IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #3

[SouthAussie]

Take note that in negligence claims a defendant is held liable for defects regardless of whether the company or business acted negligently. It comes down to whether the plaintiff can show there was a failure to provide adequate warnings of the defect (i.e., open window).

I have not seen one photo posted on this thread of an open window on the ship where I personally can't distinguish that the window is open but that's not how negligence claims work.

Not that I think there was negligence on the part of RCCL -- I simply said that I would not be surprised to read if a court agreed with a claimant that showed in court they could not differentiate between open/closed windows because they did not have adequate warning the window was open. (I think I used an example of a colored [red] window frame as a warning). It's equally possible that a court would agree a tinted window is an adequate warning.

MOO

However, ignoring the safety rail is negligent. And I think that is what the prosecutor is contending "negligently exposed the child to the abyss through a window on the 11th floor".

The guest conduct policy clearly states ....

Unsafe Behavior
Sitting, standing, lying or climbing on, over or across any exterior or interior railings or other protective barriers, or tampering with ship’s equipment, facilities or systems designed for guest safety is not permitted. Guests may not enter or access any area that is restricted and for the use of crew members. Any other unsafe behavior, including failure to follow security instructions, is not permitted.
https://www.royalcaribbean.com/content/dam/royal/resources/pdf/guest-conduct-policy.pdf

If that policy has been given to all of the guests, I think that may have some bearing on a court's decision-making process.
And if SA didn't bother to read the policy ... well ... you can bring a horse to the water, but you can't make him drink.

 

[Aydrianna523]

Remember, grandpa is not an elderly person. He’s only 51.

Gotcha. But I know younger people than me who have health problems.
I worked in retail and some of the younger people had more trouble than me walking for hours a day.
I know. I'm looking to cut him a break...
Maybe I shouldn't. I'll stay tuned.

 

[mickey2942]

A Queensland mother on board the cruise ship claimed passengers were not warned of "how really dangerous" it was to visit the volcano.
Lisa Lou wrote on Facebook that she was "stranded" on the cruise liner while it was docked off White Island.
"I'm mad because these poor people booked the shore excursion… nowhere does it say how really dangerous this shore excursion is," she said.
"I'm angry that the tour still went ahead even though the risk level was at the highest it could get and I'm angry that there are fellow Royal Caribbean cruisers who's family won't be coming back on board



Thank you gitana1 you are GOLD here.

Interesting. I wondered why people would want to visit an island with an active volcano. It seems that the phrase "personal responsibility" for all actions is lost on this generation.

And perhaps, SA as well. We don't live in a "nanny state" with rules and regulations for any activity. People decide what they want to do....visit an active Volcano? Go for it, but it was their own choice.

 

[LietKynes]

Thank you for posting this video.
I do have a few more questions that I wish one of the reporters would ask him:
1)Had you been drinking? Had you had any alcohol at all since boarding the ship? How about the night before or prior to boarding the ship?
2) Were you taking any medication? Including over the counter medication?
3) Why did you refuse the breathalyzer test? If because of possible inaccurate results, why not a blood test?
4) Where were Chloe's parents? Did they ask you to watch Chloe or did you just notice she was wandering off and you followed her? (reporters said she was toddling towards the window and SA followed her)
5) Were you playing a game with her? Did you often or ever play games to "scare" her for fun?
6) Did you at anytime hold her outside the window?
7) Why has your story changed so many times?
8) Who hired the lawyer, Mr. Winkleman? Did he contact the family or did the family find him?
9) Do you smoke cigarettes? If so, were you smoking at the time Chloe fell? If you do smoke, but were not smoking at the time, when was your last cigarette?
10) Had you eaten that day? What and when?
11) How many hours of sleep did you get the night before?
12) Do you regularly wear your seatbelt? Why do you have so many seat belt tickets?
13) Do you think your color blindness played a part in this tragedy?
14) What's the deal with the Christmas Light videos?
OK maybe not the last question, but it's my fantasy interview, the questions I would really like answers to from HIM, not his lawyer or the other lawyer or the family, just him, without being coached.
MOO

bbm
Indeed.
The lawyer says he's a teetotaler.
Imo , Winkleman has no idea, but it sounded good for the upcoming lawsuit.

