IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #5

[Kindred]

armS? As in both arms? Still outside of the window frame. I didn’t see that in videos I’ve watched. Important bc he was holding her outside of the window. And she slipped, dropped, however you describe it. GONE.
Are there any leaked videos from exterior cameras?

This is literally just as she disappears. Timestamp 6:25 on the HD comay video. You can see his outstretched arm right by the purple arrow. Because of his leaning his other arm is obscured.


This is approximately the same moment on the side view, he's leaning so far out over the rail that only his butt is visible. The only thing holding him up is his belly. Timestamp 11:51. If he's not using both arms to hold her then his right arm must be on the window frame itself because there is no way it's on the railing the way he's leaning.

 

[borndem]

Everytime that I hear mention of and/or see the hockey photos, my mind goes to that photo that the Anthony's published to "prove" that Caylee could open the sliding glass door. GRRRRRRRR Neither photo proves anything MOO.

ETA: And she didn't get lifted up at the hockey games! Just like there, there was glass at the bottom she could have banged on. (Photo shows her hands on glass, not banging... why does he say banging for both himself and her)

"Chloe asked to be lifted up so that she could bang on the glass of the window, as Chloe frequently did at her older brother’s hockey games."

bbm
That's what I've been thinking and saying all along -- let her bang on the glass while she stands, just like at the hockey games. If he had simply done that, she would most likely be alive and well.

 

[al66pine]

San Juan. July. Wind Speed & Direction. Ship Orientation at Dock?

Can anyone attest to the wind at that specific port and that side of the ship facing the same way? I am curious if there are times there is no wind - the the windows can face the wrong way for wind?

@justbreathe Good question.
Per pix in Complaint, G'pa SA & Chloe were close to Squeeze bar.
Per plan for Deck 11* Squeeze bar is on port side/left side of ship.
Ave. wind speed in July = 12.4 mph.**
Wind direction 90 degrees, coming from the east.***

What is orientation of Fr/Seas at dock? From google earthorsimilar images, can anyone tell? thx in adv.

----------------------------------------
* Deck Plans | Freedom of the Seas | Royal Caribbean Cruises
** The average hourly wind speed in San Juan is essentially constant during July, remaining within 0.2 miles per hour of 12.4 miles per hour throughout.
*** The hourly average wind direction in San Juan throughout July is predominantly from the east, with a peak proportion of 99% on July 15.
^ Average Weather in July in San Juan, Puerto Rico - Weather Spark

 

[al66pine]

San Juan. July. Wind Speed & Direction. Ship Orientation at Dock?

Can anyone attest to the wind at that specific port and that side of the ship facing the same way? I am curious if there are times there is no wind - the the windows can face the wrong way for wind?

@justbreathe Good question.
Per pix in Complaint, G'pa SA & Chloe were close to Squeeze bar.
Per plan for Deck 11* Squeeze bar is on port side/left side of ship.
Ave. wind speed in July = 12.4 mph.**
Wind direction 90 degrees, coming from the east.***

What is orientation of Fr/Seas at dock? From google earth or similar images, can anyone tell? thx in adv.

----------------------------------------
* Deck Plans | Freedom of the Seas | Royal Caribbean Cruises
** The average hourly wind speed in San Juan is essentially constant during July, remaining within 0.2 miles per hour of 12.4 miles per hour throughout.
*** The hourly average wind direction in San Juan throughout July is predominantly from the east, with a peak proportion of 99% on July 15.
^ Average Weather in July in San Juan, Puerto Rico - Weather Spark

 

[rjay]

View attachment 222368 This is what I saw looking down 11 decks
View attachment 222369
This is how far he had to lean his upper body out that window. I’m a broken record but it’s a big effort and no easy task IMO - he had to really want to hold her outside of it
JMO

OMG, just looking at that picture seals it for me that he was reckless. The railing is placed there for safety. If she fell, she was clearly over it, ie. on the wrong side of safety.

In what sane, responsible, logical mind is placing a baby over any railing safe? In my mind, when there’s a railing of any kind, even 2 ft off the ground, I clutch my children tighter to me to prevent them from looking too far out of curiosity. I protect them from harms way. Why? Why would he put poor Chloe there at risk of something as tragic as this? You just can’t answer these questions.

He should be held accountable, regardless of any other argument on intention. He was RECKLESS!

 

[oviedo]

None that I've seen, but I feel certain that there are at least a few videos from outside the vessel. There are definitely exterior surveillance cameras flanking both sides of the ship, and there is likely a lot of security surveillance alongside the ship while it's in port. There might also be surveillance cameras on buildings that surround the port in San Juan. Exterior cameras likely caught Grandpa leaning way out the window, followed by SA lifting Chloe up and outside the window frame, and her tragic fall onto the dock below

I think they have this video as well IMO - this will seal it as far as prosecuting him
JMO

 

[neesaki]

I see no chance that he'll take the plea deal. If that had been the direction they were headed, the lawsuit against RCCL would not have been filed. It's possible he would take the deal, and the lawsuit would continue, but I just don't see that as a realistic option.

