IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand #5

[al66pine]

@they'll get you posted :
"Under stress his lies flowed easily.
I think he’s well skilled at it."

He doesn't seem to lie very well at all to me. No one believes him....

@Safeguard sbm bbm Agreeing w your ^ thoughts 100%.
Fast/frequent liar is not necessarily a believable liar.
For some ppl or for some skills, practice does not make perfect. jmo

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

If I am understanding correctly, Winkleman represents the Wiegands and would have no part in Anello's defense? He has really put his foot squarely in his own mouth a couple of times IMO.

I cannot find it now, but there was one interview where Winkleman is told that it appears that Anello's head and upper body are through the window. He says something to the effect that that is "what it looks like, [but]...", then they cut off.

From this and some other statements he's made, its obvious that Anello's defense is "not his job".

Winkleman's point is that if the window didn't open, SA could not have put his head and upper body through the window. His job is to find RCCL responsible and held accountable for Chloe's death.

 

[Chikkamma]

We are going to need some actual measurements here as to SA's height and arm reach, and if his head actually cleared the window ledge.

Yes, this piece of information is going to be critical. Since the window ledge was 18” away from the guardrail, it must be determined if SA’s head did indeed go past the window pane when he leaned over.

I am 5’5” and the distance from the top of my head to top of my armpit is 14 inches. I am fairly certain SA’s head would have cleared the window pane, but we shall see.

 

[Forever Young]

I think if SA really, really truly believed there was glass there then he is either a bloody idiot, vision impaired, or cognitively impaired, none of which has anything to do with RCCL and everything to do with why he should not have been watching her and should have known better than to let her wander from the kids’ play area over to the bar area.

I have a question for the poster who said that they had examined the La Comay video frame by frame; and if we do have confirmation that this was a smoking area?

I also noticed early on that SA appears to be touching his face twice while making his way to the window. At first I believed that his glasses had slid down and that he was pushing them up.

After watching it a few more times, I thought that yes, it does appear he could be smoking, and I have seen smokers hold their cigarette cupped inside their hand just like that, especially while moving through a crowded area.

On the La Comay video posted here,

Video shows heartbreaking moment grandfather lifts tot girl to window aboard cruise ship before she falls 150 feet to her death

at what would be the -6:15 mark, I am seeing what IMO could be his right arm extend out the window and back to his side very quickly. There is a black bar that appears at that point that looks like his shirt sleeve.

If that is the case it is consistent with the movement made by flicking a cigarette out the window. In which case, he would have observed it fly out and would have known the window is open.

This happens in a fraction of a second and is very hard to catch. Keep your eyes on SA, after they back the video up and show him walking to the window for a second time. This anomaly is not visible in all "takes" because they tend to stop it there - as he appears to be looking out over the window at just that point.

 

[justbreathe]

Nice post.
I disagree that it looks intentional though. It doesn't look the least bit planned to me.

It looks like they were just looking around at everything aboard the ship, and he impulsively decided to let her look out the window.

I don't get the sense that he even thought much about it really. As odd and dangerous as we see that decision,

in the moment he doesn't seem to be considering anything more than a peek outside to me.

I have considered he may have been playing 'pretend I'm gonna drop' you', but after viewing every which way, far too many times, I just don't see anything that looks like he deliberately tossed her out. Not one thing.

A foolish decision & over confidence with a tragic outcome.

That's all I can be sure of, from what we have available.

This is what makes his actions so very strange. He is so casual. Yet people say holding their phone over the rail takes their breath away. They say not to put babies on the countertop or edge of the bed so they don’t fall. So did he actually believe the window was there?

But HOW? He stuck his head out the window. I would love to hear about the wind that day on the boat. But everything I read says the higher up you go, the stronger the wind, so I can’t imagine the breeze couldn’t be felt. It makes no sense.

So he - casually swung her up into an open window 11 stories high and had absolutely no inner recoil, as the wind blew and he looked down? Was he so completely arrogant as to not see the danger, to think, “I got this, this railing is stupid”?

