IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #5

[LietKynes]

DailyMail July 9 Headline, Family & Ship pix, Supplied by??? ?
@SouthAussie A good reminder for us, w two interesting points.

----- Headline July 9: "We Haven't Ruled Out Murder" per LE.
IIRC, early on some posters said: accident, could not be a crime.

----Photo Credits, printed within image and most showing copyright symbol.
- Several state, fam pix, Supplied.--Any ideas other than law firm, who got from KSW & AW?
- Two state Today Show. Booked? < 48 hrs after death. Somebody was on the ball. Law firm?
- One or two, fam pix, show Facebook.
- One shows Chris Bolt for Daily Mail.
- Window pic at night, caption say Chloe's Father took after her fall.
Police investigating death of Indiana tot who fell from cruise ship have not ruled out murder | Daily Mail Online

lavender bbm
ITA.
Had to bump this .

Doubtful (just my opinion) that the law firms' job is to book "Today Show's" -- in two states, no less -- for people fighting for wads of cash via lawsuits.

So most likely the Wiegands' wanted RCCL to know they were coming after them for their (RCCL's) "responsibility" for Chloe's death.

Agreed about someone being 'on the ball'and prepared for any calamity that should happen.
Quite a vigorous, strenuous effort on the parent's behalf -- I have to give them kudos for that !

The sad and forgotten element in this is a toddler's sad, lonely fall 11 stories down with no one there responsible enough to protect her.
RCCL is also a victim in a way as they did nothing wrong.

 

[Chikkamma]

Omg! You're right! There are definitely rules about sudden violent death!
Rule #1 is "scream for help for the obviously deceased victim".

That must mean the parents were in on it too! Because they didn't scream for anyone to help Chloe either! They also just collapsed after looking down those 150 feet!

In fact, nobody on board screamed for help! They were all in on it! Maybe she was a cult sacrifice...

Yes, that is exactly what I was saying [sarcasm].

Just so you know, the prosecutors in Puerto Rico considered charging him with murder. I am still not convinced it was intentional, but possible pre-meditation is not as off-base as you seem to believe.

I worked in an Emergency Department for several years. Yes, there do seem to be certain rules when a loved one suddenly and violently dies. Rule #1: the family can never immediately grasp the concept that their loved one is dead. I have had family members demand that we resuscitate a decapitated patient. How SA was able to accept and internalize the reality of Chloe’s death so immediately after the accident, and to the point that he did not even call for help, I do not understand.

 

[SouthAussie]

RCCL is also a victim in a way as they did nothing wrong.

I definitely include Royal Caribbean among the victims of this tragedy.

They have been around for over 50 years, employ thousands of people, create jobs at various ports, use multiple suppliers, bring business to many poorer island communities ... and they are sitting back and showing dignity while their 'standards' are being (erroneously) questioned and fingers are pointing at them.

Just because they are a company does not mean that this does not have a knock-on effect on them.
I am sure they have many distraught crew members, board directors, shareholders, passengers who were sent reeling in shock by SA's actions and Chloe's death.

 

[Arkay]

I definitely include Royal Caribbean among the victims of this tragedy.

They have been around for over 50 years, employ thousands of people, create jobs at various ports, use multiple suppliers, bring business to many poorer island communities ... and they are sitting back and showing dignity while their 'standards' are being (erroneously) questioned and fingers are pointing at them.

Just because they are a company does not mean that this does not have a knock-on effect on them.
I am sure they have many distraught crew members, board directors, shareholders, passengers who were sent reeling in shock by SA's actions and Chloe's death.

Agree completely. They have also been known to assist when there are tragedies in ports that they serve. I've disembarked in several of those
Ports, such as Haiti and Puerto Rico. After natural disasters there, RC has kicked in money, supplies, food and I think even used the ships to transport people out. Not quite sure if I'm remembering that last part correctly.
Not to mention the potential passengers that will not book passage anymore, fearing that the ship is dangerous for their children.

ETA: looked it up but am having trouble linking it here. They cancelled a cruise and sent a ship to Puerto Rico after Hurricane Maria to ferry 3000 people to Ft. Lauderdale. They've assisted after Hurricane Irma and Hurricane Dorian in the Bahamas.

 

[al66pine]

Winkleman. Early MSM Coverage and Since.
Clipped from my earlier post:
----Photo Credits, printed within image and most showing copyright symbol.
- Several state, fam pix, Supplied.--Any ideas other than law firm, who got from KSW & AW?
- Two state Today Show. Booked? < 48 hrs after death. Somebody was on the ball. Law firm?

lavender
Doubtful (just my opinion) that the law firms' job is to book "Today Show's" -- in two states,...