I'm actually of the mind that he needs to be prosecuted, preferably after they up the charges. That's just my hope of course, but I guess we will have to wait and see.

 

[JulieBEMT]

San Juan. July. Wind Speed & Direction. Ship Orientation at Dock?
@justbreathe Good question.
Per pix in Complaint, G'pa SA & Chloe were close to Squeeze bar.
Per plan for Deck 11* Squeeze bar is on port side/left side of ship.
Ave. wind speed in July = 12.4 mph.**
Wind direction 90 degrees, coming from the east.***

What is orientation of Fr/Seas at dock? From google earth or similar images, can anyone tell? thx in adv.

----------------------------------------
* Deck Plans | Freedom of the Seas | Royal Caribbean Cruises
** The average hourly wind speed in San Juan is essentially constant during July, remaining within 0.2 miles per hour of 12.4 miles per hour throughout.
*** The hourly average wind direction in San Juan throughout July is predominantly from the east, with a peak proportion of 99% on July 15.
^ Average Weather in July in San Juan, Puerto Rico - Weather Spark

I believe it depends on what other ships are in port that day. Many of the images I pulled up of Freedom docked in San Juan show her with the starboard side against the pier. Even this news photo claiming to show the actual window that Chloe fell from gives us a starboard view. However, since we know that Squeeze is on the port side, and we saw Squeeze in the video, they had to be docked port side in.

 

[neesaki]

OMG, just looking at that picture seals it for me that he was reckless. The railing is placed there for safety. If she fell, she was clearly over it, ie. on the wrong side of safety.

In what sane, responsible, logical mind is placing a baby over any railing safe? In my mind, when there’s a railing of any kind, even 2 ft off the ground, I clutch my children tighter to me to prevent them from looking too far out of curiosity. I protect them from harms way. Why? Why would he put poor Chloe there at risk of something as tragic as this? You just can’t answer these questions.

He should be held accountable, regardless of any other argument on intention. He was RECKLESS!

ITA. To me, there are only a couple or three explanations for such irrational, reckless, and life endangering behavior toward a tiny innocent 18 month old child. Especially considering what the video shows. I think most here know which way I lean.

But, how about a questionnaire?

SA committed this unfathomable, heinous act that caused the death of 18 month old Chloe Wiegand, due to which one of the following:
1. SA is not of sound mind
2. SA is of considerably below average intelligence
Or, fill in the blank:
3. Depraved Indifference : Depraved Indifference Murder Law and Legal Definition | USLegal, Inc.
4. __________________________________.

Sorry, the last edit.

 

[Lilibet]

ITA. To me, there are only a couple or three explanations for such irrational, reckless, and life endangering behavior toward a tiny innocent 18 month old child. Especially considering what the video shows. I think most here know which way I lean.

But, how about a questionnaire?

SA committed this unfathomable, heinous act that caused the death of 18 month old Chloe Wiegand, due to which one of the following:
1. SA is not of sound mind
2. SA is of considerably below average intelligence
Or, fill in the blank:
3. ______________________________________.

3. SA has a somewhat “risk taking” personality (speeding and no seatbelts) that leads him to do really stupid and impulsive things when he is caught up in the moment.

I think he is in sound enough mind (unless he’d been drinking) and he’s intelligent enough to work in IT, so I discarded 1 and 2.

I don’t believe this was a calculated, deliberate act, but he showed “depraved indifference” to safety norms.

 

[al66pine]

Which Way Was Bow Pointing?

I believe it depends on what other ships are in port that day. Many of the images I pulled up of Freedom docked in San Juan show her with the starboard side against the pier. Even this news photo claiming to show the actual window that Chloe fell from gives us a starboard view. However, since we know that Squeeze is on the port side, and we saw Squeeze in the video, they had to be docked port side in.

@JulieBEMT Yes, yes, yes. Thank you. Still leaving unanswered the question --- which way was bow pointing?

If big IF bow was pointing south, then wind was coming straight thru windows at ~12 mph, from the east, per my earlier post #84.
Hard for anybody standing at a window to think it is closed. jmo
ETA: That's why I asked about above.

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

bbm
That's what I've been thinking and saying all along -- let her bang on the glass while she stands, just like at the hockey games. If he had simply done that, she would most likely be alive and well.

Maybe, until she banged on the wrong glass and then, oh, no, lawsuit time.

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

I'm actually of the mind that he needs to be prosecuted, preferably after they up the charges. That's just my hope of course, but I guess we will have to wait and see.

ITA

 

[neesaki]

3. SA has a somewhat “risk taking” personality (speeding and no seatbelts) that leads him to do really stupid and impulsive things when he is caught up in the moment.

I think he is in sound enough mind (unless he’d been drinking) and he’s intelligent enough to work in IT, so I discarded 1 and 2.

