

It's be nice if that time was more pinpointed. Still, it's not a lot of time, 10.30 - 11-11.30 ish. Take 15, 20 mins away for the actual driving time. That leaves rough ballpark 5-10 mins, or up to 40-50 mins for her to meet up with this guy somewhere, if indeed she did.

It's late, she's been at work that day, spent the evening with family in a probably emotional situation (hospital visits are often quite draining), she has to work the next day... I'm really not seeing a planned hook-up atmosphere, here.

It's also late enough that I must suppose she'd likely eaten an evening meal prior to getting home, especially if she was with family. I just don't feel she'd at that time of night be all that interested in going out of her way for a six pack and a full meal.

My guess right now is, the food and drinks were all the guy, his evening meal. Which he's brought to Carmen's home, and which they shared. My feeling is, he's used to meal to get her to feel at ease, part of how he got her to agree to let him in. I have the feeling this was a planned "seduction" on his behalf, but maybe he came "prepared" for the possibility that she might reject him..

So yup, at this stage I'm on board with the posters thinking ex-bf, old school buddy with an obsession... someone who wanted to *possess* Carmen, above and beyond emotional obsession. "If I can't have her no-one will"? If this is so, he may have been watching, waiting, planning... Was he really hanging around with food and beer in his car, waiting for her to get home from work... and she's out later than he thought... and just had to know where she'd been, and who with... thought the time was right to 'make his move'..

.. but was he too gutless to make that move for several hours... maybe Carmen asked him to leave, hinted it's late, he ought to go.. and in his mind, he's fully expecting to stay the night/Carmen to put out for him.

Idk, just my wheels spinning.
 
  • #167
My daughter who lives near 79th and Harcourt traveled one day per week to Community South- during traffic it was easily 45 minutes, sometimes an hour.
 
  • #168
The rumor mill of my circle of friends pointed to someone within it. We had some mutual friends but she was younger than me. That is all I'm going to say.
 
  • #169
I agree with the neighbor theory. This could be someone she often made small talk with when they ran into each other in the hallway. Did the neighbor who heard them in the hall hear what was said between the two? Did it sound like small talk or someone she was actually friends with?

I just can't help but feeling that Carmen ran into this person as she was getting home. It's also possible that she had planned to meet up with someone. If so, did she pick him up on the way home, as they arrived at the same time? Or did they just happen to get there at the same time? Lots of questions.
 
  • #170
Does anyone know what street her dad her lived in at the time?

I'm thinking, there's around a half hour drive from the grandma's hospital to Carmen's apt block, according to Google. It was late, so traffic was likely not congested. Carmen's dad's place is somewhere between the hospital and her home. I'll assume some time is spent there for goodbyes, chit chat, removal of tired small child from her car, etc. She leaves there at around 10.30. It can't be more than 20-25 mins drive from her dad's to her home (and without dad's street, that is a wild guess but broad ballpark). She's heard at her apt block laughing and talking with the man, somewhere between 11 and 11.30...

It's be nice if that time was more pinpointed. Still, it's not a lot of time, 10.30 - 11-11.30 ish. Take 15, 20 mins away for the actual driving time. That leaves rough ballpark 5-10 mins, or up to 40-50 mins for her to meet up with this guy somewhere, if indeed she did.

It's late, she's been at work that day, spent the evening with family in a probably emotional situation (hospital visits are often quite draining), she has to work the next day... I'm really not seeing a planned hook-up atmosphere, here.

It's also late enough that I must suppose she'd likely eaten an evening meal prior to getting home, especially if she was with family. I just don't feel she'd at that time of night be all that interested in going out of her way for a six pack and a full meal.

My guess right now is, the food and drinks were all the guy, his evening meal. Which he's brought to Carmen's home, and which they shared. My feeling is, he's used to meal to get her to feel at ease, part of how he got her to agree to let him in. I have the feeling this was a planned "seduction" on his behalf, but maybe he came "prepared" for the possibility that she might reject him..

So yup, at this stage I'm on board with the posters thinking ex-bf, old school buddy with an obsession... someone who wanted to *possess* Carmen, above and beyond emotional obsession. "If I can't have her no-one will"? If this is so, he may have been watching, waiting, planning... Was he really hanging around with food and beer in his car, waiting for her to get home from work... and she's out later than he thought... and just had to know where she'd been, and who with... thought the time was right to 'make his move'..

.. but was he too gutless to make that move for several hours... maybe Carmen asked him to leave, hinted it's late, he ought to go.. and in his mind, he's fully expecting to stay the night/Carmen to put out for him.