Saving this great post.

I'd referenced it before but wanted this bumped.

Lol at #14.

 

[Montrealaise]

Take note that in negligence claims a defendant is held liable for defects regardless of whether the company or business acted negligently. It comes down to whether the plaintiff can show there was a failure to provide adequate warnings of the defect (i.e., open window).

I have not seen one photo posted on this thread of an open window on the ship where I personally can't distinguish that the window is open but that's not how negligence claims work.

Not that I think there was negligence on the part of RCCL -- I simply said that I would not be surprised to read if a court agreed with a claimant that showed in court they could not differentiate between open/closed windows because they did not have adequate warning the window was open. (I think I used an example of a colored [red] window frame as a warning). It's equally possible that a court would agree a tinted window is an adequate warning.

MOO

There was also the safety railing in front of the windows, clearly intended to keep passengers from getting too close, whether or not the windows were closed. Or, as another poster asked, did SA think the safety railing was put there for decorative purposes?
In any event, if the video shows that SA stuck his head out the window, the arguments about whether or not he knew it was open are all moot.

 

[Seattle1]

There was also the safety railing in front of the windows, clearly intended to keep passengers from getting too close, whether or not the windows were closed. Or, as another poster asked, did SA think the safety railing was put there for decorative purposes?
In any event, if the video shows that SA stuck his head out the window, the arguments about whether or not he knew it was open are all moot.

I believe the San Juan authorities will prevail in their negligent homicide claim against the grandfather. He acted recklessly when he raised the child to the window beyond the railing. He was not at a hockey arena (where spectators bang on the glass) but on a cruise ship.

Just the same, it wouldn't surprise me if the parents are awarded damages for reasons I've already stated. (To my knowledge, there is no lawsuit -- only their stated intent to file). MOO

ETA: Any future civil claims by the parents are independent of the criminal charges SA is already facing.

 

[al66pine]

@Safeguard Like you said - Hmmm.
I doubt Winkleman ever requested cruiseline release that footage to the public.
Much more likely, imo, Winkleman requested cruiseline provide footage to him.

Altho Winkleman said Something on vid must have led PR to file charges vs G'pa,
he countered that ~ a week ago(?), by showing (some of?) the vid to some reporters.
Seems part of his unspoken pitch is --
See, here's the vid, nothing crim about G'pa's actions. Blame for death is solely cruiseline's.
jmo

Family of cruise ship death toddler "really not doing well" as grandfather makes first court appearance S/bbm....

"speaking to CBS, the family's attorney Michael Winkleman said ....
"Surveillance footage .... Despite continuous requests from the family and Winkleman, Royal Caribbean has not released the footage to the public.
"You have to assume that it shows something that really led the Puerto Rican authorities to believe there was criminal offense, so clearly there's something in that video," said Winkleman, who is not representing Anello."
So... This the first I am hearing that the family wants the video released to the public... Hmmm...

@Safeguard ^ some sbm. Article date 11/21/19

 

[LietKynes]

@Safeguard Like you said - Hmmm.
I doubt Winkleman ever requested cruiseline release that footage to the public.
Much more likely, imo, Winkleman requested cruiseline provide footage to him.

Altho Winkleman said Something on vid must have led PR to file charges vs G'pa,
he countered that ~ a week ago(?), by showing (some of?) the vid to some reporters.
Seems part of his unspoken pitch is --
See, here's the vid, nothing crim about G'pa's actions. Blame for death is solely cruiseline's.
jmo

@Safeguard ^ some sbm. Article date 11/21/19

Jumping off this post... sounds like Winkleman may not have seen the video --or at least in its' entirety ??
He likes to talk, so if he knew what the vid. showed, wouldn't he be doing some 'blabbing' ?
Or he's just doing his 'spin' talk.
He would know how to choose his words.

 

[al66pine]

Any Drinking?

....is it possible that GP and other adults had a drink or two ....?
The staff or first responders should have caught it if Grandpa was inebriated ....

