IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #3

[they'll get you]

Whatsnext, I think that is likely, because it was reported that he cried out, "I just dropped my child," NOT "my child just fell out!"

OMG imagine!

If I was there I would've gone over to help and automatically looked out to see if she was on a ledge but unfortunately see the aftermath. So many people suffered that day and who'd need psychological help to the day they die.
Who could continue on that cruise after experiencing that horrific event.

 

[oviedo]

OMG imagine!

If I was there I would've gone over to help and automatically looked out to see if she was on a ledge but unfortunately see the aftermath. So many people suffered that day and who'd need psychological help to the day they die.
Who could continue on that cruise after experiencing that horrific event.

My guess is there may have been those that saw him holding her over the rail...I think the video will show the whole story IMO

 

[mickey2942]

Thanks, This is my actual line of work, yes there are secondary causes of early cataract development. I can talk all day long about phacoemulsification, posterior capsulotomy, A-scans, IOL measurements and which methodology results in optimal outcome.

eta: I just rechecked my post and I did preface my comment with “generally”. Anyway,

and of course I’m not verified so there’s that...

The point I tried and failed to make was that his attorney has not mentioned him having been diagnosed with nuclear sclerotic/cortical cataract or that he was suffering from any type of temporary or chronic visual impairment.

Sorry, - imma going to go sit in a corner now

And even if he was diagnosed with any type of vision loss, that has absolutely no connection to placing a child on a guard railing.

My husband and I were talking about something similar, what is a person's primary impediment to functioning? If someone can't read a medication bottle, that is a vision problem. If that same person cannot read a medication bottle and forgets to take their medications, vision loss is not their primary impediment to functioning.

So, even if SA was totally blind, that doesn't justify placing a child on a railing. INMO, vision is not the problem here...and since the entire discussion is completely conjured, since SA has never mentioned a visual impairment, it is a moot point.

 

[mickey2942]

Thanks, This is my actual line of work, yes there are secondary causes of early cataract development. I can talk all day long about phacoemulsification, posterior capsulotomy, A-scans, IOL measurements and which methodology results in optimal outcome.

eta: I just rechecked my post and I did preface my comment with “generally”. Anyway,

and of course I’m not verified so there’s that...

The point I tried and failed to make was that his attorney has not mentioned him having been diagnosed with nuclear sclerotic/cortical cataract or that he was suffering from any type of temporary or chronic visual impairment.

Sorry, - imma going to go sit in a corner now

And even if he was diagnosed with any type of vision loss, that has absolutely no connection to placing a child on a guard railing.

My husband and I were talking about something similar, what is a person's primary impediment to functioning? If someone can't read a medication bottle, that is a vision problem. If that same person cannot read a medication bottle and forgets to take their medications, vision loss is not their primary impediment to functioning.

So, even if SA was totally blind, that doesn't justify placing a child on a railing. INMO, vision is not the problem here...and since the entire discussion is completely conjured, since SA has never mentioned a visual impairment, it is a moot point.

 

[proctorelites]

My earlier post states how I feel abt all this. But this picture could present concern about grandpa's situational awareness. The pic makes it look like there will be boxwood shrubs right outside those windows, similar to home. I can see how one may not realise just how far up they are or easily be distratcted from their height, it isn't their normal routine & the point of the cruise is to relax. I can see how one just forgets their height and exactly where that window will lead. It's hard to accept one so relaxed as to forget the safety of their toddler.

My 1st cruise, I had no idea just how large the ship was until we set sail and waived goodbye from the deck. I got sick & actually had to avoid the idea of being so far from the ground etc. Its hard to articulate. I can understand people vacillating on how this happened.

 

[neesaki]

Strange choice of words, IMHO...

As is this whole situation. SMH

 

[book-thinker]

Yikes indeed! Certainly it would boil down to his particular level of severity but as a rule, people with color deficiencies have been encouraged to steer away from electrical occupations- particularly lineman work, for obvious reasons.

A mistake, in most cases would just be mismatched socks, his though could potentially be lethal. I have had a few patients over the years who adapted well, but in those cases they all depended on labeled wires. (A few now have depended on Award-Winning EnChroma® Color Blind Glasseswith the labeling)

in the case of SA, (generally speaking) and others with color vision defects, they should still be capable of ascertaining the difference between this particular open window and the adjoining closed tinted windows. Why? Look at the images and you’ll notice the scattered glare that clearly bounces off the closed windows due to the refractive property of glass. (The speed of light changes which causes the scatter halos.) It’s a clue we all pick up on. ( If we are mindful and take even a second to observe our surroundings. You know prior to leaning out a high window....)

fun fact: up until modern history there was no word for the color blue. And there is a tribe in Africa that still doesn’t have a name for the color blue - and they cannot see it. - Not for pathological reason but simply cultural. The sky is simply the sky.

Medstudies thank you for your medical expertise.

