IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #5

[justbreathe]

Here’s a couple views of my recent trip on RCCLView attachment 222303View attachment 222304View attachment 222305its a long way down IMO

But of course it is a ship that sails into the middle of the ocean, not a hotel.

People who think a ship would follow the same codes as a building are ignorant and obviously didn’t read the safety info they received before getting on.

 

[Arkay]

It's a moot point now, and irrevocable, so I know it doesn't matter anymore, but there's something else that still just disturbs me.

Obviously Chloe did like to bang on the windows at her brother's hockey game. We have seen the picture. As others have mentioned, if she loved banging on windows she could have safely done it on the bottom window while standing, with SA wrapping his arms around her so she didn't run off into the crowds.

But she was a toddler. Everything would interest her for a minute or two or three. Most likely part of the attraction of banging on the windows at her brother's hockey game was to get his attention since she could see him on the ice. Also, it's very difficult to keep a toddler seated during an hours-long game. On a cruise ship, though, there are ten thousand things to do. She could have banged on anything, she could have gazed at anything. If Chloe, as SA stated, "asked" to bang on the glass, he could have wisely decided this wasn't the place for that and distracted her with absolutely anything else. He's the adult. He knows he's on a ship and not a hockey rink. Even while docked, a ship can rock somewhat. Maybe let her bang for three seconds on the bottom window and then move on to anything else.

It's like if she "asked" to go in the pool. He could have sat with her by the side, held her in his lap and let her feet touch the water. Instead, in this analogy, he tossed her alone into the deep end and let her drown.

Maybe he doted on her, liked to spoil her, didn't say "no." Here's where adulthood comes in. If she were excited by cars whizzing down a road, would he have let her run into traffic?

I'm just so angry, frustrated and disgusted because at the very beginning, my heart broke for him. His version of the story sounded like a split-second terrible accident. Now that we have seen the video I'm just so horrified that he still indicates that this is something Chloe wanted to do, and that he had no control over an awful, unforeseen tragic moment.

 

[Arkay]

ugh again I double-posted and had to delete. Will someone experienced on Websleuths please tell me how to delete a post? Other than just back spacing to erase? Thank you!

 

[oviedo]

Thank you for posting these pics. Was your head able to go partially beyond the window pane when you leaned over the railing?

yes - i did it long enough to take the pictures of the pier area - i think you must want to be a thrill seeker IMO to lean your body outside that window. And it isn't easy because the railing stops you depending on your height. It was a big effort for him to hold her outside the window IMO. It just isn't easy to do this especially against that heavy wind coming through the window.
JMO

 

[neesaki]

ugh again I double-posted and had to delete. Will someone experienced on Websleuths please tell me how to delete a post? Other than just back spacing to erase? Thank you!

Unfortunately there’s no delete feature. But no worries, it’s quite a frequent occurrence here.

 

[MaryG12]

It's a moot point now, and irrevocable, so I know it doesn't matter anymore, but there's something else that still just disturbs me.

Obviously Chloe did like to bang on the windows at her brother's hockey game. We have seen the picture. As others have mentioned, if she loved banging on windows she could have safely done it on the bottom window while standing, with SA wrapping his arms around her so she didn't run off into the crowds.

But she was a toddler. Everything would interest her for a minute or two or three. Most likely part of the attraction of banging on the windows at her brother's hockey game was to get his attention since she could see him on the ice. Also, it's very difficult to keep a toddler seated during an hours-long game. On a cruise ship, though, there are ten thousand things to do. She could have banged on anything, she could have gazed at anything. If Chloe, as SA stated, "asked" to bang on the glass, he could have wisely decided this wasn't the place for that and distracted her with absolutely anything else. He's the adult. He knows he's on a ship and not a hockey rink. Even while docked, a ship can rock somewhat. Maybe let her bang for three seconds on the bottom window and then move on to anything else.

It's like if she "asked" to go in the pool. He could have sat with her by the side, held her in his lap and let her feet touch the water. Instead, in this analogy, he tossed her alone into the deep end and let her drown.

Maybe he doted on her, liked to spoil her, didn't say "no." Here's where adulthood comes in. If she were excited by cars whizzing down a road, would he have let her run into traffic?

I'm just so angry, frustrated and disgusted because at the very beginning, my heart broke for him. His version of the story sounded like a split-second terrible accident. Now that we have seen the video I'm just so horrified that he still indicates that this is something Chloe wanted to do, and that he had no control over an awful, unforeseen tragic moment.

BBM

You are not the only one who thinks this way, Arkay.

SA is a major fail at making judgement calls when it comes to looking after children. I do not like having to say it, but it is what it is.

 

[katydid23]

This is the most victim-blaming language I have ever read. The baby was reckless and brought this on herself it seems.

Surprised Winkleman didn’t say that she yelled “I only blame myself and Royal Caribbean!” as she fell.

