IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #5

[Lilibet]

I get your point but how could any adult human being hold a child out an 11 story window as just playing around? It’s so extreme. I can see a careless person allowing a toddler to walk on the top of the back of a couch and then fall but 11 stories up? That doesn’t make one ounce of sense. Not one.

It happens. It is extreme. Some people are stupid risk-takers. Michael Jackson held his baby son “Blanket” over a balcony railing to “show him” to the crowds below. He was “only” three stories up and he got slammed for it. But if he had dropped him it would have been unintentional (negligent homicide) and not intentional (murder).

Photo at link
BBC NEWS | Entertainment | Jackson: Baby stunt was 'mistake'

 

[SouthAussie]

It happens. It is extreme. Some people are stupid risk-takers. Michael Jackson held his baby son “Blanket” over a balcony railing to “show him” to the crowds below. He was “only” three stories up and he got slammed for it. But if he had dropped him it would have been unintentional (negligent homicide) and not intentional (murder).

Photo at link
BBC NEWS | Entertainment | Jackson: Baby stunt was 'mistake'

Yes, adults can do many stupid and reckless things with their small children.
This small child was left at home alone, had access to the balcony, and was rescued by a brave soul who scaled the floors up to rescue him as he dangled precariously.

Unfortunately, SA isn't the first and won't be the last to take chances with a small child.


Mali ‘Spider-Man’ hero saves Paris child from balcony

 

[MsFacetious]

I would NOT trust a journalist with something I did not want released.

I’d go to the media if I WANTED it released to the public.
That’s the only reason I can think of.

See and they didn't GIVE them the video they only let them VIEW it. So their argument would be that they didn't TRUST them with it.

 

[Safeguard]

Also, right before she ran to the windows he leaned down and said something to her. Did he tell her to go to the windows?

IMO from the side view video it happened so fast that it looks like he coaxed her to that spot. Looked out and leaned out. He had to know there wasn’t glass or anything foot sturdy past that ledge. It was the view of the ground. He then picks her up and sort of flings her over the railing. Not even gently. Then you see him one handed!! Then IMO, I almost feel as if it appears he’s trying to let go but she’s holding on and he has to undo her grasp.

At the risk of seeming *ahem* "combative"...

I have no idea where your getting all of this from. You "feel" you saw, in the side view, Chloe fighting for her life? Desperately trying to hang to to SA while he prys her little fingers from their grip on his hand?

There have some very creative spins on how Chloe was lured to that window specifically so Sam could murder her there, but you win for the most imaginative murderous spin on what happened in the video, from any view.

And just saying, (once again). It was not quick. She was not "gone in a split second" as Winkleman has stated.

Eta. In fact, what can be clearly seen in the forward facing video, is Chloe, seemingly enjoying herself, stretching out both arms, fingers pointing up, as if to feel the breeze. Which, I suspect led to the banging on the hockey glass lie.

She seems to be unafraid, (at least at that point) as evidenced by the fact that she is not holding on to anything. Both her arms are outstretched, and she is leaning forward almost horizontally.

 

[neesaki]

SA saying he thought glass was there doesn’t make any sense to me. The whole wall was windows. He stuck half his body beyond the wall of windows. For quite some time. Did he seriously think that particular “window” jutted out three feet beyond the whole wall in just that one spot? Also, right before she ran to the windows he leaned down and said something to her. Did he tell her to go to the windows? Then in the video from behind after he looked out the arrow shows him or Chloe go to the right for a bit and then they end up back at that open window. Or am I mistaken? Either way I see him bend out the open window twice and then carelessly fling her into the sill and go one handed right away. I just wish there was a closer video. Not that I’d want to see her fall but to have a better understanding. I don’t know how this could have been an accident.

Re bolded, that part wasn’t clear to me at all, as there are a lot of people clustered together and I can’t make him out. Just the red arrow... but have been wondering about it too. Maybe Chloe wondered off back that direction and he went after her and took her back to the window? I guess I’ll try to go back and watch it.... again.

 

[Safeguard]

Re bolded, that part wasn’t clear to me at all, as there are a lot of people clustered together and I can’t make him out. Just the red arrow... but have been wondering about it too. Maybe Chloe wondered off back that direction and he went after her and took her back to the window? I guess I’ll try to go back and watch it.... again.

In the la comay video the host shows replays. He rewinds and shows SA walking to the window twice. I didn't catch that at first, but then I noticed people "walking backwards" on the deck and then forward again. Than I understood. Some versions that are going around have edited that part out (to shorten it I assume)

 

[BeachSky]

Twitter
In this video DB says SA had not purchased alcohol once on board.His defense attorney in PR said he had not swiped his cruise card for purchases at all, not even for a bottled water.
DB does say “ from the moment he looked out that window”

MOO

 

[Lawsmygame2]

I have watched both video many times and there is something that bothers me. On the video showing backside view (not side), it shows that SA bent down and picked up CW and sat her on the railing (to his right). Then moments later he picked her up puts her in front of him on what seems like the ledge (no longer on railing but appears to be standing). Does anyone else see this or has it already been discussed?