If I'm understanding correctly, the step-grandfather should've known the difference between a closed window and
a open window. You refer to people with color blindness as someone with a color vision defects. People with color deficiencies can still distinguish by the scattered glare. Here's San Juan's weather:
San Juan's weather was partly cloudy at around 5pm. The average hourly wind speed in San Juan on July 7 was 12.4 miles per hour.

He'll have a difficult time convincing a jury his color blindness was a contributing factor in the death of Chloe.

The residents in San Juan are very family-oriented and I believe the people of San Juan see this as negligent
homicide. And a jury of his peers will convict to the full extent of the law. JMO

 

[IceIce9]

Does anyone know who was Chloe's babysitter while mom was at work?
Did she go to day care or was there a live-in sitter....or grandparents?

"Each morning, Chloe pretended to do her makeup while her mother got ready for work".
View Chloe Wiegand's Obituary on kpcnews.com and share memories

Chloe lived in Granger, and Grandpa lived in Valpo. I doubt if he was the daily babysitter due to the distance between the two cities.

 

[katydid23]

Chloe’s grandfather was responsible for her care. Did he act with negligence, recklessness, or intent?

It was one of the three. Will it be up to a jury to view the video and decide?

I think it was negligence AND recklessness.

I don't think he had any malicious intent. Other than his own arrogance , selfishness and obstinance.

 

[IceIce9]

My guess is there may have been those that saw him holding her over the rail...I think the video will show the whole story IMO

I agree. Remember the first reports that came out (and were linked on the first thread that disappeared?)

The video with the crew member imitating the way grandpa held Chloe outside the window, moving his arms up and down? An “act of games” in a different report.

I don’t think he would have been charged unless there was clear evidence of negligence or recklessness.

 

[katydid23]

Freedom of the Seas Fatality?
This picture shows me how easily she could have ended up out that window if he was holding on with only one arm, with her on the rail or window ledge...

 

[katydid23]

My earlier post states how I feel abt all this. But this picture could present concern about grandpa's situational awareness. The pic makes it look like there will be boxwood shrubs right outside those windows, similar to home. I can see how one may not realise just how far up they are or easily be distratcted from their height, it isn't their normal routine & the point of the cruise is to relax. I can see how one just forgets their height and exactly where that window will lead. It's hard to accept one so relaxed as to forget the safety of their toddler.

My 1st cruise, I had no idea just how large the ship was until we set sail and waived goodbye from the deck. I got sick & actually had to avoid the idea of being so far from the ground etc. Its hard to articulate. I can understand people vacillating on how this happened.

But grandpa looked out that window and down below, BEFORE picking her up and putting her on the guard rail. So he knew he was very high above the pavement below.

Even if he wasn't on the 11th floor, but was on the 6th or 2nd or even 1st, she still could have died or been very severely injured if she fell through the open window.

 

[they'll get you]

I doubt it would help if RC simply agreed to weld the windows shut.

I'm thinking RC lawyers could be negotiating now for the best outcome for the family and the cruise line, which could be to settle and pay without blame to make the case go away, I guess we'll see.
If GF climbed a ladder I'm sure RC would be blamed.

I'm hearing a sigh of relief from all others ships that it didn't happen to them.

• 
  

 

[sl222]

Freedom of the Seas Fatality?
This picture shows me how easily she could have ended up out that window if he was holding on with only one arm, with her on the rail or window ledge...

Thanks for sharing this pic again. In that CBS interview, he said he was holding her with one hand, and reaching out for the glass with the other one. ???? This makes no sense.

Also referring to earlier discussion, he first looked out the window for 5 to 8 seconds before lifting Chloe up, then was at the window a total of 33 seconds, so he was aware of how high up they were but needless to say a toddler perched at a window on any floor is a danger. It's not a hockey rink with special glass. The more I think about it the more they are losing their case. Why so many explanations, why not just keep quiet until the trial; that is the only wise thing to do. Every time they bring it up a million more people learn the story who missed it the first time. When someone does something wrong, in time, you credit them with some dignity if they just keep their heads down and do the best they can going forward. (speaking in generalities)

If I stood a toddler on a handrail in a public place, or sat her on one, I would already be aware that this in itself was a screwup and inappropriate. Both for the child, for the way it looks as the caregiver, and for the respect of the property I was leaning a child's weight on and risking a malfunction. You don't know it the rail is loose or whatever. You don't take chances like that with children. Like I said it looks like a ballet barre or a hand rail along a hospital wall or a stairway (and it's not even as large as a stair rail), I would never stand or sit a child on such a thing. Nor would anyone here, I am sure!

 

[Midwestmom2019]

Whatsnext, I think that is likely, because it was reported that he cried out, "I just dropped my child," NOT "my child just fell out!"