Or was he so out of it, he truly was not able to feel and respond to his own senses? Why? Why would he not feel the wind, or see the height and window tint? Drugs, drinking, stroke, what? Colorblindness alone does not explain what happened here.

Or he deliberately put her outside and dropped her, for no apparent reason.

Every scenario based on the video puts the blame squarely with SA and no one else, certainly not RCCL.

He is either stupid, impaired or evil, and none of those can be planned for in a foolproof way. And SA is a damn fool, not matter which of these scenarios are true.

 

[Chikkamma]

Winkleman's point is that if the window didn't open, SA could not have put his head and upper body through the window. His job is to find RCCL responsible and held accountable for Chloe's death.

I am not sure that is Winkleman’s argument. The crux of the Wiegand’s lawsuit against RCCL (via Winkleman) is that there weren’t enough visual indications that the window was open, which led to SA “reasonably” believing that they were closed.

Just my opinion, but I think a “Well, he wouldn’t be able to dangle a baby out of the window if the windows couldn’t open” defense would be too silly even for Winkelman. That is why the contents of the lawsuit focuses on how RC did not provide enough indicators to let passengers know of this “hidden danger”. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[al66pine]

Colorblindness? Newly Diagnosed?

If SA has a trial, which would be the 2nd stupidest thing he ever did, who would be his defense witness list?
1. Doctor, verifying SA "color blindness". (Good luck finding one who is credible on that).
....

@micky2942 sbm

"1. Doctor, verifying SA "color blindness". (Good luck finding one who is credible on that).
Yes. If 50+ y/o had some form of colorblindness to the point that affected his everyday functioning, seems like it would have been diagnosed waaaay before his (Nov? Dec?) interview. And during the interview, he said (my paraphrasing): They told me the CBness could have caused it/had something to do with it. As if he himself did not realize he had CBness or that it could have been related.
{{ETA: And as posters said: even ppl w the most extreme colorblindless can distinguish shades of gray, like gray (the green-blue tinted glass) from no color (window frame w no glass there). Colorblindness is not a reason for failure to distinguish no glass from tinted glass.}}

 

[Forever Young]

Colorblindness? Newly Diagnosed?
@micky2942 sbm

"1. Doctor, verifying SA "color blindness". (Good luck finding one who is credible on that).
Yes. If 50+ y/o had some form of colorblindness to the point that affected his everyday functioning, seems like it would have been diagnosed waaaay before his (Nov? Dec?) interview. And during the interview, he said (my paraphrasing): They told me the CBness could have caused it/had something to do with it. As if he himself did not realize he had CBness or that it could have been related.

He is in IT, correct? You would think that the ability to discern color would have come up early on. Did he ever mention it to his co-workers, "hey, I am having a hard time seeing the green font"?

But I agree. His demeanor suggests he was having a hard time believing that himself.

 

[SaguaroSpirit]

He is in IT, correct? You would think that the ability to discern color would have come up early on. Did he ever mention it to his co-workers, "hey, I am having a hard time seeing the green font"?

But I agree. His demeanor suggests he was having a hard time believing that himself.

Sounds like Winkie is just throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks.

 

[IceIce9]

He is in IT, correct? You would think that the ability to discern color would have come up early on. Did he ever mention it to his co-workers, "hey, I am having a hard time seeing the green font"?

But I agree. His demeanor suggests he was having a hard time believing that himself.

It wouldn’t matter if he was color blind or legally blind, he would have known the window was open when he leaned out. Twice.

 

[fabvab]

Colorblindness? Newly Diagnosed?
@micky2942 sbm

"1. Doctor, verifying SA "color blindness". (Good luck finding one who is credible on that).
Yes. If 50+ y/o had some form of colorblindness to the point that affected his everyday functioning, seems like it would have been diagnosed waaaay before his (Nov? Dec?) interview. And during the interview, he said (my paraphrasing): They told me the CBness could have caused it/had something to do with it. As if he himself did not realize he had CBness or that it could have been related.
{{ETA: And as posters said: even ppl w the most extreme colorblindless can distinguish shades of gray, like gray (the green-blue tinted glass) from no color (window frame w no glass there). Colorblindness is not a reason for failure to distinguish no glass from tinted glass.}}

An ophthalmologist can verify color blindness, but I doubt their testimony would help prove his innocence.