Idk, just my wheels spinning.
A couple of us came to the same conclusion in the beginning of the thread. There just wasn't enough time for Carmen to stop at a club on her way home, make contact, and end up at her apartment with a "pick-up" in tow. My other thought was a spontaneous "stop and chat" in the parking lot or laundry room, that moved to her apartment. As I posted later, though, the weather wasn't conducive for this type of encounter -- chilly, rainy, foggy, with a sliver of moon. So I return to my initial hunch: Carmen had a planned get together with this person, who, imo, was a casual acquaintance. These are the three categories I see as possibles:


  • a person from the past, e.g., a former classmate, neighbor, or co-worker, but one she didn't socialize with closely. When she met up with him again he was different, a little more mature and attractive.
  • a new acquaintance with no link to her other friends, such as a new co-worker, apt tenant, car mechanic, exterminator, cable guy.
  • a friend of a friend, bf's friend, someone on the periphery of her usual crowd. Actually, this latter group is in line with LE's description of someone in a "secondary circle of friends".
JMO

Carter thinks that the man likely was in Van Huss' circle of friends or acquaintances, but that for some reason he was not suspected. The detective hopes anyone who knew Van Huss might think back to that time to reflect on men she knew. Police did look into other men with whom Van Huss had been intimate, but they checked out, so the killer might have been someone who was a platonic acquaintance or in a secondary circle of friends, Carter suggested.
http://www.indystar.com/story/news/crime/2014/04/19/indiana-unsolved-carmen-van-huss/7903283/




ETA:
Adding Detective Will Carter's contact info

quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by willcarter

Thank you for featuring Carmen's case. My direct number is (317)327-1270 and department email is [email protected] if anyone has information.
 
  • #171
The rumor mill of my circle of friends pointed to someone within it. We had some mutual friends but she was younger than me. That is all I'm going to say.
No, please don't say anything more here. I sure hope someone among this "circle of friends" has shared his/her suspicions with LE, however.

I agree with the neighbor theory. This could be someone she often made small talk with when they ran into each other in the hallway. Did the neighbor who heard them in the hall hear what was said between the two? Did it sound like small talk or someone she was actually friends with?

I just can't help but feeling that Carmen ran into this person as she was getting home. It's also possible that she had planned to meet up with someone. If so, did she pick him up on the way home, as they arrived at the same time? Or did they just happen to get there at the same time? Lots of questions.
I think the meeting was planned. She probably had some idea what time she'd be home, and if the guy showed up early, he just waited in the parking lot knowing she'd be along soon. I wonder if she made any phone calls from the hospital or her father's house. Or from her cell phone, if she had one.
 
  • #172
My daughter who lives near 79th and Harcourt traveled one day per week to Community South- during traffic it was easily 45 minutes, sometimes an hour.

Thanks, MMJ - so maybe we could assume the drive at 10.30-11 pm, when the traffic would be less, might be somewhere between 30-40 mins.
 
  • #173
It could have been a planned meet up. Knowing that she'd spent the day at the hospital with family and maybe hadn't eaten much/well, he may have offered to bring her food. We don't even know how much food there was, do we? To know if it was likely to be for one or two. I wonder how much of the beer was consumed... and how many by her vs guest.
 
  • #174
According to the "experts" it is highly unusual to murder a stranger in such a rage. It is almost always a person who knows the victim who shows this amount of rage. It's personal.
 
  • #175
I thought about this some more, and does anyone else think that 50 stab wounds not only means she probably knew the killer ... but that the killer had known her for some time? Probably harboring these feelings for years? I think it's likely that there were long pent up feelings. Probably the killer had fantasized about her or pursued her for a long time. Maybe even they lost contact for some months or years, but then were re-acquainted. Perhaps he asked her out and was turned down several times, showing a pattern of obsession and rejection that built up over some time, or they had dated in junior high or high school. Or it could be a male family member or male family member of a close friend ... someone she had known for a long time.

Whatever the case, I think the killer must have obsessed over her for a long time, whether they were in constant contact with each other, or with gaps of not seeing each other. But these twisted emotions and thoughts (I hate to call them feelings) must have been built up over a prolonged time for there to be that much overkill.


You are absolutely correct in your thinking. I just posted something about that, before reading your post.
 
  • #176
IMO, the facts combined point toward the killer being a person known to Carmen, and not a random stranger.


Sarah Goode was a 21 year-old mother in Medford, NY. In early June, she was murdered in a brutal attack inside of her car. On Thursday, a suspect was arrested in Florida. I found a few facts of interest in respect to Carmen's murder, and thought I'd post them here, fwiw.


