IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #28

[AbbeyR]

Hi, friends. I've been away for the summer, but haven't stopped thinking about Lauren. Glad to see you are all still here posting and keeping the conversation and questions going. Sad that (apart from the White river fiasco) there doesn't appear to be much news about Lauren or progress with the investigation. Well, at least from the news sources -- off to catch up on what the WS'ers have been chatting about!

:seeya: Abbey

 

[Jacobite]

Some of us certainly would get better grades than others if this was Creative Writing Class. But, this is not an English lesson. It's a crime. And, this headline does not give me confidence that this case is going to be solved soon. http://www.lohud.com/article/20120905/NEWS02/309050090/Lauren-Spierer-disappearance-Cops-explore-rape-attempt-near-Indiana-U-campus-has-any-connection

 

[Jupiter812]

I kind of wish they just would go ahead and search it for good measure. Get it out of the way and off the table.

Slightly O/T: so I may not should even say this, it's a little odd. But, anyway. I have absolutely no real basis for my thinking here, (aside from the fact that I've acted like a weirdo by checking every inch of ZO's web presence I could possibly find, but that isn't really a real basis, but I just don't get a vibe from him that he is the type of guy to do this sort of thing. I know he is alleged to be somewhat of a criminal and a drug dealer but for some reason I just read him as a guy that wouldn't be involved in this kind of thing. Again, I have no idea why when I really don't even know at all. BUT. I get the exact opposite vibes from JR and MB. Again I'm not sure why. Maybe it's some sort of physiological reaction to the details of their socio-economic placement. I'm unsure, and I'm also unsure if my subtle unconscious response leads me around by the nose into directions that are pointless. I should probably be studied. On the University level. By and entire team of Doctors.
If they ever end up finding LS in ZO's lake I think I'll volunteer for exactly that.
I did have a point though, after reading all the percentages up thread I started wondering if I'm as odd as I think or if vibes about individual POI's or suspects play a significant role in the direction people take their theories. I wonder about that because I think I'd be more inclined to really consider a theory I might otherwise dismiss if the theorist let me know that their theory was based at least to some degree in their intuition. Obviously, one can't run around replacing facts for vibes all willy nilly, but how much credence should they play, I wonder.

Don't worry, you're not abnormal. There is something to said for instinct and intuition; however it's more reliable if you've met the person F2F. The brain does what it wants to do sometimes--constructs thoughts, opinions and memories based on all that input, some of it subliminal.

With Google, FB, forums and boards like this one and PT, it is easy to get caught up in an endless loop on the Internet.

 

[akh]

Some of us certainly would get better grades than others if this was Creative Writing Class. But, this is not an English lesson. It's a crime. And, this headline does not give me confidence that this case is going to be solved soon. http://www.lohud.com/article/20120905/NEWS02/309050090/Lauren-Spierer-disappearance-Cops-explore-rape-attempt-near-Indiana-U-campus-has-any-connection

Look how quickly BPD released a sketch of this person but never released one of the 'mystery man' sighting by the 3:38AM witness.

It just boggles my mind that in a case with obviously so little to go on that a composite released to the public never happened. Since they claim no video to corroborate the report you'd think that would mean they cannot be certain they know who it was. It almost would seem to mean someone has come forth stating that was them (either a different couple entirely or else someone known in LS' case), or else LE just does not consider this witness credible.

Or did LE say they couldn't corroborate the time with any video (but maybe they can corroborate the report with a different time??)? LE was so vague and ambiguous that it's hard to know what they were really saying.

I suppose there's the chance the witness just couldn't recall the detail for a composite sketch but the Gatto interview seems to indicate otherwise.

Any other reason anyone can think of for LE not to release a composite sketch of the mystery man?

 

[friendsara]

Look how quickly BPD released a sketch of this person but never released one of the 'mystery man' sighting by the 3:38AM witness.

It just boggles my mind that in a case with obviously so little to go on that a composite released to the public never happened. Since they claim no video to corroborate the report you'd think that would mean they cannot be certain they know who it was. It almost would seem to mean someone has come forth stating that was them (either a different couple entirely or else someone known in LS' case), or else LE just does not consider this witness credible.

Or did LE say they couldn't corroborate the time with any video (but maybe they can corroborate the report with a different time??)? LE was so vague and ambiguous that it's hard to know what they were really saying.

I suppose there's the chance the witness just couldn't recall the detail for a composite sketch but the Gatto interview seems to indicate otherwise.

