IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #3

[oviedo]

What? What am I missing?

Cruise: Grandfather charged after accidentally dropping toddler to her death from ship

 

[Mauig’ma]

Emotions run high in this type of case. But do you think you would feel the same if your cousin picked up one of your grandchildren and held them out of window a moving car to let the pretend they were a dog, only to drop them and they were killed? Would you just accept it and say, oh, just an accident. Cousin didn't mean any harm? Or would you want him to learn a lesson on responsibility and obviously have to LEARN that he was WRONG and should have never held her out that window? Could you forgive him?

I would like to think I would forgive him. Blaming someone isn’t going to bring um back. Forgiveness is an important part of healing. Moo

 

[Aydrianna523]

I would like to think I would forgive him. Blaming someone isn’t going to bring um back. Forgiveness is an important part of healing. Moo

Me? I'd have a very hard time forgiving a murderer, but someone who UNINTENTIONALLY killed....
Hopefully I could.
Add on: Gotta say a doctor let my gdaughter's tumor get huge before she did anything about it. I'm still a bit angry. Unintentional. Probably.
Add on: My gdaughter was a toddler at the time and ALSO a Chloe.

 

[Montrealaise]

I read this post and said to myself, "Maybe I'll change my mind". Then I looked to see who wrote it. I remember your posts from the Frazee case. I guess what I'm seeing now is that he wouldn't take a breathalyzer. Now THAT doesn't sound real good.
But I'm still a believer in the windows being closed. Wasn't that a child's play area? There's people drinking, vision problems, distractions, medications that could affect alertness, arthritis, human error, too many variables. And you don't necessarily have to be old to have that stuff, although it doesnt help any.
I remember the worst thing I ever did. I had a baby in a car seat coming out of the doctor's office. I vaguely remember setting down something. I must have let go of my toddler's hand. She took off running down an enclosed corridor towards the car lane. Freaked me out. I couldn't catch her. Fortunately, no cars coming.
But something needs to change in safety on cruises imo... too many accidents. Of course, I consider myself 'The Safety Director' of my family.
Opinion subject to change.

It is NOT a children's play area, even though the family's lawyer keeps calling it that (which I think is deliberately misleading). It's an adult lounge - I've seen photographs of the area, and you can see tables and chairs and people having cocktails. Saying that it's a children's play area implies that children can access the windows, but those windows are about five feet off the ground, way above any toddler's head. The only way a child can reach a window is if an adult lifts her up and over the safety railing.
As for the accidents on cruises - from what I've read, they're almost always the result of someone doing something really stupid, like sitting on a railing in order to get a selfie.

 

[jeena]

I think the kids should stay at home, too. My daughter wanted me to watch my gdaughter at an event at a big trampoline building during a party she gave.
But an ankle injury slowed me down. There were steps, railing, too. I literally freaked out and told her, "No, I cant do it! I cant keep up with her (the 2 year old)!
Her daddy took over. Whew! Grandparents need to say 'no' sometimes.
Hopefully, this gpa wasn't concealing the fact he couldn't keep up. Yes, it was foolish thing him lifting her, though.
There's so much goes into grandparenting.

Baby proof a cruise liner is not, who would want to worry about every step a toddler makes when you go on vacation to relax?

Honestly, I was appalled to see how close the rail was to that window, and to think SA put that baby up there, glass or no glass, is unforgivable. I got anxiety just looking at height of the window from the photo. I always stay away from the edge of piers, cliffs, etc., and never drive in the right lane going over a bridge.
No sense lamenting about how things could have been done differently to save Chloe, coulda, woulda, shoulda....Terrible tragedy.

 

[Montrealaise]

I suppose it's true. I suppose this story touches me because I help with my grandkids. I worry about accidents. You know the typical...stop running in the house, stop jumping on the bed, hold my hand crossing the parking lot, don't put that in your mouth, sit on the chair right or you'll get hurt. Safety is a big deal when raising kids. Thankfully,
no cruises for me. I'd be a nervous wreck and everyone would be annoyed.
I'd also be interested, though, if he had been reckless in the past...