  • Suspect had a history of violence, with a warrant against him for an attempted rape at knife point in 2011.
  • Suspect and Sarah Goode knew each other, but how well is still unclear. Family members seem to think the two met only recently at a party.
  • It is known that the two exchanged cell phone calls and/or texts on the night of the murder.
  • The attack was very violent and brutal. If the report is correct, Sarah was beaten and slashed (numerous times with a metal object) after she was raped.
  • Suspect was disorganized, leaving behind blood, his semen and his own palm print. LE also found bloodstained clothing belonging to the suspect.
  • Suspect is a former Marine. (This stood out to me because of my hunch that the killer was a person who reconnected with Carmen, and whom she found different -- more mature and attractive -- than when she knew him previously.)

Anyway, I don't want to get too far off track. I just thought that looking at an emerging case with more known facts might in some way shed light on the possibilities in Carmen's murder.

http://7online.com/news/police-arrest-man-in-murder-of-medford-mom/120909/

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/man-arrested-death-long-island-mom-cops-article-1.1864201
 
  • #177
Well, now I can't get this notion out of my head. Were there any servicemen in Carmen's realm of friends and acquaintances? One who returned from the Persian Gulf wound a little too tightly from the stress of being deployed in Kuwait or Baghdad? And who, perhaps, was already fixated on Carmen before his departure for the Middle East?
 
  • #178
Just to clear the air a bit, there is a very distinct difference between "Lust murder" and sadism

Each of these have a specific criteria to make that determination, however I haven't read anywhere where these were present at this scene.

Though both of these are a result of a paraphilia's they both have distinct behavioral differences.

Ill refrain from going into the specifics, but I don't feel this was a lust murder, and there's no evidence mentioned to support sadism (torture etc..)

Ok as always Profile the victim through a victimology analysis

(I wont post it again, because its so damn large, unless someone wants me to)

But establish why she was a victim, establish her risk criteria, establish the risk criteria for the offender.

Scrutinize, who she hung around with, look at her phone records, who did she talk to , who visited recently .

Did something happen recently?

Was she being stalked by anyone ?

It would be IMPERATIVE to establish if the murder weapon came from the residence, or if it was brought by the killer, from what I read the weapon was both brought and removed.

we can also look for POST offensive behavior, did any of her friends, all the sudden and unexplainably move ?, anyone notice any of her friends, have an sudden increase, in alcohol or drug use?, anyone change their appearance?



Though the victim was killed, we have to ask the question, is this more of a rape, gone wrong, or a planned murder with a sexual element?

Being since the sexual assault appears to be ante-mortem (before death) we can make a scientific assumption the motive for this crime was rape with murder secondary

Rape generally falls into 3 categories, (Power/Anger/Opportunity) with 4 subcategories that make up the first 2 typologies .

I use these typologies, because the offender, was organized enough to bring a weapon , or had it on his person in the first place

1) Power (most common) 2 types (Reassurance/Assertive)
2) Anger (less common) 2 types (Retaliatory/Excitation)
3) Opportunistic -Rape during the commission of another crime, (Ex burglary)


There's no mention of her being robbed, or anything taken from the victim or her apt, I also didn't read anywhere that the victim was bound or restrained, in any way , so opportunistic rape tentatively can be set aside.

Anger Retaliatory types, (as well as Sadists) usually attack strangers, id expect to see various forms of humiliation, these are individuals "haters" if you will , of something real or perceived. they feel an injustice has been laid upon them and they seek to make the victim pay (whether it be direct, indirect, or reflective) wrongs.

Often injuries targeted at sexual organs , usually severe depersonalization, humiliation, scripting (forcing the victim to say or act a certain way) are present . The victim often suffers more blunt trauma, than is needed to force victim compliance.

The problem is that this is usually not planned, and is most often a type of spontaneous response, to some triggering event. Hence the offender most often DOESNT bring a weapon. He usually relies, on his fists, or what he can access readily at the crime scene.

There's no evidence of torture, or prolonged, suffering by the victim, PLUS, Sadists (anger excitation) rapists, don't generally assault those they know, about 90% percent are strangers. Not to mention they are the least common typology (2%). Sadism usually requires time with the victim, for without the stimulation of an suffering victim, the offender, cannot begin toe arousal or gratification process. "Its always by way of pain, one arrives at pleasure "..Marquis De Sade


The Power reassurance rapist (the most common type) or "gentleman rapist" is basically someone who seeks to reaffirm their masculinity, through the process of rape. He often rapes strangers whom he tries (though it will sound odd) to connect to intimately. He will often caress the victim, kiss the victim, talk to the victim the way a significant other would. He has NO intention of physically injuring the victim, unless its what's needed to force victim compliance, which can has included violence up to and including murder in rare cases. .