@1&2&3 bbm sbm Good point.
IIRC one of the MSM articles said ((paraphrasing) G'pa fell to his knees, said blah, blah. He was later led from the deck by ____.
Was it cruiseline employees, LEOs, EMTs. If so, were signs of drinking noted in their reports?
Led him away? Did they escort, like just show the way? Did they have to physically support him?

If other family (other G'parents), did cruiseline employees, LEOs or EMTs interview them on the spot??

 

[Montrealaise]

I believe the San Juan authorities will prevail in their negligent homicide claim against the grandfather. He acted recklessly when he raised the child to the window beyond the railing. He was not at a hockey arena (where spectators bang on the glass) but on a cruise ship.

Just the same, it wouldn't surprise me if the parents are awarded damages for reasons I've already stated. (To my knowledge, there is no lawsuit -- only their stated intent to file). MOO

ETA: Any future civil claims by the parents are independent of the criminal charges SA is already facing.

I agree that the PR prosecutors will prevail in the criminal proceeding - SA placed the baby in a position where she was able to fall out of an 11th floor window, a window she could never have reached on her own. If I were SA's criminal defense attorney, I would try to persuade him to reach a plea bargain - a guilty plea, maybe to a lesser charge, in return for a lighter sentence or perhaps just probation.
However, if SA is found guilty or pleads guilty and the parents still persist in seeking damages from the cruise line, it will make them look either wildly delusional or greedy. Maybe you're right and they will be awarded damages, especially if they get a jury which is sympathetic to their loss and feels they should be compensated, but I feel that the prevailing public sentiment will be that they sought to make money off their daughter's death.

 

[justice4allnow]

I haven't read all of the posts, so forgive me if this has already been discussed. But I just saw today that $5795 has been donated so far to a travel and legal defense fund for Sam Anello on FundRazr. It's possible that Sam will not have to pay for his defense, because of the notoriety the case will bring to his attorney-that's what I was told happened with Casey Anthony, for instance, free representation. We've already discussed other compensation received, including Royal Caribbean paying for the family's hotel rooms in PR and for their return flights home, taxpayers funding a police escort for the family from the airport to their home, insurance paying out for Chloe's loss, no one knowing for certain that amount. And we talked about the Wiegand's friends and business associates also having donated $21,810 on Fundly to the family for final expenses and travel, with any unused funds to go to an education fund for 'other siblings.' Not to mention the lawsuit. It's all so unseemly, the monetizing of this baby's death...

 

[Seattle1]

However, if SA is found guilty or pleads guilty and the parents still persist in seeking damages from the cruise line, it will make them look either wildly delusional or greedy. Maybe you're right and they will be awarded damages, especially if they get a jury which is sympathetic to their loss and feels they should be compensated, but I feel that the prevailing public sentiment will be that they sought to make money off their daughter's death.

^^sbm

Mom is a prosecutor and understands the law. Also, a civil action not held to the same standard as a criminal action.

IMO, public sentiment went out the window when maritime lawyer Michael Winkleman started blasting within 72 hours of child's death! I've not seen that sentiment change but that's just me. MOO

 

[LietKynes]

I haven't read all of the posts, so forgive me if this has already been discussed. But I just saw today that $5795 has been donated so far to a travel and legal defense fund for Sam Anello on FundRazr. It's possible that Sam will not have to pay for his defense, because of the notoriety the case will bring to his attorney-that's what I was told happened with Casey Anthony, for instance, free representation. We've already discussed other compensation received, including Royal Caribbean paying for the family's hotel rooms in PR and for their return flights home, taxpayers funding a police escort for the family from the airport to their home, insurance paying out for Chloe's loss, no one knowing for certain that amount. And we talked about the Wiegand's friends and business associates also having donated $21,810 on Fundly to the family for final expenses and travel, with any unused funds to go to an education fund for 'other siblings.' Not to mention the lawsuit. It's all so unseemly, the monetizing of this baby's death...

bbm

Why did they need a police escort ?
Are they afraid of someone ?
Do they owe money to a person or company and haven't paid them ?
Why did the taxpayers have to fund this ?
So many questions.