Ugh, I agree.

"Upon reaching this wall of glass, Chloe asked to be lifted up so that she could bang on the glass of the window, as Chloe frequently did at her older brother’s hockey games."

She' asked' to bang on the glass like she did at brother's hockey games? Pretty specific and long request from an 18 month old. I can believe she said 'UP... UP ' or something like that. But the rest is hyperbole.

And then they say:
'she leaned forward to bang on the glass'


So once again, it's her fault she fell...if only she hadn't leaned forward like that...


and:
'there was no glass in the frame in front of her, and she slipped from Mr. Anello’s arms, falling through the open pane...'

So SHE slipped, not like he dropped her or anything....



This defense team disgusts me, the way they are spinning this tragic story.

 

[Lilibet]

ugh again I double-posted and had to delete. Will someone experienced on Websleuths please tell me how to delete a post? Other than just back spacing to erase? Thank you!

It’s only possible to delete before posting. Otherwise backspacing to erase and typing “DBM” (deleted by me) is all we have. You’re doing fine!

 

[neesaki]

Ugh, I agree.

"Upon reaching this wall of glass, Chloe asked to be lifted up so that she could bang on the glass of the window, as Chloe frequently did at her older brother’s hockey games."

She' asked' to bang on the glass like she did at brother's hockey games? Pretty specific and long request from an 18 month old. I can believe she said 'UP... UP ' or something like that. But the rest is hyperbole.

And then they say:
'she leaned forward to bang on the glass'


So once again, it's her fault she fell...if only she hadn't leaned forward like that...


and:
'there was no glass in the frame in front of her, and she slipped from Mr. Anello’s arms, falling through the open pane...'

So SHE slipped, not like he dropped her or anything....



This defense team disgusts me, the way they are spinning this tragic story.

Maybe his mentor was Jose Baez. SMH

 

[MsMarple]

I have found the docket info but I don't know Spanish so I'm unable to try to get anywhere to actually get a copy of the filings (Google Translate only does so much lol). If anyone else is able to here's the docket screen shots as of this morning. Case number KVI2019M0003


View attachment 222312 View attachment 222313 View attachment 222314 View attachment 222315 View attachment 222316

It looks like there's a Status Conference set for Jan 27th (I know someone had mentioned it previously just restating in case people hadn't seen). I'm curious what will happen now that the tape has been leaked.

Thanks, @Kindred! Lots of information on the site. Repeating:
Link to SA's case: Portal de la Rama Judicial
Case # KVI2019M0003

Interesting, the Penal Code listed is from 2012. I can't find anything on the recent news (article published July 2012 updated December 2016)that @SouthAussie found about increasing the penalty. It may be there but my fractured Spanish can only take me so far .

http://www.ramajudicial.pr/leyes/CODIGO-PENAL-2012-CLASIFICACION-DELITOS-PENAS-APLICABLES.pdf

 

[JulieBEMT]

I read a few posts on other sites stating cruisers saw no changing stations on FOS. In fact, some cruise liners suggest changing diapers in the cabin only, and some posters with young children say going all the way back to the cabin to change diapers is too inconvenient, and they would only go on cruise lines that are "kid friendly" by offering changing stations, like Disney. Thanks for reporting your observations, very informative!

Because I don't have a baby, I've never looked for changing stations. I am, however handicapped. I never have a problem finding a restroom big enough to drive my scooter right in.

 

[oviedo]

I definitely remember seeing baby changing stations in the public areas - I think they are specific to certain parts of the ship though IMO.

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

That was the whole point of that post. Not that there is anything wrong with the photos, just that we have absolutely no evidence that SA was ever a lone caregiver to Chloe, and therefore never THOUGHT like a caregiver. Those two photos were used to show that he got to enjoy being in her company but clearly let everyone else worry about her safety, so possibly, for whatever possible reason, the family didn't typically leave her alone with SA.

BBM I'd just sort of like to know the reason, just out of curiosity because it makes no sense. Just being nosy. Just trying to find all the pieces of the puzzle. Just trying to get at the truth. JMOO

 

[Lilibet]

Maybe his mentor was Jose Baez. SMH

Well, they did go to the same law school!

Michael Winkleman - Miami, FL - Lawyer | Best Lawyers

St. Thomas University School of Law - Wikipedia
Scroll down to see famous alums.

 

[justbreathe]

yes - i did it long enough to take the pictures of the pier area - i think you must want to be a thrill seeker IMO to lean your body outside that window. And it isn't easy because the railing stops you depending on your height. It was a big effort for him to hold her outside the window IMO. It just isn't easy to do this especially against that heavy wind coming through the window.
JMO

Can anyone attest to the wind at that specific port and that side of the ship facing the same way? I am curious if there are times there is no wind - the the windows can face the wrong way for wind?

 

[justbreathe]

Ugh, I agree.