Any other reason anyone can think of for LE not to release a composite sketch of the mystery man?

Crazy conspiracy theory explanation that I mostly don't believe: the police know that ZO is the perpetrator, with AB as an accomplice and the mystery man, and they won't arrest ZO because he's a confidential informant.

 

[friendsara]

Or they have already ID'd the mystery man and are either building a case against him or know he isn't involved.

 

[SeeingForThe1stTime]

Crazy conspiracy theory explanation that I mostly don't believe: the police know that ZO is the perpetrator, with AB as an accomplice and the mystery man, and they won't arrest ZO because he's a confidential informant.

Interesting. Can you summarize your theory for me? I mean, I know about the ZO being a confidential informant, but I'd really like to hear the rest of your theory. If you don't mind. A link back to another post is fine if you've already posted it. Thanks!

 

[Ros]

Look how quickly BPD released a sketch of this person but never released one of the 'mystery man' sighting by the 3:38AM witness.

It just boggles my mind that in a case with obviously so little to go on that a composite released to the public never happened. Since they claim no video to corroborate the report you'd think that would mean they cannot be certain they know who it was. It almost would seem to mean someone has come forth stating that was them (either a different couple entirely or else someone known in LS' case), or else LE just does not consider this witness credible.

Or did LE say they couldn't corroborate the time with any video (but maybe they can corroborate the report with a different time??)? LE was so vague and ambiguous that it's hard to know what they were really saying.

I suppose there's the chance the witness just couldn't recall the detail for a composite sketch but the Gatto interview seems to indicate otherwise.

Any other reason anyone can think of for LE not to release a composite sketch of the mystery man?

I suspect that there is a camera covering the steps at 10th and College. LE saw LS and CR at those steps and concluded that since the video at 3:38 did not show LS at that time, the bar manager must have been mistaken on two counts: 1) the time and 2) that the man was not CR. Since they were confident in their identification of CR on video, there was no reason to release a sketch.

So here are the questions still in my mind:

1) is it possible that the timestamp on the camera was not moved forward for daylight savings time?
2) Is it possible that the camera does not cover the whole area at 10th and College and LS and mystery man were in the area but out of camera range at 3:38?
3) Could the bar manager have read the clock wrong and it was 2:38?

 

[akh]

Like I said earlier, if the bar manager is wrong on the time why couldn't the sighting just as easily be 4:38AM?

 

[friendsara]

Interesting. Can you summarize your theory for me? I mean, I know about the ZO being a confidential informant, but I'd really like to hear the rest of your theory. If you don't mind. A link back to another post is fine if you've already posted it. Thanks!

Oh, I don't really have a theory beyond what I wrote in that first post - no sense of what their motivations to hurt LS could have been, no idea why the police would have been so bent on covering for ZO exactly because I don't totally understand what a confidential informancy entails. Really, I'm just repeating a version of what others (chick justin I think, maybe others on the JRNTT comment boards) have said.

 

[friendsara]

Some of us certainly would get better grades than others if this was Creative Writing Class. But, this is not an English lesson. It's a crime. And, this headline does not give me confidence that this case is going to be solved soon. http://www.lohud.com/article/20120905/NEWS02/309050090/Lauren-Spierer-disappearance-Cops-explore-rape-attempt-near-Indiana-U-campus-has-any-connection

Honestly, I don't think the police comment about this case's potential relationship to LS reveals very much. It's not like the police called the media and said, "Hey, we just wanted to let you know that we have no idea if this guy could have attacked Lauren." The media contacted the police, who had to give the pat answer that they are investigating any connection between this incident and LS although they have no reason to believe the two are related. What else are they going to say? "Actually we already have a pretty good idea of who killed Lauren but we don't have enough evidence to prosecute, so there's probably no connection here" ? Idk. I'm just saying...this doesn't indicate that the police have no leads and we should be hopeless.

 

[Jacobite]

Honestly, I don't think the police comment about this case's potential relationship to LS reveals very much. It's not like the police called the media and said, "Hey, we just wanted to let you know that we have no idea if this guy could have attacked Lauren." The media contacted the police, who had to give the pat answer that they are investigating any connection between this incident and LS although they have no reason to believe the two are related. What else are they going to say? "Actually we already have a pretty good idea of who killed Lauren but we don't have enough evidence to prosecute, so there's probably no connection here" ? Idk. I'm just saying...this doesn't indicate that the police have no leads and we should be hopeless.