As far as the ins. amount on Chloe's life, one would assume the life insurance co. will not pay if they suspect there is something amiss about the manner of her death ?
Wouldn't the grandpa's charges and upcoming trial give the ins. co. pause ?

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

I haven't read all of the posts, so forgive me if this has already been discussed. But I just saw today that $5795 has been donated so far to a travel and legal defense fund for Sam Anello on FundRazr. It's possible that Sam will not have to pay for his defense, because of the notoriety the case will bring to his attorney-that's what I was told happened with Casey Anthony, for instance, free representation. We've already discussed other compensation received, including Royal Caribbean paying for the family's hotel rooms in PR and for their return flights home, taxpayers funding a police escort for the family from the airport to their home, insurance paying out for Chloe's loss, no one knowing for certain that amount. And we talked about the Wiegand's friends and business associates also having donated $21,810 on Fundly to the family for final expenses and travel, with any unused funds to go to an education fund for 'other siblings.' Not to mention the lawsuit. It's all so unseemly, the monetizing of this baby's death...

That Fund..razr inaccurately states the "accident" occurred in a children's play area. That's just disgusting to LIE like that! MOO

 

[Seattle1]

Grandfather charged in toddler's cruise ship death: 'They can't do anything worse to me'

Nov 21, 2019

Winkleman said that window should have been closed securely and he sees grounds for the family to file a civil lawsuit against Royal Caribbean Cruises. He said the family is still seeking surveillance video from the area of the ship where Chloe fell to her death.

CBS News travel editor Peter Greenberg says investigators will quickly be able to determine what happened on this ship, and that there should be no open windows in children's play areas.

"Every modern large cruise ship has at least 900 separate digital cameras that are recording 24/7," Greenberg said. "Somebody goes over the side, they are going to see it and they are going to know where it happened and they're going to know when it happened." bbm

Police in Puerto Rico declined to comment Tuesday on Winkleman's account of the events leading up to the child's fatal fall.

Police had no immediate comment Wednesday on their investigation into the girl's death.

Winkleman said the girl's father, Alan Wiegand, who's a police officer in South Bend, Indiana, was interviewed Wednesday by police investigating his youngest child's death. He said that other relatives have also been interviewed by police on the U.S. island territory.

ETA: Wow -- it seems that RCCL has many cameras and likely the San Juan investigators had many videos to review prior to filing charges against SA.

 

[LietKynes]

Grandfather charged in toddler's cruise ship death: 'They can't do anything worse to me'

Nov 21, 2019

Winkleman said that window should have been closed securely and he sees grounds for the family to file a civil lawsuit against Royal Caribbean Cruises. He said the family is still seeking surveillance video from the area of the ship where Chloe fell to her death.

CBS News travel editor Peter Greenberg says investigators will quickly be able to determine what happened on this ship, and that there should be no open windows in children's play areas.

"Every modern large cruise ship has at least 900 separate digital cameras that are recording 24/7," Greenberg said. "Somebody goes over the side, they are going to see it and they are going to know where it happened and they're going to know when it happened." bbm

Police in Puerto Rico declined to comment Tuesday on Winkleman's account of the events leading up to the child's fatal fall.

Police had no immediate comment Wednesday on their investigation into the girl's death.

Winkleman said the girl's father, Alan Wiegand, who's a police officer in South Bend, Indiana, was interviewed Wednesday by police investigating his youngest child's death. He said that other relatives have also been interviewed by police on the U.S. island territory.

ETA: Wow -- it seems that RCCL has many cameras and likely the San Juan investigators had many videos to review prior to filing charges against SA.

pink bolding mine

Those windows are made to be opened, for the passenger's comfort ! Who doesn't want to feel the breeze on a cruise ?

Greenberg and Winkleman don't make the rules for RCCL.

Something about S.A's behavior in those videos made the investigators uneasy.

This may be way out there... but have Winkleman and/or Greenberg ever taken a cruise ?
Did they order the other passengers to close all windows, so a baby or toddler wasn't dropped overboard ?
Do they know how idiotic that sounds ?
They need to stop repeating their mantra.