I don’t believe this was a calculated, deliberate act, but he showed “depraved indifference” to safety norms.

Thanks Lilibet. So just in case, I decided to edit and add an option #4.
And, the option of Depraved Indifference.

 

[sl222]

"Upon reaching this wall of glass, Chloe asked to be lifted up so that she could bang on the glass of the window..."

But she was already standing right in front of a glass pane.

Also SA said in his interview she had a hard time reaching the window from the floor. That makes no sense; she was closer to the stationary window on the floor than behind the safety rail.

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

"Upon reaching this wall of glass, Chloe asked to be lifted up so that she could bang on the glass of the window..."

But she was already standing right in front of a glass pane.

Also SA said in his interview she had a hard time reaching the window from the floor. That makes no sense; she was closer to the stationary window on the floor than behind the safety rail.

I hope SA gets his butt shredded in court. He is a lying liar who lies. Among other things.

 

[MsMarple]

the portal opens everything. My limited Spanish knows leyes are laws. They had TS probably tribunals supreme. Etc.
substitute 2012 with 2019. Apparently their laws update September 1, annually.
In car friend driving. Can’t cut and paste. But I bet that would work. They have an index as well. Appellate cases. Looks like. Everything we need to know in one place.

I just tried substituting the dates from 2013 to 2019 and no go. It was a good idea though. I'll dig in some more later after I make an apple cobbler

 

[oviedo]

ITA. To me, there are only a couple or three explanations for such irrational, reckless, and life endangering behavior toward a tiny innocent 18 month old child. Especially considering what the video shows. I think most here know which way I lean.

But, how about a questionnaire?

SA committed this unfathomable, heinous act that caused the death of 18 month old Chloe Wiegand, due to which one of the following:
1. SA is not of sound mind
2. SA is of considerably below average intelligence
Or, fill in the blank:
3. Depraved Indifference : Depraved Indifference Murder Law and Legal Definition | USLegal, Inc.
4. __________________________________.

Sorry, the last edit.

Honestly I think this was a repeat behavior for him - if I could take you all to the 11th deck I don’t think I would find a single one of you that would think poking your body outside that window feeling the very strong breeze then holding your baby outside the window dangling their legs would ever be ok - unless you’ve done this before - They are shown at ice hockey rinks - did he dangle her out of a parking garage on the top floor possibly? I just don’t thing this was the first “dangle” for him and Chloe
JMO

 

[Midwestmom2019]

I just tried substituting the dates from 2013 to 2019 and no go. It was a good idea though. I'll dig in some more later after I make an apple cobbler

You can’t substitute a range, I don’t think. One year. I think this site is like our state laws published by the year. Updated each year. But our appeals to go to state appellate level than SCt. This looks better bc PR has it by the year, in one place for all the appellate cases, the PR supreme court cases. From what I can guess at in Spanish. Small US territory so one publication. Most of our state
publications are separated by court, level etc. too much into one doc.
Anyway, maybe not. I suppose you could check index.
Cornell Law School has a GREAT site. Don’t know if they keep PR info.
No more sleuthing time. I’m catching up with other stuff. Real employment tomorrow.

edited to add: took a look around at site. Rabbit trails. But appears all there for PR. Cases? Maybe, too.

 

[MsMarple]

In regards to the potential of plea agreement, SA may just roll the dice, and hope for continuances, waiting for the lawsuit against RCCL to playout. If there is any negligence found by RCCL, it would support his case.

Or, conversely, if RCCL is found to be not responsible in any way, and SA already rejected the plea, he would have to go to court, with a lot of deck chairs stacked against him.

It seems like a "Blink Game", who will "blink" first. Sadly, Chloe is sort of forgotten in this situation.

If SA is truly repentant, and wants to just heal and move forward, go get this over with and take whatever is offered.

It's so crazy, especially if he was offered a plea deal as his attorney said. Msm said nothing was in writing so it's not clear if one was actually on the table.:
ABC reported that Anello’s defense attorney, Jose Perez, told reporters he plans to put together a team of experts to analyze the scene of the incident in preparation for a trial.

Perez also told ABC, however, the two parties have discussed an agreement in “general terms.” The prosecutor, Ivette Nieves, told the news station the prosecution has not ruled out a deal.
Attorney says grandfather of Granger toddler who fell from ship is not interested in plea deal

If he took one he would get no jail time and minimum probation. But he would have to plead guilty to the charge. It's a misdemeanor for goodness sakes, not a felony. It makes no sense. What you said about SA "rolling the dice" and hoping for continuances until the civil suit is over.

At the same time if that is the case then it implies that he isn't all that confident that he'll get a not guilty verdict. On some level he may very well understand how reckless his actions were.

But if it's all about the civil suit and money then good luck to him for sacrificing his freedom for the family's benefit. IMO and only my opinion it tells me the parents don't have his best interest in mind no matter what they say in public.

P.S. I *do* believe he should sit in jail for a period.