IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #5

[MsMarple]

It's a moot point now, and irrevocable, so I know it doesn't matter anymore, but there's something else that still just disturbs me.

Obviously Chloe did like to bang on the windows at her brother's hockey game. We have seen the picture. As others have mentioned, if she loved banging on windows she could have safely done it on the bottom window while standing, with SA wrapping his arms around her so she didn't run off into the crowds.

But she was a toddler. Everything would interest her for a minute or two or three. Most likely part of the attraction of banging on the windows at her brother's hockey game was to get his attention since she could see him on the ice. Also, it's very difficult to keep a toddler seated during an hours-long game. On a cruise ship, though, there are ten thousand things to do. She could have banged on anything, she could have gazed at anything. If Chloe, as SA stated, "asked" to bang on the glass, he could have wisely decided this wasn't the place for that and distracted her with absolutely anything else. He's the adult. He knows he's on a ship and not a hockey rink. Even while docked, a ship can rock somewhat. Maybe let her bang for three seconds on the bottom window and then move on to anything else.

It's like if she "asked" to go in the pool. He could have sat with her by the side, held her in his lap and let her feet touch the water. Instead, in this analogy, he tossed her alone into the deep end and let her drown.

Maybe he doted on her, liked to spoil her, didn't say "no." Here's where adulthood comes in. If she were excited by cars whizzing down a road, would he have let her run into traffic?

I'm just so angry, frustrated and disgusted because at the very beginning, my heart broke for him. His version of the story sounded like a split-second terrible accident. Now that we have seen the video I'm just so horrified that he still indicates that this is something Chloe wanted to do, and that he had no control over an awful, unforeseen tragic moment.

Well, the "official" story aka the Complaint says Chloe asked to be picked up. The unofficial story aka SA's TV interview says he decided to pick her up. Why? Because she couldn't reach the glass at the bottom, something I haven't understood since the beginning. He even said *he* couldn't reach the glass at the bottom so he knew Chloe couldn't either.

And yes, absolutely he knew he was on a ship and not at the hockey rink - unless he also has some sort of inability to recall where he is <sarcasm>.

ETA: Just saw @dixiegirl1035's post saying similar. I'm really slow typing my posts...sorry

 

[Kindred]

Yes, I could see it at the back angle and at the side angle - prior to the critical moment. The white of it is quite bright.

But I do not see it at the critical moment. Only the dark shape of Chloe's head.

You can see it. I've been doing screen grabs and marking them. She still has it on when she is fully extended out the window in the bright sunlight just before she completely disappears from the frame and his arms are still outstretched. It's just hard to see when she is inside and everything is all shadows

 

[mickey2942]

And if he won't doesn't that speak volumes...

In regards to the potential of plea agreement, SA may just roll the dice, and hope for continuances, waiting for the lawsuit against RCCL to playout. If there is any negligence found by RCCL, it would support his case.

Or, conversely, if RCCL is found to be not responsible in any way, and SA already rejected the plea, he would have to go to court, with a lot of deck chairs stacked against him.

It seems like a "Blink Game", who will "blink" first. Sadly, Chloe is sort of forgotten in this situation.

If SA is truly repentant, and wants to just heal and move forward, go get this over with and take whatever is offered.

 

[10ofRods]

It's been really hard to watch that video. Makes me ill each time.

He leans way out the window before he picks up Chloe. He spends at least 6-8 seconds peering out, then picks her up and almost immediately you can see that his right arm is not holding her. He puts her *way* out the window. What is he thinking? Is he simply the world's most distractible or stupid man? (Or both)?

As to why he didn't choose a safer thing to do, I think it's obvious he was not planning anything at all. It is indeed a mystery as to how he ends up being a sole caretaker for so many minutes.

He has to have known there was a sheer drop there, he bends over and looks out of the window (at least that's what I see in those videos).

 

[10ofRods]

ugh again I double-posted and had to delete. Will someone experienced on Websleuths please tell me how to delete a post? Other than just back spacing to erase? Thank you!

No way to delete that I know of, which is why you see DBM or ... so often, as people go back and remove their posts by cutting the original post and then typing DBM (deleted by me) or similar.

 

[oviedo]

It's been really hard to watch that video. Makes me ill each time.

He leans way out the window before he picks up Chloe. He spends at least 6-8 seconds peering out, then picks her up and almost immediately you can see that his right arm is not holding her. He puts her *way* out the window. What is he thinking? Is he simply the world's most distractible or stupid man? (Or both)?

As to why he didn't choose a safer thing to do, I think it's obvious he was not planning anything at all. It is indeed a mystery as to how he ends up being a sole caretaker for so many minutes.

He has to have known there was a sheer drop there, he bends over and looks out of the window (at least that's what I see in those videos).