He may conduct surveillance, on the victim prior , and most often uses, a surprise style of attack, though he may attempt to do so through con or ruse.

He's often apologetic following the rape, sometimes before or during, often suffers from some type of sexual dysfunction , may or may not take a trophy.

This type will often re-contact victims, through the delusion the victim actually enjoyed the assault , and may wish to pursue a relationship with the offender.

Though we can speculate that the victim resistance to the attack MAY have been the catalyst for her murder, I find that difficult to say, due to the amount of overkill (50+ stab wounds) and the fact the offender brought and removed the weapon


That leaves one type, Power Assertive rape.

The power assertive type is the second most common type of rapist .

The Power assertive, is basically your "macho" type, who feels its his right as male to take sexually that which he desires.

Date rape is not beyond his realm of behavior
Will often use enough force to force victim compliance, but will escalate along with victim resistance, (he cant let a victim, especially a female, physically or mentally dominate him)

Often meets the victim immediately prior to the attack, could be hours, or even minutes.

Demonstrates little concern for the victim, often callous indifference , will often cut (if he brought a weapon) or tear her clothes off.

Psychologically women are a means of gratification (sexual release) that's it, to him its his unwritten right as a male. Therefore he may frequent singles bars, singles events, dating sites, may frequent prostitutes, even though he may be in a relationship

If he is in a relationship, it will be one of mostly dominance by him with a somewhat submissive partner, whom he may be significantly older than.

May or may not bring a weapon, if he does its usually a weapon of choice, (knife or gun most often)

May commit multiple assaults within a small timeframe
(investigative consideration, check to see if there were any other assaults bearing this type of behavior in the hours, or days following her murder!)

he often knows his victim... which is what we all seem to identify with on this case. We know she resisted , at least verbally, which to the above type individual could trigger, an escalation of force, needed.. It may have also been a way to eliminate a witness, if he felt threatened she would call police post offense.

Though my feeling is she fought him, and he escalated, to the point he was going to "show her"

This all seems to exist in this case within a interpersonal realm with the offender and victim (She knew him)

I think she knew him. A causal friend from work or someone who lives in the apartment building. Probably someone who mistook her friendship for interest in him. He most likely had a thing for her for awhile.
 
  • #179
ETA: Why didn't her attacker take off as soon as Carmen yelled loud enough for the neighbors to hear?
Maybe the person knew the building occupants well enough to know that Mr. x is hard of hearing, Mrs. Z is gone on vacation, etc.

I am really curious about the person who reported the noise. What a better way to create an alibi for yourself than to complain to the apt. manager about the noise. Were the exact words "get off of me" heard by more than one tenant? If not, what did the other people in the building who claimed to have heard noise hear? How many other people heard any noise that evening?

I too am very curious about who reported the noise and if anyone else heard the noise or her screams. Was this person male, married or single etc. i don't think we are given enough info in this case. Mop
 
  • #180
This info Is very, very good. this tell us a lot of things. It tell us this guy had alot good options, maybe even was from around this area. He could drive and not be seen and and also walk, because this area is morning working area 9-5pm type of theme, even 6-8am none would be up arms about seeing him out because its a natural thing to see. (people going to work).By janes distance given estimates it pretty much smooth sailing in any way we put it. It also says he went the nearest store to get beer that night right across the street mostly likely.

Im Hoping they drank beer not just soda pop ;) .. Im really hoping here. I have seen her shirts and clothing in pictures and she wears men/male sized shirts. I don't know if her apartment was ransacked or the closets ran through.. I think this guy might took one of her shirts. Because stabbing 50 times is a lot of blood.

the things get me the most the part were jane say the trash is picked up by the hospital. Most likely every day or every other day.. I'm thinking he knew this as well. That's a very great evidence killer for a murder case or crime it one of reason hospital trash and dumpster are made private now days.. Hospitals where I stay do the same thing in there rehab/fitness parks areas.. they burn the trash and soiled clothing from surgeries. So if that's the case here. He would drive or walk to this park and dump all evidence right there. It smart because none would be out in these hours or think anything of it. The area climate is not for being alerted of murder or crime. So my best guess is he was from around this area, he is local some what.


I want to know Did she own a house rug or floor carpet. Blood doesn't come out of leather shoes to easy. It leave prints every time.
 

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