@LietKynes Whoops, I did not word or punctuate well. My mistake.
Photo credit on 2 pix = (c)"Today Show." <--- One show, nationwide. Not in 2 states.
Also pic of Winkleman in same story has gives photo credit to "Today Show."
Imo parents provided pix to law firm to provide to Today Show. Ditto to provide to DailyMail.

I could be wrong, but imo, law firm got Winkleman booked on "Today Show." jmo
Anyway, point in earlier post was - imo, Winkleman hustled for early MSM coverage for case.

From law firm's website bragging page, (TV Appearances - Lipcon, Margulies, Alsina & Winkleman, P.A.
Winkleman appeared on "Today Show" AND "CBS Evening News" July 9.
And other national shows about 10 more times since then.

 

[neesaki]

Question for people who don't think that SA should be charged with negligent homicide...can anyone explain to me, why a man would lift a child over a guardrail, hold her outside of a window, 11 stories up?

Especially, as seen in the video, that SA deliberately placed his entire head out of the exact window prior to when he picked up Chloe, and lifted her over the guardrail, outside of an open window.

Please provide an explanation for this inexplicable behavior to me.

This is really disturbing, IMO. It’s as though he’s checking, scoping it out, looking to see who’s watching. Twice, once before he lifted Chloe, and again right after. WTH was he doing? And why?

 

[neesaki]

Screams & Witnesses
DailyMail July 9 reported Chloe let out a "blood curdling scream" as she fell, "according to witnesses."*
Who would hear screams of toddler falling from ship? Ppl on Deck 11, where SA was? Or ppl on the ground, some waiting to board, some loading cargo? Or???

And if heard by ppl on ground, are they the "outside witnesses" LE or the prosecutor referred to, saying they had both inside and outside witnesses?

Police investigating death of Indiana tot who fell from cruise ship have not ruled out murder | Daily Mail Online July 9

I want to learn more about the witnesses, and hear what they have to say.

 

[MsMarple]

bbm
Ita. ^^^

But how could he ? The parents would lose untold millions.
The lawsuit said they could ask for unlimited damages for the ships' causing their daughters' death.
Unlimited.
If not for RCCL , the mom and daughter were going to go to the movies and watch "Frozen 2"; and she also said if it were not for the ship--- her daughter would be alive.

Lol, luckily "unlimited" damages is not the same as damages recoverable by law, which is what the complaint states, although juries have the capacity to award huge damages. The judge can modify the damage award if s/he determines the jury's award was based on passion/empathy rather than on the facts. And even that can be appealed, and so on.

And while the criminal and civil cases are intertwined to an extent, it is possible for the criminal court to find SA guilty but the civil suit could still award damages or the criminal court finds SA not guilty but the court quashes the civil suit. IOW one may help or hinder the other but one won't determine what happens in the other, the court and juries will.

For example, in the OJ case he was found not guilty in criminal court but a jury awarded a huge number in the wrongful death suit. Criminal and civil courts are different court systems and the burden of proof is different for each.

What I'm not clear on is whether or not evidence and judgments from either case can be used as evidence in the other. All MOO.

 

[neesaki]

Yes, that is exactly what I was saying [sarcasm].

Just so you know, the prosecutors in Puerto Rico considered charging him with murder. I am still not convinced it was intentional, but possible pre-meditation is not as off-base as you seem to believe.

I worked in an Emergency Department for several years. Yes, there do seem to be certain rules when a loved one suddenly and violently dies. Rule #1: the family can never immediately grasp the concept that their loved one is dead. I have had family members demand that we resuscitate a decapitated patient. How SA was able to accept and internalize the reality of Chloe’s death so immediately after the accident, and to the point that he did not even call for help, I do not understand.

I’ve had my own suspicions, but still get chills all over reading this.

 

[LietKynes]

Winkleman. Early MSM Coverage and Since.
Clipped from my earlier post:
----Photo Credits, printed within image and most showing copyright symbol.
- Several state, fam pix, Supplied.--Any ideas other than law firm, who got from KSW & AW?
- Two state Today Show. Booked? < 48 hrs after death. Somebody was on the ball. Law firm?

@LietKynes Whoops, I did not word or punctuate well. My mistake.
Photo credit on 2 pix = (c)"Today Show." <--- One show, nationwide. Not in 2 states.
Also pic of Winkleman in same story has gives photo credit to "Today Show."
Imo parents provided pix to law firm to provide to Today Show. Ditto to provide to DailyMail.