We have no idea whether he ever acted recklessly with his grandchildren, but we do know - thanks to court records - that he was repeatedly caught and fined for not wearing his car seatbelt and speeding. Disobeying traffic laws, not just once but repeatedly, definitely shows a penchant for recklessness, since those laws are in place for safety reasons. Somebody (Dr. Phil?) once said that "the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior".

 

[Montrealaise]

There is a good photo of the table and chairs area and railing/windows with an imposed graphic of Chloe looking out of the bottom windows (like she should have been doing) on the RC blog site, Freedom of The Seas Fatality on page 14. It's the first photo I've seen which clearly depicts the area for me. If anyone wants to copy and paste it here for the others if they think it's worthwhile, I don't know how to do it on a tablet.

Here you go:

 

[Aydrianna523]

It is NOT a children's play area, even though the family's lawyer keeps calling it that (which I think is deliberately misleading). It's an adult lounge - I've seen photographs of the area, and you can see tables and chairs and people having cocktails. Saying that it's a children's play area implies that children can access the windows, but those windows are about five feet off the ground, way above any toddler's head. The only way a child can reach a window is if an adult lifts her up and over the safety railing.
As for the accidents on cruises - from what I've read, they're almost always the result of someone doing something really stupid, like sitting on a railing in order to get a selfie.

Gotcha. It's sinking into my brain.
Question. Is this basically the norm for cruise ships, as far as the windows go?
And it seems to be the first accident of a baby/child getting dropped out of a window... so that sounds pretty certain the grandfather messed up royally!!!

 

[Kakidoll]

Again, as someone who cruises VERY frequently, there is NO WAY to fall overboard without trying, being stupid, or someone pushes you. I've seen so much stupidity on cruises. Teens that crawl from one balcony to another, parents letting kids stand ON TABLES by the railing so they can hold their drink and not their kid...... to letting 5yr olds swim in the big pool with siblings and NOT watch them at all. I've been on ships that had a child drown, a man go overboard, mutliple medical issues, and 2 heart attacks. A ship is only as safe as the person with common sense allows it to be. Would you walk across a highway without looking either way? If so, you deserve to get hit by a car. Would you jump off a ledge not knowing how far you'd fall? Then you deserve what happens. Alcohol is a factor in the ADULTS, STUPIDITY and bad parenting is an issue with the teens that want to defy the rules and be a big shot. While i have/HAD sympathy for the parents, once the moneygrabbing started... i lost any respect for them i would have had. People look at these companies as moneymakers... Stub a toe, i'm suing you. Break a fingernail on a balcony door, i'm suing. Grandpa should have MANNED up. Said the truth, Taken responsibility and NONE of this would be happening, IMO. Had he JUST owned it, i don't think PR would have gone after him at all. HE AND the family, put him in this situation with the arrest. JMO/IMO

 

[10ofRods]

Gotcha. It's sinking into my brain.
Question. Is this basically the norm for cruiser ships, as far as the windows go?
And it seems to be the first accident of a baby/child getting dropped out of a window... so that sounds pretty certain the grandfather messed up royally!!!

I believe it is the norm. Windows that open are placed higher, for safety reasons. Then, a rail is placed in front of the window to keep adults from leaning over into the opening or easily going through the open window. It's exactly the system that is used for balconies, canyons and other high places. Handrails are there so that people can grasp them (some people experience vertigo when they see that they are up high) and so that people can have a clear boundary of where they are to stand.

This is equivalent to the people who sit their kids on guardrail tops and guard walls at Grand Canyon (or other high places). Most people wouldn't hold a toddler in their arms right at the unguarded edge of Grand Canyon, and most people do not sit their kids atop Grand Canyon guard rails, either (but some do and some allow their children to play on the guard rails and guard walls). It is so nervewracking to watch. I watched a family allow their 5 year to walk atop the low barrier (made of rocks) on Bright Angel Trail. The drop beyond was only about 100 feet, and of course, at GC, that looks like a "short" drop. It would likely be fatal.