"Upon reaching this wall of glass, Chloe asked to be lifted up so that she could bang on the glass of the window, as Chloe frequently did at her older brother’s hockey games."

She' asked' to bang on the glass like she did at brother's hockey games? Pretty specific and long request from an 18 month old. I can believe she said 'UP... UP ' or something like that. But the rest is hyperbole.

And then they say:
'she leaned forward to bang on the glass'


So once again, it's her fault she fell...if only she hadn't leaned forward like that...


and:
'there was no glass in the frame in front of her, and she slipped from Mr. Anello’s arms, falling through the open pane...'

So SHE slipped, not like he dropped her or anything....



This defense team disgusts me, the way they are spinning this tragic story.

Ugh, I agree.

"Upon reaching this wall of glass, Chloe asked to be lifted up so that she could bang on the glass of the window, as Chloe frequently did at her older brother’s hockey games."

She' asked' to bang on the glass like she did at brother's hockey games? Pretty specific and long request from an 18 month old. I can believe she said 'UP... UP ' or something like that. But the rest is hyperbole.

And then they say:
'she leaned forward to bang on the glass'


So once again, it's her fault she fell...if only she hadn't leaned forward like that...


and:
'there was no glass in the frame in front of her, and she slipped from Mr. Anello’s arms, falling through the open pane...'

So SHE slipped, not like he dropped her or anything....



This defense team disgusts me, the way they are spinning this tragic story.

“ArmS”?? He went on tv and said he had her with 1 arm, as I recall.

 

[oviedo]

Can anyone attest to the wind at that specific port and that side of the ship facing the same way? I am curious if there are times there is no wind - the the windows can face the wrong way for wind?

I cannot - haven't been to PR before - but every single port I have ever docked in the wind is fierce on both sides of the ship - facing the pier and facing the water. I think it must have something to do with the height of the ship and the small opening of the window? not sure.
JMO

 

[dixiegirl1035]

It's a moot point now, and irrevocable, so I know it doesn't matter anymore, but there's something else that still just disturbs me.

Obviously Chloe did like to bang on the windows at her brother's hockey game. We have seen the picture. As others have mentioned, if she loved banging on windows she could have safely done it on the bottom window while standing, with SA wrapping his arms around her so she didn't run off into the crowds.

But she was a toddler. Everything would interest her for a minute or two or three. Most likely part of the attraction of banging on the windows at her brother's hockey game was to get his attention since she could see him on the ice. Also, it's very difficult to keep a toddler seated during an hours-long game. On a cruise ship, though, there are ten thousand things to do. She could have banged on anything, she could have gazed at anything. If Chloe, as SA stated, "asked" to bang on the glass, he could have wisely decided this wasn't the place for that and distracted her with absolutely anything else. He's the adult. He knows he's on a ship and not a hockey rink. Even while docked, a ship can rock somewhat. Maybe let her bang for three seconds on the bottom window and then move on to anything else.

It's like if she "asked" to go in the pool. He could have sat with her by the side, held her in his lap and let her feet touch the water. Instead, in this analogy, he tossed her alone into the deep end and let her drown.

Maybe he doted on her, liked to spoil her, didn't say "no." Here's where adulthood comes in. If she were excited by cars whizzing down a road, would he have let her run into traffic?

I'm just so angry, frustrated and disgusted because at the very beginning, my heart broke for him. His version of the story sounded like a split-second terrible accident. Now that we have seen the video I'm just so horrified that he still indicates that this is something Chloe wanted to do, and that he had no control over an awful, unforeseen tragic moment.

Everytime that I hear mention of and/or see the hockey photos, my mind goes to that photo that the Anthony's published to "prove" that Caylee could open the sliding glass door. GRRRRRRRR Neither photo proves anything MOO.

ETA: And she didn't get lifted up at the hockey games! Just like there, there was glass at the bottom she could have banged on. (Photo shows her hands on glass, not banging... why does he say banging for both himself and her)

"Chloe asked to be lifted up so that she could bang on the glass of the window, as Chloe frequently did at her older brother’s hockey games."

 

[SouthAussie]

As I posted up a ways, I saw the hat still on around the 11:00 mark. Did you view it there, from the side view angle?

Yes, I could see it at the back angle and at the side angle - prior to the critical moment. The white of it is quite bright.

But I do not see it at the critical moment. Only the dark shape of Chloe's head.




At 8:33/8:34 mark.
Video shows heartbreaking moment grandfather lifts tot girl to window aboard cruise ship before she falls 150 feet to her death

 

[dixiegirl1035]

“ArmS”?? He went on tv and said he had her with 1 arm, as I recall.

original CBS interview.

At 2:50 where he states "I had her, and I was trying to knock on the glass and at that point, I'm like well I'm going to have to lean further for her to be able to reach it, right, 'cause I thought it was further out than I expected ...I think that's the point she slipped out of me".