Honestly, I doubt the stories have any connection. But, they are not sure of this and the new newspaper story makes it seem Bloomington has a serial attacker on the loose. Had the police denied a connection, this would not be national news.

 

[Jacobite]

Oh, I don't really have a theory beyond what I wrote in that first post - no sense of what their motivations to hurt LS could have been, no idea why the police would have been so bent on covering for ZO exactly because I don't totally understand what a confidential informancy entails. Really, I'm just repeating a version of what others (chick justin I think, maybe others on the JRNTT comment boards) have said.

The legend of ZO may be BS and here's why. ZO and AB cooperated with the police. They did not hire lawyers. Also, they would have had to duck and avoid numerous cameras to intercept Lauren before 5 N. Ducking cams doesn't seem to be ZO's MO that night. The truth we seek and we will find it.

 

[Jacobite]

Where did the 3rd fall come in?

1) Falling over slamming head onto to concrete (so it could be heard by a witness) from a sitting position at 10th and College.
2) Falling down face first without hands blocking the fall into gravel lot after exiting Alley
3) ??

OK, let's look at this because it appears to be syncope which can be fatal in Long QT. Lauren's mom says Lauren was on the floor at Smallwood and needed emergency care. Lauren next falls backwards on the steps at 10th and College. She falls again as she heads for the alley. Next she again falls on the last cam near 10th and College Village. Right after this we find she is in an area where a dog lost her live scent. This is enough to make one suspect she may have fallen as many as 5 times in 10 minutes and the last syncope event was fatal.

 

[akh]

The legend of ZO may be BS and here's why. ZO and AB cooperated with the police. They did not hire lawyers. Also, they would have had to duck and avoid numerous cameras to intercept Lauren before 5 N. Ducking cams doesn't seem to be ZO's MO that night. The truth we seek and we will find it.

But someone apparently managed to avoid cameras when they needed to unfortunately...

 

[Jacobite]

However, Syncope is rarely fatal. Usually, one's heart returns to a normal beat and all is well. This info could make JR's account valid. It is a tracking dog that points to the contrary.

 

[Jacobite]

But someone apparently managed to avoid cameras when they needed to unfortunately...

The people who committed this crime foiled and escaped all modern technology. I don't think the police were counting on that. Dogs might have given more information though. A dog still might find her.

And, of course, I am making an assumption that the dog trail is from Smallwood and ends before 5 N while she is in the care of CR. I am assuming this is the reason why RS calls CR a liar and coward.

 

[akh]

I've been curious about the use of tracking dogs and what might or might not have been gleaned from them. Can they differentiate recent trails from older trails when tracking? Knowing how much college students walk, and that they were in the general area of her home and nightlife area I'd think her scent would be in a lot of places. Enough to potentially be confusing certainly.

 

[akh]

The people who committed this crime foiled and escaped all modern technology. I don't think the police were counting on that. Dogs might have given more information though. A dog still might find her.

And, of course, I am making an assumption that the dog trail is from Smallwood and ends before 5 N while she is in the care of CR. I am assuming this is the reason why RS calls CR a liar and coward.

It's just so hard to believe that if CR alone was the responsible party for whatever transpired that he could convince MB and JR to become accessories.

But by the same token, maybe it was hard for MB and JR to believe CR would ever be involved in a crime of this magnitude and they simply agreed to lie for him before they realized the seriousness of the situation (when they still expected her to be found safe and sound at a friends)? IOW, their story was crafted to protect CR from a jealous boyfriend or something initially, not a foul play scenario.... But once they told the story they were stuck to it.

That's still hard for me to believe that way as well. I could see it to a point but once things become serious and you realize she's really missing (foul play suspected) and a friend could be involved (and he's now involved you) you'd think they'd open up fairly quickly rather than be dragged down too. Especially if they had no involvement.

Unless they really believe their friend to be innocent I suppose.... That would be really bad judgment and hard to believe their attorneys wouldn't have discussed that scenario and implored them to cut bait if that was the case.

 

[Ros]

I've been reading various web pages about using dogs to find live or dead people. It seems that if the rumor is true that a dog indicated that a dead body had been in the dumpster at 5N, that really would not mean anything because such dogs will also find other sources of decomposing human or porcine body scent from body parts or from body fluids. The dog could have been indicating the presence of diapers or rotten hot dogs.

http://crimefictioncollective.blogspot.com/2012/06/tracking-scent-vs-decomp-searchwhats.html

It also means that a dog might not be able to distinguish between CR's vomit and something else.