I could be wrong, but imo, law firm got Winkleman booked on "Today Show." jmo
Anyway, point in earlier post was - imo, Winkleman hustled for early MSM coverage for case.

From law firm's website bragging page, (TV Appearances - Lipcon, Margulies, Alsina & Winkleman, P.A.
Winkleman appeared on "Today Show" AND "CBS Evening News" July 9.
And other national shows about 10 more times since then.

Oh, no problem.
I misread.
Was responding as my opinion and not to your post.

Hope that made sense.
I can be as clear as mud.

Hmm... Winkleman's been a busy boy !
Needs that cash.
And he and some of his clients are a match made in heaven; or maybe the other place ?

 

[Safeguard]

Question for people who don't think that SA should be charged with negligent homicide

I don't think there are any people who don't think he should be charged with neg. hom.

And I would like to know why...SA is on this family cruise, all kinds of things to see and do, he's babysitting his little "best friend"...makes a beeline to the only open window

Edited, because I see I misunderstood your point... SA was called upon by Chloe’s mom, as she had to attend an issue with the cruise arrangements, he was likely just letting her explore.

Chloe made the beeline for that area. SA followed after her. Seems to me some people are not following the facts, so much as trying to twist the facts to fit their theory that SA deliberately murdered Chloe.

DailyMail July 9 reported Chloe let out a "blood curdling scream" as she fell, "according to witnesses

Not to discount DailyMail, but No one else reported that, and mistakes have been made, such as Chloe having two siblings...

The sad and forgotten element in this is a toddler's sad, lonely fall 11 stories down

I doubt Chloe has been "forgotten" by anyone. Most likely no one will ever forget a single searing second of her death. But what can be done for her at this point? Those she left are in crisis and are dealing with unbelievably painful things, what are they supposed to do? What exactly, besides give up the misguided law suit, would you like them to being doing?

How SA was able to accept and internalize the reality of Chloe’s death so immediately after the accident, and to the point that he did not even call for help, I do not understand.

Not just SA but also her parents. We didn't see what they saw when they looked down. I would not be so inclined to presume to be an authority on what they should have done.

 

[Chikkamma]

Not just SA but also her parents. We didn't see what they saw when they looked down. I would not be so inclined to presume to be an authority on what they should have done.

MSM made no comment about what her parents did or did not say (probably to respect their privacy since they were not the ones who dropped her), so we do not know what they said.

MSM did comment on what SA said and none of those things were asking for help for Chloe or inquiring about her status.

 

[Safeguard]

MSM made no comment about what her parents did or did not say

"Passengers in a dining area overlooking a swimming pool heard horrifying screams at 4.30pm on Sunday.

One passenger told Telemundo PR: “We heard the screams of the families because we were close.

“A cry of pain of that nature does not compare with any other cry.”

The tot was declared at the scene after suffering blunt force trauma to the head as a result of the 150ft fall."
Granddad who left toddler to fall 150ft from cruise arrives back in US

my experience tells me it would have been some permutation of “Somebody do something!” or “Is she going to be ok[/QUOTE]

Seriously?

 

[Midwestmom2019]

I just first looked at the fundraiser the parents had initiated for their son to play hockey abroad. I have to say I found it disturbing, because it's such a first-world "problem," they have professional careers, and it just seemed like begging for money for something luxurious. You know, maybe don't spend money on a cruise, and use that to sponsor your son's trip yourselves.

However, IMO the lawsuit against RCCL is instigated by the lawyer and as I've said before, is really a way to find a target for blame other than SA. It's too emotionally anguishing to have to face the fact that SA is completely at fault. If I were SA I could not carry on. If I were Kim's mother, married to SA, I would divorce him because I would never be able to look at him again. Without a doubt, the lawyer is doing his job, disgusting though it may be, and the parents feel that Royal Caribbean took away their daughter and they will make them pay.

However, IMO, while the video proves SA was lying, and it is 100% negligence and recklessness on his part, I do not at all think it is murder. I know the prosecutors in PR know more than we do, and they say all different charges are being considered, but that's because they are holding everything close to the vest. As an outsider looking in, I don't see anything that suggests intent. Just stupidity and a sense of arrogance based on his reckless history. That he was for damn sure going to give Chloe a thrill, ignoring the barrier, the height, the OPEN window. But I do not see murder. What would be the motive? She wasn't leaving him money in her will. She wasn't leaving him a life insurance policy. She wasn't a burden because he wasn't raising her. They didn't live with Chloe so she wasn't taking away his wife's attention. What would he gain? Why do it in a place where thousands of people might have noticed?