That excited utterance exception to hearsay rules. Admissible in court bc generally believed that an unsolicited outcry at the time of the event is truthful. I guess bc the person blurting out did not have time to concoct I thought there was glass, I’m color blind. Does he have night vision issues? Oooops. Sorry. Not used as an excuse yet. Oh, that’s right. It was during the day. So maybe he should say the sun hit me right in my eyeballs and burned the retinas. I still can’t see today.
Puhleez. What a whiny baby. He makes me sick. No b a l l s. None.

Afraid of going to prison.
You know, in some prisons, child molesters get molested, tortured, murdered. Jail house justice.
Maybe he’s afraid for himself. Makes me even more sick.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

I think it was negligence AND recklessness.

I don't think he had any malicious intent. Other than his own arrogance , selfishness and obstinance.

I think he may have had malicious intent in the moral sense rather than in the criminal sense. I think he knew the window was open and was trying to scare her but not actually harm her. By his account he had Chloe standing on the rail and then leaned forward, which must of totally freaked Chloe out so he switched to having her sit and doing the same thing. His actions of rocking back and forth don't make sense for banging on a window. He lied about Chloe asking to be picked up and Chloe reaching to bang the window, so the next shoe to drop if he'd admit to it was the 'game' he was playing was 'Scare Chloe' by pretending to push her out the window then pulling back.

 

[neesaki]

I think he may have had malicious intent in the moral sense rather than in the criminal sense. I think he knew the window was open and was trying to scare her but not actually harm her. By his account he had Chloe standing on the rail and then leaned forward, which must of totally freaked Chloe out so he switched to having her sit and doing the same thing. His actions of rocking back and forth don't make sense for banging on a window. He lied about Chloe asking to be picked up and Chloe reaching to bang the window, so the next shoe to drop if he'd admit to it was the 'game' he was playing was 'Scare Chloe' by pretending to push her out the window then pulling back.

I believe it was a “scare Chloe” game too.

 

[jeena]

I think he may have had malicious intent in the moral sense rather than in the criminal sense. I think he knew the window was open and was trying to scare her but not actually harm her. By his account he had Chloe standing on the rail and then
leaned forward, which must of totally freaked Chloe out so he switched to having her sit and doing the same thing. His actions of rocking back and forth don't make sense for banging on a window. He lied about Chloe asking to be picked up and Chloe reaching to bang the window, so the next shoe to drop if he'd admit to it was the 'game' he was playing was 'Scare Chloe' by pretending to push her out the window then pulling back.

I think he may have had malicious intent in the moral sense rather than in the criminal sense. I think he knew the window was open and was trying to scare her but not actually harm her. By his account he had Chloe standing on the rail and then leaned forward, which must of totally freaked Chloe out so he switched to having her sit and doing the same thing. His actions of rocking back and forth don't make sense for banging on a window. He lied about Chloe asking to be picked up and Chloe reaching to bang the window, so the next shoe to drop if he'd admit to it was the 'game' he was playing was 'Scare Chloe' by pretending to push her out the window then pulling back.

It was reported that Chloe was wearing swim shoes, cheap brands have no support and slippery bottoms because the rubber doesn't grab well. Was Chloe unstable from her swim shoes while standing on the railing so SA seated her instead? I still can't wrap my head around SA doing something so dangerous as standing her on the railing, glass or no glass. Why did SA say he needed signage by RC to know it wasn't safe to stand a toddler on the railing? Sounds fishy.

 

[justice4allnow]

It was reported that Chloe was wearing swim shoes, cheap brands have no support and slippery bottoms because the rubber doesn't grab well. Was Chloe unstable from her swim shoes while standing on the railing so SA seated her instead? I still can't wrap my head around SA doing something so dangerous as standing her on the railing, glass or no glass. Why did SA say he needed signage by RC to know it wasn't safe to stand a toddler on the railing? Sounds fishy.

And it was so unsettling when Winkleman was asked by the CBS reporter why Sam was leaning forward with Chloe and Winkleman's reply was that it was obvious why they were leaning forward, it was to get a better view. Gone was any pretense from the lawyer that Chloe wanted to bang on the glass!

 

[oviedo]

My earlier post states how I feel abt all this. But this picture could present concern about grandpa's situational awareness. The pic makes it look like there will be boxwood shrubs right outside those windows, similar to home. I can see how one may not realise just how far up they are or easily be distratcted from their height, it isn't their normal routine & the point of the cruise is to relax. I can see how one just forgets their height and exactly where that window will lead. It's hard to accept one so relaxed as to forget the safety of their toddler.

My 1st cruise, I had no idea just how large the ship was until we set sail and waived goodbye from the deck. I got sick & actually had to avoid the idea of being so far from the ground etc. Its hard to articulate. I can understand people vacillating on how this happened.

I see the point except this: I’ve seen the ships as I board - I see how tall they are- I just do not believe he didn’t realize in leaning over twice how high he was and the danger he could be putting the baby in - I agree with others it may be his arrogance
JMO