 

[SouthAussie]

bbm

Why did they need a police escort ?
Are they afraid of someone ?
Do they owe money to a person or company and haven't paid them ?
Why did the taxpayers have to fund this ?
So many questions.

As far as the ins. amount on Chloe's life, one would assume the life insurance co. will not pay if they suspect there is something amiss about the manner of her death ?
Wouldn't the grandpa's charges and upcoming trial give the ins. co. pause ?

I wonder if grandpa and the family feared reprisal/heckling by people who may have heard what happened? Or even anticipated a media horde waiting at their home(s).

With the dad being a police officer, a police escort shouldn't have been too hard to achieve.

 

[katydid23]

Grandfather charged in toddler's cruise ship death: 'They can't do anything worse to me'

Nov 21, 2019

Winkleman said that window should have been closed securely and he sees grounds for the family to file a civil lawsuit against Royal Caribbean Cruises. He said the family is still seeking surveillance video from the area of the ship where Chloe fell to her death.

CBS News travel editor Peter Greenberg says investigators will quickly be able to determine what happened on this ship, and that there should be no open windows in children's play areas.

"Every modern large cruise ship has at least 900 separate digital cameras that are recording 24/7," Greenberg said. "Somebody goes over the side, they are going to see it and they are going to know where it happened and they're going to know when it happened." bbm

Police in Puerto Rico declined to comment Tuesday on Winkleman's account of the events leading up to the child's fatal fall.

Police had no immediate comment Wednesday on their investigation into the girl's death.

Winkleman said the girl's father, Alan Wiegand, who's a police officer in South Bend, Indiana, was interviewed Wednesday by police investigating his youngest child's death. He said that other relatives have also been interviewed by police on the U.S. island territory.

ETA: Wow -- it seems that RCCL has many cameras and likely the San Juan investigators had many videos to review prior to filing charges against SA.

ETA: "Wow -- it seems that RCCL has many cameras and likely the San Juan investigators had many videos to review prior to filing charges against SA."


Yes, there are reportedly several camera views of this tragedy.

That's why I don't think the parents will succeed in suing the cruise line. I think RCCL has a top notch legal team paid highly to protect the reputation of the company and to make the public feel safe booking vacations with them.

If they admit to any guilt or responsibility it will look very bad for them in this case. I think it is a matter of principle because if they agree that the window should have never been open, then what?

Are all the windows in all the ships going to be locked down 24/7? They would have to be if this family won a judgement against them for allowing the window to be open.

JMO IMO MOO

 

[Seattle1]

If they admit to any guilt or responsibility it will look very bad for them in this case. I think it is a matter of principle because if they agree that the window should have never been open, then what?

Are all the windows in all the ships going to be locked down 24/7? They would have to be if this family won a judgement against them for allowing the window to be open.

In a civil case by the parents, there would be no admission of guilt or responsibility by the cruise line. It would be up to the parents to show there was inadequate warning of a defect (i.e., open window). I believe the jest of the parent's claim is without the warning the window should be closed. However, as many here agree that the tinted windows and railing are adequate warning, so might a jury.

Not that long ago I recall successful suits against cruise lines where children fell to their death after crawling through the guard rails installed to protect passengers from falling. Soon there was plexiglass covering the railings.

As for the criminal negligence charge against SA, I believe he will be found guilty. I think the prosecutor's confidence in their case is well-founded.

MOO

 

[LietKynes]

In a civil case by the parents, there would be no admission of guilt or responsibility by the cruise line. It would be up to the parents to show there was inadequate warning of a defect (i.e., open window). I believe the jest of the parent's claim is without the warning the window should be closed. However, as many here agree that the tinted windows and railing are adequate warning, so might a jury.

Not that long ago I recall successful suits against cruise lines where children fell to their death after crawling through the guard rails installed to protect passengers from falling. Soon there was plexiglass covering the railings.

As for the criminal negligence charge against SA, I believe he will be found guilty. I think the prosecutor's confidence in their case is well-founded.

MOO

bbm

So it's possible that these past (successful) cases are well known ?