As for him collapsing and not asking for help, thank God I'm not in his situation. If he's telling the truth that he saw her fall all the way, he would know it was hopeless. I think I would have been screaming for someone below to catch her. I think I might have desperately tried to dive out the window just to catch her myself. I really don't know. I might have just collapsed, too.

Do not presume there was no motive. I get deleted when I discuss motives. Think outside this thread. Look up what are the top murder motives.

 

[Chikkamma]

"Passengers in a dining area overlooking a swimming pool heard horrifying screams at 4.30pm on Sunday.

One passenger told Telemundo PR: “We heard the screams of the families because we were close.

“A cry of pain of that nature does not compare with any other cry.”

The tot was declared at the scene after suffering blunt force trauma to the head as a result of the 150ft fall."
Granddad who left toddler to fall 150ft from cruise arrives back in US

The nature of your posts seem very combative.

MSM said the mom screamed. They did not say what words her parents did or did not utter.

Yes, I am being completely serious about the parents hypothetically asking “Is she going to be ok?”. I worked in emergency medicine for years. This is a very common thing to ask in a sudden and violent death, even when a patient is clearly and visibly deceased.

 

[neesaki]

And I would like to know why...SA is on this family cruise, all kinds of things to see and do, he's babysitting his little "best friend"...makes a beeline to the only open window and of all things, finds it necessary to "knock on the glass? Really? Eleven stories up. Knock on glass. I just do not get it.

ITA. I do not get it and never will. No half way reasonable, half way intelligent, human being with a conscience would ever, ever do what he did... raising that baby up and out a window that high up.

My gosh, even animals watch over their babies better than that. I do agree with @Lilibet , that if nothing else, this crime is a depraved heart murder. This man is depraved, aka “wicked; morally corrupt”..... in his show of utter disrespect and disregard for baby Chloe’s life.

Was it intentional? No proof, but he endangered her life beyond comprehension , so extremely that he dropped her out of a window to her death. This, after he was shown with his entire head out of the window looking down, down at that bottom of the 150 ft. drop to the concrete below. Why? What was he looking at / for?

It’s such a heinous crime, that as responsible adults and citizens, we have to question, is there a motive? I surely hope that PR prosecutors are investigating every single blip and bling in the life of SA. Including any and all of his connections, especially his online activity and computer? Perhaps no one really knows this man. Not impossible.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depraved-heart_murder
In United States law, depraved-heart murder, also known as depraved-indifference murder, is a type of murder where an …individual acts with a "depraved indifference" to human life and where such act results in a death, despite that individual not explicitly intending to kill.

 

[Safeguard]

The nature of your posts seem very combative.

MSM said the mom screamed. They did not say what words her parents did or did not utter. And yes, I am being completely serious about the parents hypothetically asking “Is she going to be ok?”. I worked in emergency medicine for years and this is a very common thing to ask, even when a patient is clearly deceased.

Im sorry you feel my posts are "combative". I have a feeling any opinion other than SA being a cold blooded killer would be seen as "combative" by some.

Chloe's mom gave an interview and stated exactly what she said at the time.

 

[Lilibet]

Personally, I have found it best not to project as the norm what I would do or what is usually observed in a particular situation. On many threads what seemed to be abnormal or suspicious behavior ends up meaning nothing. People react differently.

What was really abnormal about SA’s behavior was holding Chloe out the window and risking her life. How he acted after he dropped her doesn’t mean that he did it on purpose IMO. We really have no basis for “going there” on the thread, but it seems to be slipping in again. The carelessness SA showed (depraved indifference for Chloe’s safety and life) is bad enough IMO. LE will let us know if/when they add more charges.

Another point: Something I have to remind myself is that the videos are in slow motion. The whole thing happened much faster. So the approximately 30 seconds on the video that Chloe was held outside the window is not real time. That being said, I don’t think we can say that he “tossed” her out the window. Unintentional idiocy can happen just as quickly as a deliberate act.
JMO

 

[cobalt sky]

Deleted

 

[Safeguard]

The prosecution offering a plea deal with no time served, suggests they don't believe it was premeditated murder.

I would like to have seen the depraved heart murder rather than involuntary, (or which ever carried the stiffer sentence.) Reading the definition of DHM it certainly seems to fit.