IN - Couple charged with abandonment of adopted child after legally changing her age, Sept 2019

[Scrapper18]

No, the person who knew her said she disappeared from the area in Sept 2013, the reason turned out that she was evicted. Since the original parents had left her with a years rental, it meant they left her around Sept 2012. The Mans family tried to get her birth date changed back 2003, meaning the original parents left her when she was around "9", not 12. During that year she was alone she enrolled in adult education programs and took care of herself. As a disabled "nine year old" with serious issues. Ya, sure. It is worth noting that the woman who knew her thought she was at least 18 based on the conversations they had, and the adult education center where she attended classes has requirements for who is allowed to attend. You have to have a junior high level of knowledge, they evaluate your math, science and English skills in a placement test before admitting you. So they thought she was an adult as well. These are people who actually knew her, not someone who looked at a few photos on the internet. I would say their opinion carries considerably more weight than yours in that regard.

Saying that kids in Ukrainian orphanages have to look after themselves might mean there is not a lot of supervision, but they are still in a prison like facility and would have absolutely no idea how to support themselves in the outside world. So, how does that translate into how she was behaving here in the US? Where did she learn these skills? Keeping in mind that she supposedly has learning/psychological disabilities as well. It does not add up. She is not a street child, she has been in institutions and adoptive homes all her life if the account is to be believed. Street kids can be young in third world countries, but those are environments where you are expected to grow up quickly, in a lot of those places a 13 year old is considered to be essentially adult by the community anyway, which is why you have young teenagers looking after themselves in those places. That is not the case with this girl, those conditions do not exist in Ukraine or America. So how did she acquire these skills?

A large part of why all of this is happening now is because the new family wants to adopt her, and in order for them to do that she has to be recognized as a child again otherwise they can't do it. And if she is recognized as a child again, then the old family has to be charged since it would imply that they abandoned a child. For one to happen the other has to as well, and since the old family is out of the picture they are expendable.

This. This is where I keep getting hung up and confused about what I believe in this case. How did she survive on her own, attend adult education classes and pass herself off as an adult to those around her?

I have a daughter, adopted from Russia. I’ve also been on mission trips to the Ukraine, where we went into orphanages. The orphanages are rough and kids have a lot of unsupervised time. But, it is all inside. They have access to one, maybe two, rooms. They have no idea on western standards of proper personal hygiene. They don’t know how to cook, not even a microwave. They are far from street savvy. Additionally, they are delayed in all areas. When we adopted, we were told to expect one month of delay for every three months spent in the orphanage. So, if this girl was adopted at age 5 - 60 months (at youngest and assuming she had been there since birth), you could expect a delay of 20 months. (If I did my math correctly). So, especially emotionally and cognitively, she would more than likely present as a 3.5 year old, at adoption. It takes a while to overcome these delays, though not impossible. Due to trauma, I’m sure she was very difficult to handle and probably started on medication to help with behavior. Risperdal is a common drug they give to kids to help with behavior. The side effects from this drug alone can cause early puberty.

All that to say, I still don’t know what to believe. Waiting to see actual vetted evidence produced in court. I think I’d be a good juror for this one - no opinions, yet! Oh, one more interesting tidbit, when we were in court in Russia, we were asked if we wanted to change our daughter’s birthdate. When we asked why, they said they could make her younger to better fit in due to her delays and small size. She was only 15 months old (wearing a size 6-9 months). We graciously declined the offer. I still think that is an odd practice.

 

[gitana1]

She's clearly put on weight, that makes your face change and your grow....
I know that for a fact!

Really? From utterly flat chested to what looks like a C or D cup? She's not close to obese. That respectfully makes no sense. Again, for comparison: When they had her to now is attached.

 

[gitana1]

She was living alone for over a year when she was supposedly 12 with disabilities. That seems pretty unlikely, how would she be able to do that if that were so? So maybe the adoptive parents have a point.

No. We absolutely have no evidence she lived alone for a year. The currently family states they've had her since 2013. The witness who said she was desperate for attention also said she disappeared in the same year she was left -2013.

 

[Indy_ar]

No. We absolutely have no evidence she lived alone for a year. The currently family states they've had her since 2013. The witness who said she was desperate for attention also said she disappeared in the same year she was left -2013.

I agree that there is no proof that she was alone for a long period of time. There were comments in one of the original articles from the family that took her that seem to indicate otherwise. I think that the facts are more solid indicating that she is the age her birth mother indicates.
First, there appears to be a birth certificate (dailymail saw it) that corroborates her age.
Second, there were two independent doctors in 2010 and 2012 that using bone density and cranial development assessed her age to be young (cranial development is what is used by forensic doctors to estimate the age of young kids remains)
Third, the pictures appear to show the development from childhood to teenage years.

I must add that when I moved here to the USA, my 5 year old daughter didn't speak any English. She learned it during kindergarten. By the time she was in first grade, you could not guess that English was not her primary language. I also need to note that I have met friends that immigrated here as well and since they don't practice their native language with their kids, the kids have completely forgotten it.

 

[forthelost]

Can anyone really believe that an adult, even one with dwarfism, could convincingly fake as a five year old? If the changed age is accurate, she would have been sixteen then.

 

[gitana1]

One orphanage. There is no reason to believe that all the rest are like that as well.

Yeah there is. The state of care for disabled "orphans" in the Ukraine is well documented. It's a national problem.