 

[they'll get you]

Good point. I forgot cell phones work on cruise liners. The last time I took a cruise, there were no cell phones, lol.

Cell phones work in port.

 

[Forever Young]

Winkleman's point is that if the window didn't open, SA could not have put his head and upper body through the window. His job is to find RCCL responsible and held accountable for Chloe's death.

I took it to mean that the video may look that way, but he did not in fact have his head past the ledge of the window.

ETA: This was the point of the article stating that the depth of the opening could not be discerned in the video.

 

[they'll get you]

She was probably thinking she'd be gone for just a few minutes and (subconsciously) what could possibly go wrong in a few minutes?

Your post hit me in the guts.
I can’t imagine the shock.

 

[Forever Young]

An ophthalmologist can verify color blindness, but I doubt their testimony would help prove his innocence.

I agree he was negligent, but color-blindness might play into to what degree he was negligent, if the idea is to show that RCCL is responsible for some it, too.

 

[justbreathe]

@Safeguard sbm bbm Thank you for posting this.
Yes, bbm is the point: AW & KSW's soc media may have given atty-W some ideas, pix, etc for use in civil suit.
Of course, AW & KSW undoubtedly provided lots of info to atty-W, a look thru their soc media - before they scrubbed any (if they did scrub or edit) - could have sparked the banging-on-glass and other ideas atty W has run up the flagpole.
Thanks agn.

I think the bang on glass story was peddled around well before anyone saw the video.

But perhaps Chloe did think it was glass and lunged forward, and down she went. So SA went with “I thought there was glass...”

I think it might have gone better for him if he just said he remembered nothing.

 

[they'll get you]

It’s sad because I used to respect him, but I think CBS’s David Begnaud outright lied about what was on the video. Perhaps Winkleman made him sign something that would limit what he says about the video… I don’t know. But Begnaud was not honest about how damning it was- and his defensive response after the video leak proved this.

I don’t know this David Begnaud but many in Aus would advertise anything for $$$.

 

[justbreathe]

Why wouldn't he be? There are a ton of possible things his wife could have busy doing; it was reported the rest of the family were in the dining area, SA was asked by Chloe's mom, to look after her so she could attend to a issue that arose.

Why must his wife also need to go with him?

Although it's a pity, she didn't, but a single adult looking after a single child, (one on one ratio) is not unusual.

For some reason I imagine this going down as someone comes to the family while they were in the dining area, whatever, about Chloe’s arrangements in their cabin, SA says, “Oh, I’ll go get her,” and he finds KW and offers to watch Chloe while mom goes to speak with cabin steward.

I wonder about the circumstances next. SA falls and screams, somehow the son gets over there first (because he was in the pool?), then son tells mom “something happened to Chloe,” mom screams, “take me to my baby, where is my baby,” someone says she went out the window, crew attempts to restrain her, she looks down (never once confused about where or what “invisible” window they meant) and saw concrete. KW’s mother says upon arriving, “who has an open window on the 11th floor?” SA is still mumbling “I thought there was glass, I thought it was like a hockey game.”

Police arrive, SA won’t answer questions or submit to blood test, KW and AW refuse to watch video, and then everyone is sedated and gets brought to hotel room provided by RC.

 

[justbreathe]

Really? Where could she have gone in that entirely closed area. Her toddling about looked perfectly fine to me. He was right behind her, watching her every move. Even when he looked out the window, he did so for 8 seconds, and she was right there beside him.

Sadly it was his movement that needed supervision.

And sadly, he clearly was *not* responsible enough to watch a toddler on his own.

 

[Chikkamma]

It wouldn’t matter if he was color blind or legally blind, he would have known the window was open when he leaned out. Twice.

*IF* his head or arm went past the window pane. His head would have to have traversed an 18” gap to go outside of the window. I think it did and SA knows he will have to explain that fact, which is why he said the window was “further out than I expected it to be” in the Begnaud interview.