This is what I saw looking down 11 decks

This is how far he had to lean his upper body out that window. I’m a broken record but it’s a big effort and no easy task IMO - he had to really want to hold her outside of it
JMO

 

[SouthAussie]

I cannot - haven't been to PR before - but every single port I have ever docked in the wind is fierce on both sides of the ship - facing the pier and facing the water. I think it must have something to do with the height of the ship and the small opening of the window? not sure.
JMO

When measuring wind, it is said that whatever the wind is at ground level it will be double that speed at the height of 11 stories up (115 feet) and will have six times more strength/power than at ground level.


If you measure wind speed at ground level, you can expect about 1.5 times the wind speed 30 feet up, which equates to about three times the power. At 120 feet above the ground, wind speed will be twice what is measured at ground level and power output will be more than twice the output at 30 feet.
Wind Power Information

 

[Arkay]

It’s only possible to delete before posting. Otherwise backspacing to erase and typing “DBM” (deleted by me) is all we have. You’re doing fine!

Thank you Lilibet, neesaki and 10ofRods. Still tripping up on some basics. Tomorrow will be a week since I've joined and I definitely appreciate all the vastly experienced posters here.

 

[borndem]

I am watching around the 8:33/8:34 mark, the critical moment. Do you think Chloe is looking out the window, or facing inwards towards him? I don't see her hat any more. Just the dark shape of her head.

Hmmm, interesting -- I couldn't see well enuff to see that her hat was missing, but if it had fallen off her head and was not on the floor of that room, then where did it go if the window had been closed???
Was there a little under-chin tie-string thing on the hat to keep her from losing it if it blew off in the wind or if it fell off her head? A lot of children's hats do have that little under-the-chin strap or ribbon that can be loosened but still be tied so that the hat will stay on the child. Hmmm. Interesting, interesting, @SouthAussie.

 

[oviedo]

Hmmm, interesting -- I couldn't see well enuff to see that her hat was missing, but if it had fallen off her head and was not on the floor of that room, then where did it go if the window had been closed???
Was there a little under-chin tie-string thing on the hat to keep her from losing it if it blew off in the wind or if it fell off her head? A lot of children's hats do have that little under-the-chin strap or ribbon that can be loosened but still be tied so that the hat will stay on the child. Hmmm. Interesting, interesting, @SouthAussie.

Hat is sun bonnet that is tied on. I never saw anything that looked like it blew off as far as I can tell it was still tied onto her little head

similar to what she was pictured in that dailymail hyped as her "last known picture" -
JMO
ETA picture

Chilling new video of toddler cruise fall

 

[borndem]

It’s relevant bc it proves he’s lying. Once a liar is exposed, EVERTHING he has ever said comes under suspicion and nothing can be trusted. I hope he goes to trial. Juries have been known to ask whether they can grant more than requested. Maybe they can assess more punishment. But I don’t think in a criminal setting they can assess more than the legal limits. Too bad. Hope it’s the max of time, fines, no parole for good behavior. And it destroys the civil case.

bbm
Most states (maybe all are required to have it, IDK) have "structured sentencing" guidelines that judges use for sentencing. They are based on prior crimes and other factors, and the judge has a range that s/he uses according to whether s/he thinks the crime is mitigated, presumptive, or aggravated, and each category usually has a range for each of the three levels, such as:
mitigated...........10 to 15 months (or years, etc)
presumptive......16 to 22 months (or years, etc.)
aggravated........23 to 40 months (or years, etc.).
Of course some crimes have hard sentences such as LWOP or Death.

This obviously is in place to keep a judge from extraordinary and/or unfair terms, and it takes other factors (age, race, sex, religion, etc.) out of the calculation

 

[neesaki]

Well, they did go to the same law school!

Michael Winkleman - Miami, FL - Lawyer | Best Lawyers

St. Thomas University School of Law - Wikipedia
Scroll down to see famous alums.

There ya go!

 

[neesaki]

Everytime that I hear mention of and/or see the hockey photos, my mind goes to that photo that the Anthony's published to "prove" that Caylee could open the sliding glass door. GRRRRRRRR Neither photo proves anything MOO.

ETA: And she didn't get lifted up at the hockey games! Just like there, there was glass at the bottom she could have banged on. (Photo shows her hands on glass, not banging... why does he say banging for both himself and her)

"Chloe asked to be lifted up so that she could bang on the glass of the window, as Chloe frequently did at her older brother’s hockey games."

Exactly! What he's saying is a lot of nonsense, quite to the point of being ridiculous, IMO.

 

[neesaki]

Yes, I could see it at the back angle and at the side angle - prior to the critical moment. The white of it is quite bright.