"Children in institutions in Ukraine are exposed to physical and sexual violence and live in danger of being trafficked for sex, labor, and , the report said. The organization’s president, Laurie Ahern, said children with disabilities often are the worst abused and most languish in institutions their entire lives."
Ukraine’s disabled children in dire straits, group says - The Boston Globe

 

[gitana1]

But it is from how she is dressed and the angles of the photos. You see what you want to see. Other people do not.

She's standing straight up in the red dress/shirt photo. There's no chest there. She's not hunched over.

 

[gitana1]

No, the person who knew her said she disappeared from the area in Sept 2013, the reason turned out that she was evicted. Since the original parents had left her with a years rental, it meant they left her around Sept 2012. The Mans family tried to get her birth date changed back 2003, meaning the original parents left her when she was around "9", not 12. During that year she was alone she enrolled in adult education programs and took care of herself. As a disabled "nine year old" with serious issues. Ya, sure. It is worth noting that the woman who knew her thought she was at least 18 based on the conversations they had, and the adult education center where she attended classes has requirements for who is allowed to attend. You have to have a junior high level of knowledge, they evaluate your math, science and English skills in a placement test before admitting you. So they thought she was an adult as well. These are people who actually knew her, not someone who looked at a few photos on the internet. I would say their opinion carries considerably more weight than yours in that regard.

Saying that kids in Ukrainian orphanages have to look after themselves might mean there is not a lot of supervision, but they are still in a prison like facility and would have absolutely no idea how to support themselves in the outside world. So, how does that translate into how she was behaving here in the US? Where did she learn these skills? Keeping in mind that she supposedly has learning/psychological disabilities as well. It does not add up. She is not a street child, she has been in institutions and adoptive homes all her life if the account is to be believed. Street kids can be young in third world countries, but those are environments where you are expected to grow up quickly, in a lot of those places a 13 year old is considered to be essentially adult by the community anyway, which is why you have young teenagers looking after themselves in those places. That is not the case with this girl, those conditions do not exist in Ukraine or America. So how did she acquire these skills?

A large part of why all of this is happening now is because the new family wants to adopt her, and in order for them to do that she has to be recognized as a child again otherwise they can't do it. And if she is recognized as a child again, then the old family has to be charged since it would imply that they abandoned a child. For one to happen the other has to as well, and since the old family is out of the picture they are expendable.

You are simply mistaken:

"Then, in July 2013, the couple set the girl up in an apartment in Tippecanoe County and moved to Canada with their two sons."

In June 2010, a doctor estimated her age at 8, but an evaluation in June 2012 showed the girl was about 11 years old, court documents said.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost...-is-actually-a-scam-artist-with-dwarfism/amp/

She would have been about 12 in 2013 when they left her. Not 9.

Here's an alternate source for that info if you don't like that link:

Parents accused of abandoning adopted child in apartment; mom says it’s a ‘scam’

 

[gitana1]

Can anyone really believe that an adult, even one with dwarfism, could convincingly fake as a five year old? If the changed age is accurate, she would have been sixteen then.

And 28 now.

 

[Medstudies]

BIB

Hopefully this doesn't post too small to read:

If it is too small this link works for me:
http://media.heartlandtv.com/images/barnett-michael-document.jpg

I’m just going to post a few images of official letterhead of IU Health from 2012 to 2018. (All images shown as uploaded online)

Note: The logo typeset/layout has remained unchanged. So, it bugs me that the letter submitted by the family does not match that of corporate wide stationery.

Past experience: when new letterhead is rolled out, every site rolls out at the same time. All old product is destroyed.

I’d love to see it in person since they use a specific stock paper for correspondence...

Obviously, this is to be considered MOO, since I am not a verified member.

Also: A quick online search will pull up the logo: if one were to want to copy it.

Edit: deleted unnecessary info

 

[Linda7NJ]

Adoptive moms rebuttal posted on her Facebook

Kristine Barnett

 

[bfin1995]

Adoptive moms rebutted posted on her Facebook

Kristine Barnett

Watching now. It's 48 minutes long and it's bonkers.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Watching now. It's 48 minutes long and it's bonkers.

It’s rambling and very raw. Not much thought went into it. Totally unscripted.

I find that odd for an author ...but I still firmly believe her and that her adopted daughter is an adult.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Adoptive mother also made a point of calling out the “new family” and their knowledge & motivations.

I felt they were collectors of disrupted adoptions - neither parent works - they collect the government benefits

THe Mann’s were told to not have contact with Natalia

 

[bfin1995]

Arghhh did the video get taken down? It stopped halfway and isn't visible on her page anymore.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Arghhh did the video get taken down? It stopped halfway and isn't visible on her page anymore.

Yep, it’s down

 

[Linda7NJ]

Natalia had TWO prior failed adoptive placements according to Barnett

 

[bfin1995]

 

[Linda7NJ]

I’m just going to post a few images of official letterhead of IU Health from 2012 to 2018. (All images shown as uploaded online)

Note: The logo typeset/layout has remained unchanged. So, it bugs me that the letter submitted by the family does not match that of corporate wide stationery.

Past experience: when new letterhead is rolled out, every site rolls out at the same time. All old product is destroyed.

I’d love to see it in person since they use a specific stock paper for correspondence...

Obviously, this is to be considered MOO, since I am not a verified member.

Also: A quick online search will pull up the logo: if one were to want to copy it.

Edit: deleted unnecessary info

Really? From utterly flat chested to what looks like a C or D cup? She's not close to obese. That respectfully makes no sense. Again, for comparison: When they had her to now is attached.
View attachment 208362

View attachment 208363

Musta been camera angle ...

 

[forthelost]

I'm guessing she never explained how a seventeen year old could fake being five. Anyone who's spent time around both of those ages would know how impossible that is.