 

[they'll get you]

I have watched both video many times and there is something that bothers me. On the video showing backside view (not side), it shows that SA bent down and picked up CW and sat her on the railing (to his right). Then moments later he picked her up puts her in front of him on what seems like the ledge (no longer on railing but appears to be standing). Does anyone else see this or has it already been discussed?

Yes I see him shift her from his right then to his left.

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

But why would he murder Chloe?

I do have a couple of theories, but to post them here is a violation of TOS and I don't care to get timed out or worse. JMOO.

 

[SouthAussie]

I have watched both video many times and there is something that bothers me. On the video showing backside view (not side), it shows that SA bent down and picked up CW and sat her on the railing (to his right). Then moments later he picked her up puts her in front of him on what seems like the ledge (no longer on railing but appears to be standing). Does anyone else see this or has it already been discussed?

Yes, I see that too. I think Chloe is standing on the window ledge at the critical moment. Or being held in the vicinity of the window ledge in an upright position, with SA only using one arm to hold her there - while he is stretched out over the safety rail. From my perspective, anyway.

 

[Safeguard]

I have watched both video many times and there is something that bothers me. On the video showing backside view (not side), it shows that SA bent down and picked up CW and sat her on the railing (to his right). Then moments later he picked her up puts her in front of him on what seems like the ledge (no longer on railing but appears to be standing). Does anyone else see this or has it already been discussed?

Exactly. That's why for me, the forward facing video has always been the more revealing of the two.

The side view depicted how far, (and for how long!) SA leaned out that window before he picked up Chloe. There can be no mistake that he knew the window was open. So, from that view we get to see that for ourselves, he was nearly bent in half, for 8 ish seconds. He knew. Clearly.

The forward view is where we see the best view of Chloe and SA. The actual movements of both.

I have an awesome cell phone for media and have gone over the available footage frame by frame.

What I have seen is he bends down, picks her up, stands her (extremely briefly!) on the railing, then sits her on it, then, (not "moments later" because she fell within 25 seconds clocked) he shifts her to his left arm, and out to the window still. Before he has time to bring his right arm up to her, she leans forward...

Right then is where she reached both arms outward and he leans way over, (imo because he lost his grip right then and was trying to regain it), he tried but failed to grab her and she fell.

 

[sl222]

He let his right arm just hang at his side for some time.

Editing to add: I don't know if hanging is the correct way to put it. His right arm was not holding on to Chloe or attempting to hold on to her, it's quite visibile in the frame and just seeing the arm so far INSIDE was a big surprise.

I too noticed that at first she was on his left and then she was moved to the other side. Video from the outside is really important - close up of course, for the purpose of seeing what happened and what exactly led to her being dropped.

No one other than authorities should see the length of the fall itself. But a close-up view would answer most of the questions.

 

[they'll get you]

Yes, I see that too. I think Chloe is standing on the window ledge at the critical moment. Or being held in the vicinity of the window ledge in an upright position, with SA only using one arm to hold her there - while he is stretched out over the safety rail. From my perspective, anyway.

I see that as well SouthAussie, on the side video after he shifts her to his centre/left, his right elbow is seen backwards which leads me to believe that he’s holding her with his left arm.

 

[Montrealaise]

I know one or two people who have absolutely no problem letting everyone else pay for anything and everything.
I could give you examples ... but I think we likely all know some of that kind of person.

The begging for money to send their son to Europe for a hockey tournament reminds me of a situation I came across when I was living in a fairly affluent suburb. On Saturday afternoons, a group of boys aged about 10 to 12 would stand at the entrance to a shopping mall, asking people to donate money so they would buy hockey equipment. At the end of the day, their mothers would come pick them up, driving luxury SUV's (Cadillac Escalades, Mercedes, Audis and so on). Enough money to buy an $80,000 vehicle, but none to buy your child sports equipment?

 

[Safeguard]

He let his right arm just hang at his side for some time.

How long within those 25 seconds would you estimate be "let his right arm hang?

 

[sl222]

How long within those 25 seconds would you estimate be "let his right arm hang?

I would have to look at it again and time it. I edited my post to be more specific about what I saw; that his right arm was visible inside and does not appear to be securing Chloe; hanging was probably not the right way to put it.

 

[Safeguard]

I would have to look at it again and time it. I edited my post to be more specific about what I saw; that his right arm was visible inside and does not appear to be securing Chloe; hanging was probably not the right way to put it.

Thank you. I was going to ask you for a time stamp because I never saw his right arm "hang" and I wanted to see if I missed it somehow.

 

[BeachSky]

Dbm

 

[Safeguard]

I almost feel as if it appears he’s trying to let go but she’s holding on and he has to undo her grasp.

Can you give me a timestamp reference for where, in the video, you think you see this? TIA!