But I do not see it at the critical moment. Only the dark shape of Chloe's head.

View attachment 222359


At 8:33/8:34 mark.
Video shows heartbreaking moment grandfather lifts tot girl to window aboard cruise ship before she falls 150 feet to her death

I can't see it from that vantage point either, perhaps due to the shadows ? Unless the hat which was tied on her, possibly slid down and was hanging against the back of her neck / upper back at that point.

ETA: I'll take your word for it @Kindred that it can be seen in the screen shots you took.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

Thanks, @Kindred! Lots of information on the site. Repeating:
Link to SA's case: Portal de la Rama Judicial
Case # KVI2019M0003

Interesting, the Penal Code listed is from 2012. I can't find anything on the recent news (article published July 2012 updated December 2016)that @SouthAussie found about increasing the penalty. It may be there but my fractured Spanish can only take me so far .

http://www.ramajudicial.pr/leyes/CODIGO-PENAL-2012-CLASIFICACION-DELITOS-PENAS-APLICABLES.pdf

the portal opens everything. My limited Spanish knows leyes are laws. They had TS probably tribunals supreme. Etc.
substitute 2012 with 2019. Apparently their laws update September 1, annually.
In car friend driving. Can’t cut and paste. But I bet that would work. They have an index as well. Appellate cases. Looks like. Everything we need to know in one place.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

You can see it. I've been doing screen grabs and marking them. She still has it on when she is fully extended out the window in the bright sunlight just before she completely disappears from the frame and his arms are still outstretched. It's just hard to see when she is inside and everything is all shadows

armS? As in both arms? Still outside of the window frame. I didn’t see that in videos I’ve watched. Important bc he was holding her outside of the window. And she slipped, dropped, however you describe it. GONE.
Are there any leaked videos from exterior cameras?

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

armS? As in both arms? Still outside of the window frame. I didn’t see that in videos I’ve watched. Important bc he was holding her outside of the window. And she slipped, dropped, however you describe it. GONE.
Are there any leaked videos from exterior cameras?

None that I've seen, but I feel certain that there are at least a few videos from outside the vessel. There are definitely exterior surveillance cameras flanking both sides of the ship, and there is likely a lot of security surveillance alongside the ship while it's in port. There might also be surveillance cameras on buildings that surround the port in San Juan. Exterior cameras likely caught Grandpa leaning way out the window, followed by SA lifting Chloe up and outside the window frame, and her tragic fall onto the dock below

 

[SoCalDavidS]

One wonders if the family would support the plea deal which would mean the lawsuit wouldn’t fly, or if they would want him to continue the innocence charade so they can continue their lawsuit. I hope it’s the former...a much more honest and classy decision, as well as setting a good example for their son.

I see no chance that he'll take the plea deal. If that had been the direction they were headed, the lawsuit against RCCL would not have been filed. It's possible he would take the deal, and the lawsuit would continue, but I just don't see that as a realistic option.

 

[SpanishInquisition]

Ugh, I agree.

"Upon reaching this wall of glass, Chloe asked to be lifted up so that she could bang on the glass of the window, as Chloe frequently did at her older brother’s hockey games."

She' asked' to bang on the glass like she did at brother's hockey games? Pretty specific and long request from an 18 month old. I can believe she said 'UP... UP ' or something like that. But the rest is hyperbole.

And then they say:
'she leaned forward to bang on the glass'


So once again, it's her fault she fell...if only she hadn't leaned forward like that...


and:
'there was no glass in the frame in front of her, and she slipped from Mr. Anello’s arms, falling through the open pane...'

So SHE slipped, not like he dropped her or anything....



This defense team disgusts me, the way they are spinning this tragic story.

Winkelman isn't part of the defense team and in fact doesn't represent SA in any capacity. Given that DIL is a prosecutor and would be well aware of what's going legally, I've found it interesting how much Winkleman is doing that impacts SA even though he doesn't represent SA. Ordinarily I'd think the family was being bamboozled by a fast talking lawyer, but not in this case.

 

[SoCalDavidS]

None that I've seen, but I feel certain that there are at least a few videos from outside the vessel. There are definitely exterior surveillance cameras flanking both sides of the ship, and there is likely a lot of security surveillance alongside the ship while it's in port. There might also be surveillance cameras on buildings that surround the port in San Juan. Exterior cameras likely caught Grandpa leaning way out the window, followed by SA lifting Chloe up and outside the window frame, and her tragic fall onto the dock below

I'm no expert, but wouldn't video of him actually leaning his upper body outside the window, pretty much destroy any case against RCCL? Do they really intend to blame RCCL for having windows that open, if he KNEW that he was in front of a window that opens, and therefore could have avoided exposing Chloe to that window?