Many of my (college) students believe that it is easy to survive a 20-30 foot fall (so they think it's fun to dive off second or third story balconies or windows into swimming pools). In fact, even a 5-6 foot fall head first onto a hard surface can be fatal and if it is not fatal, it can result in very severe injuries. We live in a culture where people post youtubes of very risky (and often painful) behaviors and it's intended to be humorous. Everything is fun, until it's not.

I do think that Anello wanted to be the "fun grandparent" and loved to pick up Chloe and hold her such that her head was at least as high as his (whereas, there's much to be said for adults lowering themselves to the toddler's level, because risk assessment takes on new meanings when we look at the world from 3 feet off the ground). Had Anello done this (knelt while Chloe explored the window area from the safety of the floor), he'd have looked up and seen that the window was open. Even the slowest or most distracted of minds would surely have seen that the lower windows don't open for a reason and that the handrail exists for a reason.

I know it's harder for bigger, older people to squat or kneel easily (but we see him do it in that picture with the dog) and it should be ingrained in any child-carer that a kid's world is meant to be explored from the POV of a kid. That's the very basic premise of childproofing (you go into a new hotel room, you look at the outlets from the POV of the baby/toddler, you look at power cords and window blind cords from the child's POV, you look at how balconies are structured and how windows open from a kid's POV. I believe it's reasonable to expect adult carers to do this.

But people on vacation, in particular, tend to abandon common sense. The child who fell at Grand Canyon was being "watched" by her parents (and had just been sternly told not to go near the edge). But she was a kid, and her reaction was to run right toward the edge. In that case, the parents should have been in physical control of their 4 year old (holding hands or using a stroller), not merely using verbal commands. My second child was such a stroller escape artist that GC was off the table and in fact, I worried when she went there as an adult (she's still distractible, but as she had her own child with her, lo and behold, she was super cautious).

 

[10ofRods]

DBM (double post issue)

 

[TristanP]

Apparently so is denial.

 

[jeena]

If step-Grandpa gets 3 years in the slammer, who supports Grandma?

 

[katydid23]

I would like to think I would forgive him. Blaming someone isn’t going to bring um back. Forgiveness is an important part of healing. Moo

I would forgive him too...<<< While he was in prison, for criminal neglect resulting in manslaughter.

 

[katydid23]

If step-Grandpa gets 3 years in the slammer, who supports Grandma?

Maybe she works? Maybe her children will help her? Maybe she moves in with family for a couple of years while he is away?

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

If step-Grandpa gets 3 years in the slammer, who supports Grandma?

Gee, I don't know. Maybe she can divorce him and find herself a responsible, sensible husband who tells the truth. JMOO. Or, ummmm, maybe some of the donations the family has received will be funneled off her way. Who knows, and who cares? I don't.

 

[they'll get you]

Cruise: Grandfather charged after accidentally dropping toddler to her death from ship

Research from Cruise Lines International Association (CLIA) has found that accidentally falling overboard is relatively unlikely.

The association said that after investigations were launched the actions of the passenger were deemed either “intentional or reckless”.

Furthermore, deaths onboard cruise liners are extremely low; just one in 6.25 million

Cruise: Grandfather charged after accidentally dropping toddler to her death from ship

 

[LietKynes]

If step-Grandpa gets 3 years in the slammer, who supports Grandma?

Her adult children.
Both Kimberly Schultz and Alan Wiegand are not hurting for money.
According to a poster in the first thread.
Although it wouldn't be a surprise if they start yet another G. -F- M. or Fun dly for her 'support'.
It's doubtful that Chloe's parents are worried about him surviving in a 3 year sentence; he's 51 and not frail.
It's more likely that in that time he may "talk".
That could be catastrophic.

 

[mickey2942]

I have been doing some research on prison in Puerto Rico, definitely not where I would want to go to prison.

 

[LietKynes]

I would like to think I would forgive him. Blaming someone isn’t going to bring um back. Forgiveness is an important part of healing. Moo

bbm

No, it won't bring Chloe back.
But they would be absolutely right to blame him; and it's damned weird that they are not.
This wasn't the cruise line's fault.

Forgiveness is important.
But forgiveness doesn't mean a pardon for someone's negligent or outright criminal act.
A person can be forgiven yet still needs to face responsibility for their act !